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Posted: 4/8/2016 4:54:18 PM EDT
For me at least, it was a good idea to first take Dr. Bill Donohue's "Cliff Notes" summary from the Catholic League as a start:

Pope Proves Flexible Within Limits

"Thanks!" Dr. Bill!

And for the full text, grab your fav cup of coffee or tea, settle back, and enjoy all 264 pages! (I'm a very slow reader--not done by a long shot!)

The Joy of Love

Link Posted: 4/10/2016 8:22:24 AM EDT
Thanks for posting!
Link Posted: 4/12/2016 1:29:36 PM EDT
Donohue is a hack who will parrot whatever the hierarchy puts out because they butter his bread. This document is an absolute disaster and will further undermine the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Confession as any sin can now be excused away.  This pope is finding positive aspects in adultery and cohabitation; now he's defending Judas as a "repentant man.'  I guess Jesus got it wrong when He stated "It would be better for him (Judas) had he never been born."

A better article here:
http://theweek.com/articles/617324/cowardice-hubris-pope-francis

Good quote from the article: "This supposed paean to love is something much sadder. A Church so anxious to include and accept you that it must deny the faith that transforms and renews you. It admits that God's commands are not just beyond our reach, but possibly destructive to follow."
Link Posted: 4/12/2016 8:47:15 PM EDT
Short and to the point:1Peter5
Link Posted: 4/12/2016 8:51:06 PM EDT
Thanks to all for the different post. It reminds me in a way of what Jesus said about those who haven't sinned cast the first stone.
Link Posted: 4/14/2016 2:16:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2016 7:47:30 AM EDT by TWIRE]


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Originally Posted By OD-Man:



Donohue is a hack who will parrot whatever the hierarchy puts out because they butter his bread. This document is an absolute disaster and will further undermine the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Confession as any sin can now be excused away.  This pope is finding positive aspects in adultery and cohabitation; now he's defending Judas as a "repentant man.'  I guess Jesus got it wrong when He stated "It would be better for him (Judas) had he never been born."





A better article here:


http://theweek.com/articles/617324/cowardice-hubris-pope-francis





Good quote from the article: "This supposed paean to love is something much sadder. A Church so anxious to include and accept you that it must deny the faith that transforms and renews you. It admits that God's commands are not just beyond our reach, but possibly destructive to follow."
View Quote
I have to agree. The same thing happened with Vatican II. Priests and bishops, given the opportunity to 'be flexible' simply contorted the teaching to their liking. Its a dangerous precedent.





 
Link Posted: 4/14/2016 3:05:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2016 9:14:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2016 9:15:37 PM EDT by OD-Man]
Jesus: "If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

Pope Francis: "305. For this reason, a pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws to those living in “irregular” situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives. This would bespeak the closed heart of one used to hiding behind the Church’s teachings, “sitting on the chair of Moses and judging at times with superiority and superficiality difficult cases and wounded families”.

"304. It is reductive simply to consider whether or not an individual’s actions correspond to a general law or rule, because that is not enough to discern and ensure full fidelity to God in the concrete life of a human being."

Sunday Sermon

AL explained in 2 minutes  (Amoris Laetitia)

An orthodox, believing Catholic must reject this document, just as you would have had to reject Arianism 17 centuries ago when Pope Liberius almost fell under its sway.
Link Posted: 4/14/2016 10:00:59 PM EDT
What a mess.
Link Posted: 4/15/2016 7:57:07 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By BushBoar:





  The part in that article about how people assured themselves post-Vatican II that the novus ordo would maintain Latin and Gregorian chants really hit home for me.

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Originally Posted By BushBoar:



Originally Posted By TWIRE:


Originally Posted By OD-Man:

Donohue is a hack who will parrot whatever the hierarchy puts out because they butter his bread. This document is an absolute disaster and will further undermine the Sacraments of Holy Communion and Confession as any sin can now be excused away.  This pope is finding positive aspects in adultery and cohabitation; now he's defending Judas as a "repentant man.'  I guess Jesus got it wrong when He stated "It would be better for him (Judas) had he never been born."



A better article here:

http://theweek.com/articles/617324/cowardice-hubris-pope-francis



Good quote from the article: "This supposed paean to love is something much sadder. A Church so anxious to include and accept you that it must deny the faith that transforms and renews you. It admits that God's commands are not just beyond our reach, but possibly destructive to follow."
I have agree. The same thing happened with Vatican II. Priests and bishops, given the opportunity to 'be flexible' simply contorted the teaching to their liking. Its a dangerous precedent.

 


  The part in that article about how people assured themselves post-Vatican II that the novus ordo would maintain Latin and Gregorian chants really hit home for me.

You know, when I finally read the Vatican II documents myself, and saw that indeed Latin was to the language of choice, the Gregorian chant was to be the form, and that the organ was the desired musical accompaniment, I too was shocked to consider just how far the Novus Ordo had strayed from its original intent. Yeah, here I am playing guitars and such in Church and singing hymns in a semi-contemporary fashion, then I read those documents. I also realized how many other things in the mass are not rubrics. I was/am embarrassed to a certain extent. I'm not PPX or a true traditionalist, much less Sede Vacante, but I can empathize with them conceptually. I disagree with their modus though. When you pick up your ball and take the game elsewhere, you become just another protestant.



 
Link Posted: 4/15/2016 8:02:46 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By OD-Man:


Jesus: "If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15



Pope Francis: "305. For this reason, a pastor cannot feel that it is enough simply to apply moral laws to those living in "irregular” situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives. This would bespeak the closed heart of one used to hiding behind the Church’s teachings, "sitting on the chair of Moses and judging at times with superiority and superficiality difficult cases and wounded families”.



"304. It is reductive simply to consider whether or not an individual’s actions correspond to a general law or rule, because that is not enough to discern and ensure full fidelity to God in the concrete life of a human being."



Sunday Sermon



AL explained in 2 minutes  (Amoris Laetitia)



An orthodox, believing Catholic must reject this document, just as you would have had to reject Arianism 17 centuries ago when Pope Liberius almost fell under its sway.
View Quote
Respect. Okay, yes. But its not an ex cathedra pronunciation. So respect and contemplation is as far as it goes. Francis is a Jesuit. I find little of this 'unexpected.' The damage is not in the words themselves but in the way the media will spin them and how liberal and cafeteria Catholics, already rampant entities in our fold, will apply themselves having read this encyclical.



 
Link Posted: 4/15/2016 9:04:24 AM EDT
Respect. Okay, yes. But its not an ex cathedra pronunciation. So respect and contemplation is as far as it goes. Francis is a Jesuit. I find little of this 'unexpected.' The damage is not in the words themselves but in the way the media will spin them and how liberal and cafeteria Catholics, already rampant entities in our fold, will apply themselves having read this encyclical.



Just to be clear....I said REJECT, not "respect"!    
Link Posted: 4/15/2016 9:18:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2016 9:25:30 AM EDT by BushBoar]
Link Posted: 4/15/2016 9:44:35 AM EDT
BushBoar:  Congrats on your little one!  We just had our first baptized in the EF back in February. It's a very beautiful rite and is so crystal clear that what is happening is kicking the devil in the butt and giving this child to the Lord. So very different from the Methodist baptisms my wife and I had. Best of luck to you!

Regarding the Novus Ordo, I believe the NO mass celebrated as the council intended could be quite beautiful, but I've never seen it.  Even the hardcore Extraordinary Form parishes I have attended make concessions when celebrating the NO (very little Latin, versus populum), I presume to not bring any scrutiny from the diocese which can sadly be hostile to tradition. Still, having access to the EF is such a welcome oasis in this desert of novelty.
Link Posted: 4/15/2016 10:38:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/16/2016 7:41:30 PM EDT
Send your thanks you's to the Benedictines who championed the liturgical movement and mass in the vernacular.

The 70's were tumultuous times. After Vatican II council was held, there was hope for a spiritual renewal of the church. It was felt that the church would hold more appeal if they understood the mass.

I remember my parents being super angry at my first communion and we were made to leave. It was held at a guitar mass. They sang Bridge Over Troubled Water.



I do feel as a result of the changes that people are far more casual about church in general. We have lost that sense of sacredness it used  to have.

Our family attended the Tridentine masses. I never understood the need to alter the mass. If you raise your family

in the language of the family, they will understand. I remember the heated arguments with the local priest when we stopped attending St. James. He threatened to have us excommunicated for disobedience and attending the Tridentine

mass. That priest taught me my first bible verse. Matt 18:18.. He preached it. He also used the fact that when the apostles received the Holy Spirit they spoke in the native tongues of all  understood and there were many conversions.

The changes in the church from 1970 were painful and this is etched in my mind. Every now and again I slip in a Tridentine mass down in Hanceville.



One more word about music and church. I truly believe my talents are God given and they benefit no one if they are not shared. Is the organ and chant the ONLY music that should be at a mass? I used to sing and play in large Cathedrals. Sometimes the choirs were overwhelming and became the focal point of the mass. (Organ solos at St. Peter and Chains.... we couldn't wait for them to end and having 6 siblings meant lots of innocuous smashing of fingers and elbows wars in the pew while piously kneeling with bowed head and biting the inside of our cheeks to keep from laughing and alerting our parents who would punish us severely.)  

While I love the Latin and will always, if the music puts sacred first, is aligned scripturally with the Liturgy of the Word, if the music doesn't "overtake" the mass, and those who serve understand this... and musicians aren't about making it a performance, then we are serving God and not ourselves. The group I have the honor of singing with places those things first and we keep ourselves in check. The goals always is make it sacred.



There is nothing written about organs in the bible.



We all know HARPS  trumpets, pipes Lutes horns and  flutes are.... So guitars are modern lutes!



But some seriously holy and heavenly sounds come from the CELLO ... "cough" when it's played right.... just saying...

Cello's are played in heaven.







Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:07:46 AM EDT
264 pages with a bunch of Latin terms?  This makes it as complicated as a Supreme Court decision.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 8:41:07 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ar15eric:
264 pages with a bunch of Latin terms?  This makes it as complicated as a Supreme Court decision.
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When it first came out I said to myself, "you know what? I'm going to read this thing in full and draw my own conclusions instead of letting the media do it for me."  Then I saw it was 264 pages and said "lol screw that."  That's just nuts. When I am pope, every document I release will be one page double spaced in the format of question and answer with only yes or no answers.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 1:20:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ar15eric:
264 pages with a bunch of Latin terms?  This makes it as complicated as a Supreme Court decision.
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But much more important
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 1:21:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:



When it first came out I said to myself, "you know what? I'm going to read this thing in full and draw my own conclusions instead of letting the media do it for me."  Then I saw it was 264 pages and said "lol screw that."  That's just nuts. When I am pope, every document I release will be one page double spaced in the format of question and answer with only yes or no answers.
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Originally Posted By Milsurpninja:
Originally Posted By ar15eric:
264 pages with a bunch of Latin terms?  This makes it as complicated as a Supreme Court decision.



When it first came out I said to myself, "you know what? I'm going to read this thing in full and draw my own conclusions instead of letting the media do it for me."  Then I saw it was 264 pages and said "lol screw that."  That's just nuts. When I am pope, every document I release will be one page double spaced in the format of question and answer with only yes or no answers.

If you became the Pope you'd read it all. Because you'd know it'd make you a much better person.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:22:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By artman54:

But much more important
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Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ar15eric:
264 pages with a bunch of Latin terms?  This makes it as complicated as a Supreme Court decision.

But much more important

I have to respectfully disagree. The job of a Christian teacher is to make the complicated simple, not to make the simple complicated.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:20:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ar15eric:

I have to respectfully disagree. The job of a Christian teacher is to make the complicated simple, not to make the simple complicated.
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Originally Posted By ar15eric:
Originally Posted By artman54:
Originally Posted By ar15eric:
264 pages with a bunch of Latin terms?  This makes it as complicated as a Supreme Court decision.

But much more important

I have to respectfully disagree. The job of a Christian teacher is to make the complicated simple, not to make the simple complicated.

The job of the Pope is to be a leader, and teacher, for all peoples. So, if he says it in 10 words or 10,000 it doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 1:21:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2016 1:22:08 PM EDT by OD-Man]
This document is so verbose because it helps hide the "time bombs" that will undermine doctrine while maintaining a veneer of orthodoxy. When asked if AL changed  the discipline that governs the access to the Sacraments for the divorced and remarried; are there new concrete possibilities, that did not exist before the publication of the Exhortation or no?

Francis stated: "I can say yes. Period." He then references Cardinal Schönborn’s explanation of AL as definitive.  THIS. DOCUMENT. IS. A. DISASTER.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 10:00:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By OD-Man:
This document is so verbose because it helps hide the "time bombs" that will undermine doctrine while maintaining a veneer of orthodoxy. When asked if AL changed  the discipline that governs the access to the Sacraments for the divorced and remarried; are there new concrete possibilities, that did not exist before the publication of the Exhortation or no?

Francis stated: "I can say yes. Period." He then references Cardinal Schönborn’s explanation of AL as definitive.  THIS. DOCUMENT. IS. A. DISASTER.
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Cardinal Schonborn's explination is a mess itself. See Father Z's blog posts on his statements.

I'm just going to treat this like the left treats Humanae Vitae and ignore it. And since Pope Francis et al said this needs to be read with Familiaris Consortio by JP2, I'm just gonna stick with that since JP2 laid out all this stuff anyway.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:50:27 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Spade:




Cardinal Schonborn's explination is a mess itself. See Father Z's blog posts on his statements.



I'm just going to treat this like the left treats Humanae Vitae and ignore it. And since Pope Francis et al said this needs to be read with Familiaris Consortio by JP2, I'm just gonna stick with that since JP2 laid out all this stuff anyway.
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Familiaris Consortio is very definitive.



 
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 7:21:16 PM EDT
Note that  Pope Francis' Apostolic Exhortation doesn't even quote Familiaris Consortio accurately or honestly when he references it. He may have canonized JPII but Francis is not above manipulating him for his own ends.
Link Posted: 4/21/2016 5:33:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OD-Man:
Note that  Pope Francis' Apostolic Exhortation doesn't even quote Familiaris Consortio accurately or honestly when he references it. He may have canonized JPII but Francis is not above manipulating him for his own ends.
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Well, they did that at the synod too. Quoting just enough JP2 and then cutting out the second part of a sentence they didn't like.
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