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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:19:34 PM EDT
I just was watching the History Channel's show on sugar production, and in the last 15 minutes, they highlighted how sugar has been used in Brazil to provide an alternative to gasoline.
Prices they were showing were FULLY HALF that of gas. Cars that were GM branded are Flex-Fuel capable, from 100% gas to 100% alcohol, AND IT'S BEEN LIKE THIS FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS. Yet the silly f*ckers in the Oil Industry whine that it's the "environmentalists' fault," "it's the consumers' fault," "it's EVERYONE'S FAULT BUT OURS." Oh, BTW, these last two years have been the highest-grossing profit years in the oil industry in recorded history. I'm sure that's no motivation - none at all - for them to stifle other innovative alternatives to fuel manufacturing. 
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:22:17 PM EDT
[#1]
"Alcohol - the cause of, and solution to all of life's problems."
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:23:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Alcohol has pulled me out of many a malaise.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:23:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Alcohol pulls us out of all of life's malaises.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:24:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Alcohol can help and so can vegetable oil.
I run gasahol and soydiesel. Future gas engine vehicles will run on E-85 (85% alcohol). |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:25:43 PM EDT
[#5]
If you drink enough you will be alright till you wake up. Trust me i try
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:26:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Works for me, especially Bourbon.
DanM |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:27:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Lacohol and mayonaise?
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:28:40 PM EDT
[#8]
All means of producing ethanol from carbohydrates requires distillation which in itself requires a lot of energy. What are you going to use to run the distillation process? Natural gas? Coal? Much better to use these for other synthetic fuels.
The energy required to grow the crops, harvest and refine grain into ethanol exceeds the energy produced. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:29:18 PM EDT
[#9]
Ethanol and other so-called "alternative" fuel lose their cost advantage right away when the feed stock is no longer subsidized. Using Brazil as a model for ANYTHING except unchecked corruption is a mistake.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:30:49 PM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:31:25 PM EDT
[#11]
If it means getting so blasted that one cannot start a vehicle and thereby not use up precious gasoline…
Yes, it can.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:31:52 PM EDT
[#12]
I never had an alcohol fueled vehicle on the dyno, but I don't believe they would pass our extremely tight federal emmissions test. I would love to get one in the shop to run it on the emmissions dyno to see the numbers for myself.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:32:56 PM EDT
[#13]
We'll continue this conversation later....
I'm going to the bar... which I can't afford, but my buddy's band is playing. - BG PS. Relying on an agricultural product for fuel is BAD JU JU! |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:34:19 PM EDT
[#14]
 hic, now where the hell did the Sex and Violins thread go........... |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:34:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Ethanol production isn't profitable even when funded by the gov't thanks to the lobbying efforts of the motherfuckers at ADM, a vile company indeed. I'd say Decatur Il. should be nuked if it weren't for the collateral damage amongst the innocents.
Bottom line, it is relatively expensive to produce for the BTU's you get. Oil still works. I hate ADM, btw....and I am a naive sucker who mostly defends Corporate Amercia, except ADM. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:48:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Who are ADM and what did they do?
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Posted: 9/14/2005 6:51:46 PM EDT
[#17]
They are actively working to get a part of everything you eat or drink, anywhere in the world. They are the #1 food merchant on the planet, bigger than Cargill and Bunge combined. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:02:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Well, let's not get crazy here. ADM, while quite a bit bigger than Bunge, is not even CLOSE to the juggernaut known as Cargill. Cargill is the largest privately held company in the world and dwarfs ADM. Last I heard through the grapevine, which was quite some time ago...Cargill as worth about 100 billion. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:04:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Are these the fucksticks that made it so my beloved coke has corn syrup as a sweetener instead of actual cane sugar? It is a good thing I grow most of what I eat, in three years I will grow everythign I eat, then these conglomerates can go fuck themselves |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:04:45 PM EDT
[#20]
Yeah, mmm, an oft-heard excuse by the "it's IMPOSSIBLE to find a better fuel than oil" "oil-bidness-apologist crowd."  ETA: SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE of this handy-dandy claim I keep seeing on ARFCOM, by the same defenders of the Oil Faith. You got linkee? |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:07:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Cargill is bigger than ADM and Bunge combined, probably even adding ConAgra to the others. They are, however, the biggest employer in Decatur, IL! 
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:07:58 PM EDT
[#22]
Many current ones do, including the engine in my Tahoe. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:10:18 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:11:15 PM EDT
[#24]
Before someone confuses the two (like they do in EVERY alternative energy thread), ethanol ≠ methanol.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:13:22 PM EDT
[#25]
As I understand it, there is some debate on this. Some university in Canada published a study claiming that ethanol could be made net positive. No source on this, just what I remember seeing. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:20:07 PM EDT
[#26]
In a nutshell, yes. ADM is the collective bunch of "better profits through legislation" assholes who pushed their corn based sweetener product down our legislators throats. A lot of their dirty deeds were done in the 80's under the Reagan Administration. While I have never been to Decatur, Il, I have heard in the town square of Decatur there is a big ol' statue of Ronald Reagan there as tribute to him, but it was really a tribute to the legislation he passed through pushed by ADM. Illinois has an ethanol additive to their gasoline...I think it is 10% by volume. Wonder why? Thank ADM...they pushed their product through. Nevermind the fact that the effective BTU rating of that fuel effectively makes it LESS economical to buy than normal, non-additive gasoline. Don't get me wrong, I am a capitalist at heart and generally defend Corprate America...but I loathe ADM and their quasi-socialist means. Die you fuckers, die. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:24:21 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:28:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Bought (buy) it from Hutterites from their fields that go to seed, then I plant and let my fields go partially to seed (keep about 1/3 into seed, rest gets ahrvested) that gives me my seed for the next season. It also gives me stuff to feed animals if they need the grains. I react to too much of this engineered poisoned crap |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:30:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Seriously. Stock up on Passover Coke. You'll thank me later! |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 7:34:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Yeah, I know. I need to lighten up. BUT...the only thing that pisses me off more than socialists, are socialists acting under a capitalist guise. I've never even had any direct business dealings with ADM...though I have had enough contact with employees and former employees, not to mention FBI moles within ADM (and no, my FBI mole comment, while legit, is not all that exotic as it may sound, so don't get all excited) to know that they are dirty. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:08:09 PM EDT
[#31]
I'm amazed to find so many Arfcommers who loyally pay homage to the Oil Gods.
You have to have some seriously disrupted synapses to not understand that oil companies are going to poo-poo any alternative to their black gold. Alcohol can be a viable alternative ...not just corn-based; there is sugar cane, and even sugar beets ( the former heavyweight of our sweettooth satiation). Ethanol is not the only contender, there is methanol....which can be formulated from methane capture of old coal mines or even harvested from landfills. Back during the last energy crisis, 10% blends of gasohol were everywhere. Phillips66 was a major seller and it was quite popular since it was at minimum .05-.10 / gallon cheaper than its competitors. And back during same energy crisis, farmers took advantage of getting permits to distill their own EtOH for "farm use"to cut energy costs....of course they had to prove they were denaturing the end product and not just fillin' mason jars. The USA can produce an astronomical amount of grain, so much so we give 1000's of tons away for free in " USAID" marked bags all over the world, every year for free....and we still have spoilage left over in the silos. Alcohol's biggest benifit isn't actually the BTU's , or the alternative to MTBE....it is the "OH SHIT" factor that looms in Exxon's boardroom and in OPEC's tent. Interesting how the internal combustion engine was first designed to run on alcohol....and that gasoline was actually a trash distillation extract in the production of kerosene back in the Standard Oil days. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:26:26 PM EDT
[#32]
tinfoil beanie time...
All of the major oil corporations ARE invested in alternative energy sources. Ethanol's part is a very MINOR and regional affair. Consider the 380 million gallons of gasoline used EACH DAY here in the US. To replace that, you would need over 2 billion pounds of carbohydrate PER DAY, be it corn, wheat, sugarcane or beets. All the same. Considering corn is about 60% recoverable carbohydrate suitable for ethanol production, you have a demand for corn that would not be sustainable. The US now produces 546 million pounds PER year. Or roughly about 7 hours of fuel. Think about THAT. We would need to farm corn on 1337 times as much area as currently done with the same production rate. And think about all the fertilizer needed. One thing that would be cheap would be distiller's dried grain although I don't know how well it would work as fertilizer because that would be the only use after every animal in the US was fed 10X over. I guess we could fatten pigs on it and after rendering all the edible parts, use to offal for bombing runs on jihadis.  |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:31:30 PM EDT
[#33]
I'm not sure how alcohol production from carbohydrate compares with drilling/extracting/transporting/refining oil. Both processes involve distillation and take energy to perform. Oil is superficially attractive as it is "free" if you can pump it out. At some price point, alcohol must become more financially attractive though... anyone know where that price point is ? Superficially, making alcohol from grain seems like the ultimate in solar energy. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:31:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Excellent response, one of the best non-hijack and non-idiot responses in this vein. I was listening to a fellow on the Dennis Prager show last week, (can't remember who he was), and he was saying that the Saudis experience a $1.50 cost per barrel to pull oil out of their stinking wells. If someone invents a technology that competes profitably at $55/bbl, they'll just lower the price to... $10/bbl, or even $53/bbl. So every time an alternative approach comes up, it gets squashed by market forces... controlled by Saudis, 'cause they hold the monopoly on cheap oil.  Too bad we can't just TAKE THE OIL, and give them LEAD in return. Joking. Merely JOKING! 
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Posted: 9/14/2005 8:37:56 PM EDT
[#35]
I hear this type of statement a lot - but why? Don't you think that "big oil", who already has the processes to distill and distribute many type of chemicals, would be a player in the alternate fuels market if it were economically viable? Is "big oil" trying to shut down the development of hybrid vehicles and battery technology? I'm still waiting for that "80 mpg carburetor" that was developed in the 1970s but was "stolen by the big oil companies that was in colusion with the giant evil automakers". |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 9:56:47 PM EDT
[#36]
A little physical chemistry here...alcohol from grain/sugarbeets/cane is via fermentation in WATER. At best, this is only 10% ethanol. Distilling this requires a minimum of two steps, the first yielding a 95% EtOH solution. The remaining 5% water is a BITCH to remove because it forms an azetrope, a fancy word for constant boiling point mix of solutions. You CANNOT simply distill the alcohol. Not so with petroleum. Nearly 100% of the crude is made into something that is sold. From the methane to the petroleum coke, it all has value. Only the tiny water fraction is waste that has no positive market value. Sure, distiller's dried grain HAS a current market price but if we were to make 300 million gallons of ethanol per day, the market price for DDG would take a plunge to worthlessness. Feeding animals would be much cheaper...but I doubt 2 billion pounds of corn PER DAY equivalent of DDG could be consumed per day. That is about 700 million pounds of DDG per day. That is enough to feed 30 million head of cattle ABOVE AND BEYOND what we have today. So, the distillation of crude is nearly 100% efficient in product form while ethanol is only 10%. Big difference. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:11:57 PM EDT
[#37]
OK, at least we're hearing FACTS. Cool. So how's Brazil doing it? If we just supplimented the gasoline supply by a fraction, say 25%, what would that do to the price of refined gasoline? |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:14:25 PM EDT
[#38]
Sure, until bad weather destroys the crops and prices sky rocket. A little of eachwould be the best choice.
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:19:52 PM EDT
[#39]
This is where I find it to be attractive. Essentially the energy that freely falls to Earth from the five-billion-year fusion reaction 93 million miles away is being stored in the cane/grain/beet, and being extracted after the growth process here takes place. The obvious question is, couldn't we simply harness that energy directly? Why does the answer have to be "yes" or "no?" Couldn't we develop technologies that derive power from a wide variety of sources so that we aren't fuxxored when one of the sources decides it Needs To Stop Selling Precious Resources To The Blue-Eyed Infidels? How about a car that uses solar cells to assist charging a large battery bank during sunny days while you're working, a plug-in source to take power off the grid during non-peak times at night, a flex-fuel motor that works with 100% gasoline to 100% alcohol in the hybrid car? |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:35:03 PM EDT
[#40]
sounds great till everyone is using it.
Just like Biodiseaol its great idea on paper when your the only one fighting over the old fry grease at mickey d's. Im thinking eventaly Fuel Cells of some sort will be the alternative in the long run. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:45:25 PM EDT
[#41]
BS-There is 70 operating ethonol refiners in the US right now with several more getting ready to be built. We have not built a new oil refinery since 1977. If several states were not using a SIGNIFICANT amount of ethonol now we would be in a bigger jam with oil than we are now. Try to buy 100 percent gasoline where I live. It cannot be found. It is all gasohol. There is nothing wrong with converting grain we give away to foreign countries into fuel. We are running surpluses every year with our crops. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:52:06 PM EDT
[#42]
All energy is solar. Fossil fuels are just fossilized solar energy. And drawing on the old Alpher, Bethe & Gammow paper, so is nuclear fission...it was fusion from the Big Bang that created fissile isotopes, save plutonium but that is derived from fission energy... What prevents a solar car? Money. It is still cheaper to use petroleum for the task at hand. Sure, drop the speed limits to allow safe passage of solar cars but that is absurd when oil is even $120 a barrel. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 10:57:38 PM EDT
[#43]
When ethanol is granted tax exemptions, it can compete. But oil is taxed from the moment it is withdrawn from the ground an as such, suffers on the price compared to ethanol. Ethanol has a limited market area as it is all splash blended at the tanker. There are no storage or pipeline transport facilities because of its tendency to absorb water. It has a shorter shelf life and requires special handling to prevent contamination. The slightest bit of water knocks the alcohol out of solution. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 11:08:31 PM EDT
[#44]
I dont know about the tax exceptions but I know a new ethonol refinery is being built about 90 miles from where I live. One thing to consider also is that newer farming methods rely much less on number of times needed to go over land in order to raise a crop. This reduces the amount of fuel needed to produce a crop. Ethonol isnt the cure all but it can help ease this shortage. (Editing disabled while spellchecking) Stop spell checking |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 11:20:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Those Ford Rangers with a the V6 motor will run on E85. A friend of mine has been running his on it and he says it does alright on 85 percent ethonol. Which reduces our consumption of foreign oil. Also ethonol burns cleaner than gas. Denver Colo. requires E10 in the winter months. |
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Posted: 9/14/2005 11:20:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Yes, I AM considering no-till methods. You still need nitrogen and the cheapest method is anhydrous ammonia. Then you need to plant. And then at 6 weeks post planting, an emergent herbicide MIGHT be called for to maintain yield. Then harvesting via combine. That is still 3 passes MINIMUM. You could apply a pre-emergent herbicide via air but that too requires fuel and unless you have a duster with a turbine running biodiesel, that requires gasoline. No alcohol in airplanes...
BTW, biodiesel is MUCH more efficient as far as BTU/acre. But it too suffers from market problems as it is also moisture sensitive and has no bulk distribution system. No, you are NOT going to put biodiesel in ANY pipeline. As such, it MUST be trucked from refinery to consumer. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 12:11:12 AM EDT
[#47]
But they run terribly, and they get such worse gas mileage that you end-up spending more than you would if you just bought real gas. When we could regularly buy it a couple of years ago for $0.85/gallon sale in Columbia, SC, it made sense. Otherwise, it's false economy. With our pair of Rangers, we got about 22 MPG with real gas. With E85 we only got 13 MPG. Even though we're now paying $3.25 locally per gallon of gas, gas is still cheaper than E85 unless a station is running one of the $0.85 sales. That isn't even taking into account the much greater wear and tear on the engine and transmission due to the huge loss of power with E85. On I-26 in SC with the long hills, the Rangers shifted gears much more often when trying to maintain the speed limit. The first time I drove one of the Rangers after filling-up with E85, I thought there was a problem with the transmission. Also, having to usually the floor the accelerator when pulling out into traffic is not good for the vehicle long-term. This problem doesn't affect most people, but we leave vehicles parked with the engine running for hours a day. When using E85, the Rangers will overheat. E85 burns at a cooler temperature than gasoline, so this problem doesn't make sense. Maybe Ford is running the engine too lean at idle.z |
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