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Posted: 11/26/2014 2:19:32 PM EDT

Would the ATF, Eric Holder, Anonymous or AL Sharpton get involved?
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:20:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2014 2:20:52 PM EDT by millfire517]
I believe they could deny a sale to anyone they felt like denying. Why would they?
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:22:06 PM EDT
Ferguson
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:26:33 PM EDT
Can deny any sale for any reason
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:26:55 PM EDT
If I had a gun shop in Fegudishu I would have already had my inventory loaded up and temporarily moved to a safe location. So that would be a moot point.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:27:04 PM EDT
Yes.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:28:06 PM EDT
This is America.

A private business should have the right to refuse any sale, to anyone, for any reason.

I don't like the cut of your jib? GTFO.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:29:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:

Would the ATF, Eric Holder, Anonymous or AL Sharpton get involved?
View Quote



somewhere, a liberal anti's head is exploding..
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:29:22 PM EDT
I believe they can deny to sell to you as well, would they probably not, but in the end its up to them its there business.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:29:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:30:46 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Sturmgewehr-JD:
This is America.

A private business should have the right to refuse any sale, to anyone, for any reason.

I don't like the cut of your jib? GTFO.
View Quote

yeah...right.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:31:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By The_Waabit:



somewhere, a liberal anti's head is exploding..
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Originally Posted By The_Waabit:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:

Would the ATF, Eric Holder, Anonymous or AL Sharpton get involved?



somewhere, a liberal anti's head is exploding..

That's kinda what i'm getting at. Libs are anti gun but if you denies sale to someone on how they behave or look i imagine shitstorm.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:31:29 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Sturmgewehr-JD:
This is America.

A private business should have the right to refuse any sale, to anyone, for any reason.

I don't like the cut of your jib? GTFO.
View Quote


Do you make wedding cakes by chance?



Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:31:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:31:50 PM EDT
Yes they can. If something looks fishy they can choose not to proceed.

I get delayed every time. Never denied.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:32:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Absolutely, a FFL can refuse a sale for pretty much any reason. It can just be a "gut" feeling or a suspicion, and that's enough justification to refuse a sale.

No problems there.


But, if a gun store consistently refused to sell guns to only black customers (or refused to sell guns to women customers) - then it would very quickly become a problem, obviously.
View Quote

Who would get involved in that situation?
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:33:18 PM EDT
Can a FFL deny a sale if the purchaser comes in and smells light alcohol / weed but doesnt seem impaired?
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:34:16 PM EDT
If i had a FFL and i didn't like people with long beards could i deny?
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:35:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Chuy123:
Can a FFL deny a sale if the purchaser comes in and smells light alcohol / weed but doesnt seem impaired?
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Weed equals a unlawful user i know that's a automatic denial.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:35:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By CopesDist:
Yes you can... BATFE has told us we can stop a sale at anytime. Ie: Your acting nervous, making threats, straw purchase... etc.......
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Not if I'm a cross-dressing, bi-racial, trans-gendered person(s)!
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:36:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:36:28 PM EDT
I see the guy pull in the parking lot with a democrat sticker on his car..................................
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:37:00 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By highspeedforlife:
Can deny any sale for any reason
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Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:37:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
If i had a FFL and i didn't like people with long beards could i deny?
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Apparently
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:37:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:38:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:

That's kinda what i'm getting at. Libs are anti gun but if you denies sale to someone on how they behave or look i imagine shitstorm.
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Originally Posted By The_Waabit:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:

Would the ATF, Eric Holder, Anonymous or AL Sharpton get involved?



somewhere, a liberal anti's head is exploding..

That's kinda what i'm getting at. Libs are anti gun but if you denies sale to someone on how they behave or look i imagine shitstorm.


The mental gymnastics on a customer being more equal always entertains. Wormholes, broken loops, and magnets. f'ing magnets...
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:38:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bro2Wolf:
Yes they can. If something looks fishy they can choose not to proceed.

I get delayed every time. Never denied.
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See now, I can't think of a single time it's taken me more than ten minutes, except once at a busy gun show.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:38:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:

Weed equals a unlawful user i know that's a automatic denial.
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Originally Posted By Chuy123:
Can a FFL deny a sale if the purchaser comes in and smells light alcohol / weed but doesnt seem impaired?

Weed equals a unlawful user i know that's a automatic denial.
In Colorado?
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:38:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2014 2:39:07 PM EDT by DK-Prof]
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:38:45 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
You mean refuse to sell someone a firearm because they are black?
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Ferguson
You mean refuse to sell someone a firearm because they are black?

Really for anything.

Guy looks like a hipster.


Guy vapes in my shop as he walks in.

and so on
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:39:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2014 2:39:59 PM EDT by VA-BlkRifle]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
I see the guy pull in the parking lot with a democrat sticker on his car..................................
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
I see the guy pull in the parking lot with a democrat sticker on his car..................................

OOOH, Hope and Change sticker =GTFO

Originally Posted By Chuy123:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Originally Posted By Chuy123:
Can a FFL deny a sale if the purchaser comes in and smells light alcohol / weed but doesnt seem impaired?

Weed equals a unlawful user i know that's a automatic denial.
In Colorado?



Federal Law, right on the 4473
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:39:22 PM EDT
What do you think you got denied for?
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:39:38 PM EDT
Repeat after me-

"He was acting suspiciously. I suspected it was a straw purchase"

"He appeared to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol"

"Something didn't feel right"


Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:39:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:40:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Can a FFL deny a sale to someone even if they can pass a background check?
View Quote

<-----FFL
A licensed dealer can refuse to complete the sale for any reason at any time.
ATF encourages dealers to be vigilant about the possibility of a straw purchase.
If the customers behavior, mannerisms, or actions make the dealer suspicious about the buyers motives then he is not prohibited from cancelling the transaction.



Would the ATF, Eric Holder, Anonymous or AL Sharpton get involved?
View Quote

WTF does this mean?
If you are questioning whether a licensed dealer can refuse to sell to customers based simply on their race or ethnicity..............no.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:40:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:41:02 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Chuy123:
In Colorado?
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Originally Posted By Chuy123:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Originally Posted By Chuy123:
Can a FFL deny a sale if the purchaser comes in and smells light alcohol / weed but doesnt seem impaired?

Weed equals a unlawful user i know that's a automatic denial.
In Colorado?

That's federal it's on the 4473.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:41:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:41:22 PM EDT
I would think most any FFL is located on private property.

I would think they could tell you to 'hit the door' if you rubbed them wrong in any way. never mind getting to passing a background check.

For the record: I am not an FFL - but do own my own biz ( in sales )... some people have pissed me off so much I tell them I don't want their money no matter what they offer. I can see an FFL encountering some absolute tool boxes on occasion that they have no desire to deal with.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:42:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:42:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Certainly DOJ - and probably also ATF.

It's clearly a violation of the Civil Rights Act, so DOJ would probably be the ones who dealt with the initial complaint - and would decide whether or not to prosecute.

ATF would almost certainly be brought in, and would presumably pull the FFL.

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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Absolutely, a FFL can refuse a sale for pretty much any reason. It can just be a "gut" feeling or a suspicion, and that's enough justification to refuse a sale.

No problems there.


But, if a gun store consistently refused to sell guns to only black customers (or refused to sell guns to women customers) - then it would very quickly become a problem, obviously.

Who would get involved in that situation?


Certainly DOJ - and probably also ATF.

It's clearly a violation of the Civil Rights Act, so DOJ would probably be the ones who dealt with the initial complaint - and would decide whether or not to prosecute.

ATF would almost certainly be brought in, and would presumably pull the FFL.


Has that ever happened?
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:42:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
If i had a FFL and i didn't like people with long beards could i deny?
View Quote


As long as the person being denied isn't part of a protected class, you'd be cool and you still could be cool if you denied somebody in a protected class, for the right reason, like they're drunk, they were rude to you, they came in with a shady person, who handed off money, etc.

Putting a sign on your window stating that you don't sell to Asians, or people over 60, probably not so much so.

Chris
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:42:41 PM EDT
Technically yes.

But I'm sure if an FFL said to a customer "I'm not selling this gun to you because you're black"
The customer could sue and win.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:43:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By akethan:
What do you think you got denied for?
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Asking not telling.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:46:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By CopesDist:
Yes you can... BATFE has told us we can stop a sale at anytime. Ie: Your acting nervous, making threats, straw purchase... etc.......
View Quote


That thinking by BATFE predates both Heller and McDonald, which held that the ability to keep and bear arms is an individual right guaranteed by the Constitution.

I think today a licensee had better be able to both articulate and document very solid grounds, with supporting witnesses, before denying someone the ability to exercise a Constitutionally guaranteed right. Anything less and the person could come after the licensee for a civil claim of discrimination and abrogation of their protected rights.

An example would be the obvious straw purchaser, one where the renumeration for the transferee passed in the presence of an employee.

One where there is serious issue is the BATFE letter stating that a person with a medical marijuana card is automatically addicted to or a habitual user of marijuana and therefore a prohibited person. The possesion of such a card is not indica of habitual use or addiction, or even one time use. All it can be is evidence the possessor of the card completed whatever bureaucratic process was required for issuance. I'd hate to be the licensee who became the test case for that policy, because I believe you'd loose.

Another would be denying any non-Caucasian a purchase of unsubstantiated grounds. Deny a person of color for any reason other than a response other than "approved" or "proceed" and you are wide open to suit.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:47:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Certainly DOJ - and probably also ATF.

It's clearly a violation of the Civil Rights Act, so DOJ would probably be the ones who dealt with the initial complaint - and would decide whether or not to prosecute.

ATF would almost certainly be brought in, and would presumably pull the FFL.

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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Absolutely, a FFL can refuse a sale for pretty much any reason. It can just be a "gut" feeling or a suspicion, and that's enough justification to refuse a sale.

No problems there.


But, if a gun store consistently refused to sell guns to only black customers (or refused to sell guns to women customers) - then it would very quickly become a problem, obviously.

Who would get involved in that situation?


Certainly DOJ - and probably also ATF.

It's clearly a violation of the Civil Rights Act, so DOJ would probably be the ones who dealt with the initial complaint - and would decide whether or not to prosecute.

ATF would almost certainly be brought in, and would presumably pull the FFL.



ATF cannot "pull" an FFL unless the dealer has been proven willful in violating the GCA / NFA.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:47:17 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


If there's not a consistent pattern against a protected group (like based on race, gender, etc.) - but you are just refusing to sell to people you don't like for random reasons, then I think it would be legally okay, just a really bad business model.
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Ferguson
You mean refuse to sell someone a firearm because they are black?

Really for anything.

Guy looks like a hipster.


Guy vapes in my shop as he walks in.

and so on


If there's not a consistent pattern against a protected group (like based on race, gender, etc.) - but you are just refusing to sell to people you don't like for random reasons, then I think it would be legally okay, just a really bad business model.

Business will be good at KTMRIDER's future gun shop.

Plan on keeping my costs down by living in my 5thwheel toyhauler out back and being 100 solar powered.
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:49:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:49:57 PM EDT
I've denied a sale because the guy stunk and looked like he was high
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:50:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
One of the maps that showed stuff like where building was burned had "police response" on it, one was about cops at a suburban Gander Mountain that was filled with people trying to buy guns the afternoon before the verdict
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Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
Originally Posted By millfire517:
If I had a gun shop in Fegudishu I would have already had my inventory loaded up and temporarily moved to a safe location. So that would be a moot point.


if you had a shop in ferguson you were sold out 2 weeks ago
One of the maps that showed stuff like where building was burned had "police response" on it, one was about cops at a suburban Gander Mountain that was filled with people trying to buy guns the afternoon before the verdict



I think aimless meant to say "if you had a shop with REASONABLE PRICES, you were sold out two weeks ago
Link Posted: 11/26/2014 2:52:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:

That's kinda what i'm getting at. Libs are anti gun but if you denies sale to someone on how they behave or look i imagine shitstorm.
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Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:
Originally Posted By The_Waabit:
Originally Posted By KTMRIDER:

Would the ATF, Eric Holder, Anonymous or AL Sharpton get involved?



somewhere, a liberal anti's head is exploding..

That's kinda what i'm getting at. Libs are anti gun but if you denies sale to someone on how they behave or look i imagine shitstorm.

Only if they are denied for being a minority ghetto dweller.
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