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Posted: 10/29/2013 6:17:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 6:18:40 AM EST by Luchs]
Crony Crapitalism in Action.

Big business declares war on tea party
Pledge to support GOP establishment


The recent fiscal crisis has opened a major rift between the tea party wing of the Republican Party and business groups that traditionally have backed Republicans, with many business leaders now vowing to get involved more in GOP primaries to try to counter insurgent candidates.

Tea party leaders are defiant, saying they will not change course despite criticism from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Business Roundtable and other top business groups.

But business leaders argue that the scorched-earth tactics used by tea party Republicans during the 16-day shutdown and debate over raising the federal government's borrowing limit marked the fourth time since the GOP took control of the House in 2011 that tea party adherents precipitated a governmental crisis that zapped consumer and business confidence, raised uncertainty and exerted a major drag on economic growth.

Besides encouraging more business-friendly candidates in primary contests, business groups are rallying behind establishment Republicans such as Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, the Kentucky Republican who is being targeted by tea party activists for brokering a deal to temporarily raise the debt ceiling and reopen the government, while launching a negotiation with Democrats over budget cuts and proposed tax and entitlement reforms.

Business executives agree with many tea party goals such as cutting the deficit and reforming entitlement spending, but they argue that conservative lawmakers have erred in their tactics and wounded the economy by driving the government with increasing frequency into states of crisis and dysfunction — this time for the ultimately unsuccessful cause of trying to force President Obama to cancel his health care law.

"There's no question that this month's government shutdown saga has been a spectacular failure," said David French, senior vice president and lobbyist at the National Retail Federation, whose members constitute the nation's largest group of employers.

Retailers were particularly frustrated that the long-running feud and standoff between the parties — which has been postponed until early next year — threatens for the second year in a row to spoil the critical Christmas shopping season, when one-quarter of all U.S. retail purchases are made and an even larger share of retail profits are made.

Besides the retail federation, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the largest U.S. business lobby, "will be getting more involved in primaries this cycle," said Blair Latoff Holmes, the organization's executive director for media relations.

He said the Chamber of Commerce has kept tabs on legislators' votes on the debt ceiling and government shutdown as well as their positions on issues such as trade, immigration, and entitlement and tax reform, with an eye toward deciding which candidates to support.

Tea party independence?

Tea party leaders are defiant, threatening to run candidates as independents if business groups defeat them in next year's Republican primaries. Already, conservative primary challengers have emerged to take on Republican Senate and House incumbents in states such as Kentucky, Tennessee, Idaho, Texas and South Carolina.

Judson Phillips, the founder of Tea Party Nation, called business leaders who oppose the tea party "RINOs" (Republicans in name only) and "crony capitalists" who are "feeding at the government trough" and are interested only in "making the trains run on time" rather than changing the unsustainable course of government spending.

"Business is overreaching," he said of their plans to oppose insurgent candidates in Republican primaries.

"Business can bring a lot of money to the table, but they can't bring boots on the ground" in a way that rouses public support for Republican candidates the way the tea party does, he said.
But from Wall Street to Main Street, all of the major business associations, including the Chamber of Commerce, the retailers, the Business Roundtable and the National Association of Manufacturers lobbied for quick passage of an increase in the nation's debt limit and end to the shutdown to prevent another major economic slowdown at a time when many businesses hoped the economy would be picking up speed.

That pitted the business groups against activist conservative groups such as the Club for Growth and Heritage Action, which urged Republicans to stand firm with the tea party.
Caught in the middle was Koch Industries, the financier of many tea party-affiliated groups. Koch issued a letter distancing itself from the shutdown strategy.

Taking on the ideological conservatives could be a bruising task for the business groups, but it's something they say they now realize they have to do.

"Politics has always been a full-contact sport. The most active groups often command the most attention, and that's why the tea party has risen in its influence within the GOP," Mr. French said. "The shutdown has made it clear that the business community cannot afford to stay on the sidelines any longer. If you don't like what's going on in Washington, get in the game and make a difference."
The battle has been joined in a few races. Besides Mr. McConnell, the tea party is targeting Sen. Lamar Alexander, a pragmatic Republican from Tennessee, and eight-term Rep. Michael K. Simpson, Idaho Republican. Business proponents, in turn, are pledging to unseat Sen. Mike Lee, Utah Republican, who defeated Robert Bennett in 2008, in one of the first successful conservative primary campaigns against a GOP incumbent.

Business groups are increasingly joining forces with Defending Main Street, a group backing center- right Republicans. Should they succeed in defeating some tea party candidates, Mr. Phillips said, the tea party will run their candidates in third party campaigns where possible — a strategy analysts say likely would divide the Republican vote and make it easier for Democrats to win.

Exploiting the GOP divide

With the Republican rift breaking into the open, Democrats are trying to take advantage. Already, many big businesses have shifted into their column, Mr. Phillips said. More businesses may defect to the Democratic side if the GOP continues to veer to the right or splinter into warring factions next year.

Eager to try to exploit the split, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, California Democrat, has spent the days since the shutdown pointing out that nearly every House Republican voted against business demands for an increase in the debt limit and end to the shutdown, while every Democrat supported it.

"This is the Republican Party," Mrs. Pelosi said last week. "You know, I used to say, 'Oh, the tea party has hijacked the main Republicans.' No. They now dominate. It used to be the tail is wagging the dog. Well, if that's still the case, this dog's got a mighty big tail."

The reaction from business associations to the debt crisis and shutdown ranged from subtle discontent to undisguised outrage.

Jay Timmons, chief executive of the National Association of Manufacturers, announced after the deal that he was "downgrading" Washington for once again barely avoiding an "economic catastrophe" — in a tongue-in-cheek reference to a threat Oct. 15 from one of Wall Street's top credit rating agencies to lower the nation's AAA rating.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, whose small-business members have been important backers for the GOP for decades, was relatively restrained and did not directly criticize Republicans' handling of the debt crisis even while laying out plans for primary battles.

But in a sign of how far the disgruntlement with the tea party goes, the National Federation of Independent Business, which represents mom-and-pop operations that are part of a grass-roots Republican constituency and a key engine of job growth in the economy, uncharacteristically departed from Republican orthodoxy in deploring the mess in Washington.

"Job creators are rolling their eyes and shaking their heads thinking, 'This is certainly not the way to run the largest enterprise in the world,'" NFIB chief economist Bill Dunkelberg said.
The dilemma for businesspeople is, they agree with many of the tea party's small-government goals but are put off by their tactics, said Jerry Jasinowski, former president of the manufacturing association.

"Like most everyone else in Washington, I was put off by the antics of the tea party conservatives and believed — and still believe — that shutting down the government was extremely poor judgment," he said.

Although the tea party's tactics may be "crude and ineffective," he said, "whatever else we may think about them, their concern about our fiscal affairs is legitimate and demands attention."
He faulted tea party leaders for getting sidetracked by the Affordable Care Act.

"There is nothing they can do about that law, at least not right now, and all of their ranting served mainly to obfuscate the disastrous launch" of the program Oct. 1, he said. "They should have just stood back and allowed the news media to tell that story. If the administration cannot clean up its health care law, Obamacare will sink under its own weight."

But Mr. Jasinowski was not confident that tea party legislators have learned any lessons from the debacle.

"They are bloodied but unbowed," he said. "We will soon be embroiled in this seemingly endless contretemps again."
View Quote


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/28/business-groups-to-take-stand-against-tea-party-ca/print/
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 6:55:24 AM EST
A house divided cannot stand.

The republicans have no one to blame but themselves for the dems winning the white house, again.

They need to regroup and make the changes within the party, instead of starting a new party and splitting the conservative vote.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:02:02 AM EST
An article from the Washington Times bashing the Republicans. Hmmm, yeah, I believe it.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:03:31 AM EST
The Republicans lost big time with the public and businesses with their shutdown plan. While trying to cut spending is a great idea they went around it the wrong way. Lots of businesses lost out by having to shutdown for weeks. What was the final outcome of it? Nothing. They put everyone through that and accomplished nothing except to piss the public off. I can see why businesses would not support people who are pushing to use that same tactic in February.

The Tea Party was never a formal organization. They have no set of core views and everyone that wants to promote their own personal causes is use the Tea Party name. The Tea Party either needs to a formal group or the term needs to stop being used. There is so much negativity associated with the term due to various idiots promoting their own agenda. The term Tea Party then gets tagged on to anything the Dems want to make negative. It's a liability at this point.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:04:56 AM EST
I've said it before: Big business is only slightly less dangerous than big government. Rights stand in the way of profit? Time to lobby.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:05:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 7:06:27 AM EST by poorman]
That is what the Dems and the media can't grasp, the Tea Party is not a thing, it is a grass roots movement. It is in effect the people.

Originally Posted By GrasshopperNOmore:
I've said it before: Big business is only slightly less dangerous than big government. Rights stand in the way of profit? Time to lobby.
View Quote


We the People don't have the money or power needed to lobby against big business
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:06:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
The Republicans lost big time with the public and businesses with their shutdown plan. While trying to cut spending is a great idea they went around it the wrong way. Lots of businesses lost out by having to shutdown for weeks. What was the final outcome of it? Nothing. They put everyone through that and accomplished nothing except to piss the public off. I can see why businesses would not support people who are pushing to use that same tactic in February.

The Tea Party was never a formal organization. They have no set of core views and everyone that wants to promote their own personal causes is use the Tea Party name. The Tea Party either needs to a formal group or the term needs to stop being used. There is so much negativity associated with the term due to various idiots promoting their own agenda. The term Tea Party then gets tagged on to anything the Dems want to make negative. It's a liability at this point.
View Quote


They use the same tactics on the GOP. There's really no way out of this.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:07:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GrasshopperNOmore:
I've said it before: Big business is only slightly less dangerous than big government. Rights stand in the way of profit? Time to lobby.
View Quote


and when they team up watch your ahole!
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:07:54 AM EST
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:09:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 7:10:59 AM EST by Lomshek]
Is the Tea Party going to be another punching bag like the libertarians (L & l)?

A tiny insignificant fraction of voters who are not worth listening to or changing policy for but can have a major effect on elections and need to get in line and support the party.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:10:15 AM EST

Bullshit!!!!
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:11:29 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?


The shutdown was seen as a threat to their bottom line. A corporation has one job.



The capitalists will sell us the rope with which to hang them

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:11:40 AM EST
The Tea Party is a movement - but ask 10 members what it is a movement for and you will get 10 answers. It has no defined platform. It is simply a knee jerk reaction to frustration - it is anything is better than what we have.

Sorry, I can not blame businesses for wanting to know what they are supporting. The Tea party does not represent them, because without the strings of definitions and platforms, it does not truly support anything specifically. The people I know who support the "Tea Party" support something utterly different than what the people on this board feel the "Tea Party" supports. They support a religious right Tea Party - go figure.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:21:30 AM EST
So now the liberals have to choose. Big business, or tea party?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:24:56 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By epd230:
A house divided cannot stand.

The republicans have no one to blame but themselves for the dems winning the white house, again.

They need to regroup and make the changes within the party, instead of starting a new party and splitting the conservative vote.
View Quote

The establishment republicans need to step aside and make way for the tea party.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:25:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mousehunter:
The Tea Party is a movement - but ask 10 members what it is a movement for and you will get 10 answers. It has no defined platform. It is simply a knee jerk reaction to frustration - it is anything is better than what we have.

Sorry, I can not blame businesses for wanting to know what they are supporting. The Tea party does not represent them, because without the strings of definitions and platforms, it does not truly support anything specifically. The people I know who support the "Tea Party" support something utterly different than what the people on this board feel the "Tea Party" supports. They support a religious right Tea Party - go figure.
View Quote
Big business supports big government because they need someone to influence, someone to lobby. They like the status quo, because they can write the laws which prevent competition and preserves their "big" status.

The tea party is threatening that.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:29:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 7:30:42 AM EST by Luchs]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:
Big business supports big government because they need someone to influence, someone to lobby. They like the status quo, because they can write the laws which prevent competition and preserves their "big" status.

The tea party is threatening that.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:
Originally Posted By mousehunter:
The Tea Party is a movement - but ask 10 members what it is a movement for and you will get 10 answers. It has no defined platform. It is simply a knee jerk reaction to frustration - it is anything is better than what we have.

Sorry, I can not blame businesses for wanting to know what they are supporting. The Tea party does not represent them, because without the strings of definitions and platforms, it does not truly support anything specifically. The people I know who support the "Tea Party" support something utterly different than what the people on this board feel the "Tea Party" supports. They support a religious right Tea Party - go figure.
Big business supports big government because they need someone to influence, someone to lobby. They like the status quo, because they can write the laws which prevent competition and preserves their "big" status.

The tea party is threatening that.


Yes. GiantCorpCoInternational HATES when Joe Small Business has an idea that could threaten their marketshare.

So they use government as a bludgeon to crush upstart rivals under a mountain of regulation and paperwork.

This is why it's so hard for small medical device companies with often better ideas to get anything to market in the US. Because the giant dinosaurs have the lobbying money, and have made it VERY hard for anyone small to get past the FDA, requiring millions of dollars to do so.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:32:08 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?
View Quote


I read a few articles where plenty of businesses weren't hiring due to the uncertainty caused by the shutdown.

Businesses hate uncertainty. Bond markets hate uncertainty.

Threatening shutdown and default, playing chicken, creates uncertainty.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:38:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By badfish274:


I read a few articles where plenty of businesses weren't hiring due to the uncertainty caused by the shutdown.

Businesses hate uncertainty. Bond markets hate uncertainty.

Threatening shutdown and default, playing chicken, creates uncertainty.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?


I read a few articles where plenty of businesses weren't hiring due to the uncertainty caused by the shutdown.

Businesses hate uncertainty. Bond markets hate uncertainty.

Threatening shutdown and default, playing chicken, creates uncertainty.


Then they need to quit being so short sighted and realize a major amount of uncertainty is on the horizon tea party or no tea party. This game of kicking the can down the road can't go on forever as the math will catch up and everything will come crashing down creating uncertainty for a generation or more. These fools have no idea that they are working to slit their own throats in the long run by not trying to stabilize an increasingly unstable situation.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:40:16 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?
View Quote

Short term vs long term. Not to mention the real tax rate on the very, very top is not as high as some folks here would lead you to believe, not because it's low on paper but because it is hard to tax folks who have the capability and motivation to hide assets from taxation (which sort of underscores the folly of "tax the wealthy" but I digress. Cheap credit, the .gov handing out money, and massive spending subsidising your enterprise either directly through traditional subsidies or indirectly through programs like welfare which allow you to keep wages low means that some folks are in a position to get very wealthy. That it may or may not be sustainable for more than 10 or 20 years doesnt really matter to them. People in general tend to be short term oriented.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:41:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 7:42:09 AM EST by uxo2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By epd230:
A house divided cannot stand.

The republicans have no one to blame but themselves for the dems winning the white house, again.

They need to regroup and make the changes within the party, instead of starting a new party and splitting the conservative vote.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By epd230:
A house divided cannot stand.

The republicans have no one to blame but themselves for the dems winning the white house, again.

They need to regroup and make the changes within the party, instead of starting a new party and splitting the conservative vote.



It been devided for quite some time...

But united with the democrates

Let them burn....


Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:
So now the liberals have to choose. Big business, or tea party?

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:49:55 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thatguywiththeak:

Short term vs long term. Not to mention the real tax rate on the very, very top is not as high as some folks here would lead you to believe, not because it's low on paper but because it is hard to tax folks who have the capability and motivation to hide assets from taxation (which sort of underscores the folly of "tax the wealthy" but I digress. Cheap credit, the .gov handing out money, and massive spending subsidising your enterprise either directly through traditional subsidies or indirectly through programs like welfare which allow you to keep wages low means that some folks are in a position to get very wealthy. That it may or may not be sustainable for more than 10 or 20 years doesnt really matter to them. People in general tend to be short term oriented.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thatguywiththeak:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?

Short term vs long term. Not to mention the real tax rate on the very, very top is not as high as some folks here would lead you to believe, not because it's low on paper but because it is hard to tax folks who have the capability and motivation to hide assets from taxation (which sort of underscores the folly of "tax the wealthy" but I digress. Cheap credit, the .gov handing out money, and massive spending subsidising your enterprise either directly through traditional subsidies or indirectly through programs like welfare which allow you to keep wages low means that some folks are in a position to get very wealthy. That it may or may not be sustainable for more than 10 or 20 years doesnt really matter to them. People in general tend to be short term oriented.


The top 1% pay the highest tax rate. The top 5% pay 59.1% of all the US Income Tax collections. How much more do you want?

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:56:43 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?
View Quote

Try reading/listening to some of the non-right wing media. The shutdown hurt the Republican's credibility in a big way. Do you consider standing for something and failing miserably a success? The shutdown failed to accomplish the goal of cutting spending and hurt the party that pushed it. It was the wrong tactic and was handled the wrong way. Continuing to back that same tactic is foolish. Businesses are saying they are going to back a different approach. Makes sense to me, when a strategy fails you change it.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:56:52 AM EST
I got rid of my US Chamber membership over immigration reform and support for Cronyism.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:57:21 AM EST
Big-business donations is how the GOP has been getting by under Boner.... They apparently plan on surviving on cash alone since they will not be surviving with voters.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:57:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By badfish274:


I read a few articles where plenty of businesses weren't hiring due to the uncertainty caused by the shutdown.

Businesses hate uncertainty. Bond markets hate uncertainty.

Threatening shutdown and default, playing chicken, creates uncertainty.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?


I read a few articles where plenty of businesses weren't hiring due to the uncertainty caused by the shutdown.

Businesses hate uncertainty. Bond markets hate uncertainty.

Threatening shutdown and default, playing chicken, creates uncertainty.


A dwindling working class, a devaluation of the dollar, an imposition of the surveillance state, ever increasing welfare class numbers and a burgeoning in size, detached, insulated, inefficient and over-regulating government/ political class all makes for uncertainty. Ohh, that's right- uncertainty only counts in the things that worry those in control. And they certainly aren't going to give that up willingly. Fuck the crony establishment GOP, the corporate capitalists and their socialist partners. The alter of short term gains will reduce this country into something that will not be recognizable from it's former self...
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:59:40 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Colt636:


Then they need to quit being so short sighted and realize a major amount of uncertainty is on the horizon tea party or no tea party. This game of kicking the can down the road can't go on forever as the math will catch up and everything will come crashing down creating uncertainty for a generation or more. These fools have no idea that they are working to slit their own throats in the long run by not trying to stabilize an increasingly unstable situation.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Colt636:
Originally Posted By badfish274:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?


I read a few articles where plenty of businesses weren't hiring due to the uncertainty caused by the shutdown.

Businesses hate uncertainty. Bond markets hate uncertainty.

Threatening shutdown and default, playing chicken, creates uncertainty.


Then they need to quit being so short sighted and realize a major amount of uncertainty is on the horizon tea party or no tea party. This game of kicking the can down the road can't go on forever as the math will catch up and everything will come crashing down creating uncertainty for a generation or more. These fools have no idea that they are working to slit their own throats in the long run by not trying to stabilize an increasingly unstable situation.



They're stacking their resources. As long as you aren't on the bottom or in the middle, the likelihood is you will fair ok. I think that's the theory...
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:00:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:02:53 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:
Big business supports big government because they need someone to influence, someone to lobby. They like the status quo, because they can write the laws which prevent competition and preserves their "big" status.

The tea party is threatening that.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:
Originally Posted By mousehunter:
The Tea Party is a movement - but ask 10 members what it is a movement for and you will get 10 answers. It has no defined platform. It is simply a knee jerk reaction to frustration - it is anything is better than what we have.

Sorry, I can not blame businesses for wanting to know what they are supporting. The Tea party does not represent them, because without the strings of definitions and platforms, it does not truly support anything specifically. The people I know who support the "Tea Party" support something utterly different than what the people on this board feel the "Tea Party" supports. They support a religious right Tea Party - go figure.
Big business supports big government because they need someone to influence, someone to lobby. They like the status quo, because they can write the laws which prevent competition and preserves their "big" status.

The tea party is threatening that.


Not just kill competition but also get the artificial demand from the tax-payer funded FSA consumption. How much profit does wal-mart make off food stamps, WIC, EIC and the like?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:04:31 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UM-Iceman:


The top 1% pay the highest tax rate. The top 5% pay 59.1% of all the US Income Tax collections. How much more do you want?

http://taxfoundation.org:81/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/FF343_table1_699x214.png
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Originally Posted By UM-Iceman:
Originally Posted By thatguywiththeak:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?

Short term vs long term. Not to mention the real tax rate on the very, very top is not as high as some folks here would lead you to believe, not because it's low on paper but because it is hard to tax folks who have the capability and motivation to hide assets from taxation (which sort of underscores the folly of "tax the wealthy" but I digress. Cheap credit, the .gov handing out money, and massive spending subsidising your enterprise either directly through traditional subsidies or indirectly through programs like welfare which allow you to keep wages low means that some folks are in a position to get very wealthy. That it may or may not be sustainable for more than 10 or 20 years doesnt really matter to them. People in general tend to be short term oriented.


The top 1% pay the highest tax rate. The top 5% pay 59.1% of all the US Income Tax collections. How much more do you want?

http://taxfoundation.org:81/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/FF343_table1_699x214.png


For the top 5% particularly business owners there is a ton of hidden taxes not on that chart. For example, the employer portion of FICA I pay, increased regulatory compliance cost (OSHA just came out with new regs that will cost me around $10,000 to give a chemical safety fucking slide show to 200 employees for chemicals that you can literally drink)
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:06:38 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Try reading/listening to some of the non-right wing media. The shutdown hurt the Republican's credibility in a big way. Do you consider standing for something and failing miserably a success? The shutdown failed to accomplish the goal of cutting spending and hurt the party that pushed it. It was the wrong tactic and was handled the wrong way. Continuing to back that same tactic is foolish. Businesses are saying they are going to back a different approach. Makes sense to me, when a strategy fails you change it.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?

Try reading/listening to some of the non-right wing media. The shutdown hurt the Republican's credibility in a big way. Do you consider standing for something and failing miserably a success? The shutdown failed to accomplish the goal of cutting spending and hurt the party that pushed it. It was the wrong tactic and was handled the wrong way. Continuing to back that same tactic is foolish. Businesses are saying they are going to back a different approach. Makes sense to me, when a strategy fails you change it.


It hasn't played all the way out yet. And the conservatives didn't want to shut down government, just impede the takeover of 1/6 of the economy and slow down the restricting of rights/ imposing burdens/ coerced participation by an overly intrusive government that can't even build a useful front page for their website in over two years of development. Then they claim ignorance and deflect responsibility while still having to do what the conservatives were trying to get them to do (for different reasons).
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:07:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:08:08 AM EST
The only problem the liberals have with big business is the profits still go back to private citizens (executives and stock holders) instead of the government (which would be defacto socialism).
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:08:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Interesting that a movement based on frustration with no defined platform can be such a hindrance to both major parties.
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I would hardly call it a hindrance to the democrats.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:22:04 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Luchs:


Yes. GiantCorpCoInternational HATES when Joe Small Business has an idea that could threaten their marketshare.

So they use government as a bludgeon to crush upstart rivals under a mountain of regulation and paperwork.

This is why it's so hard for small medical device companies with often better ideas to get anything to market in the US. Because the giant dinosaurs have the lobbying money, and have made it VERY hard for anyone small to get past the FDA, requiring millions of dollars to do so.
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Originally Posted By Luchs:
Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:
Originally Posted By mousehunter:
The Tea Party is a movement - but ask 10 members what it is a movement for and you will get 10 answers. It has no defined platform. It is simply a knee jerk reaction to frustration - it is anything is better than what we have.

Sorry, I can not blame businesses for wanting to know what they are supporting. The Tea party does not represent them, because without the strings of definitions and platforms, it does not truly support anything specifically. The people I know who support the "Tea Party" support something utterly different than what the people on this board feel the "Tea Party" supports. They support a religious right Tea Party - go figure.
Big business supports big government because they need someone to influence, someone to lobby. They like the status quo, because they can write the laws which prevent competition and preserves their "big" status.

The tea party is threatening that.


Yes. GiantCorpCoInternational HATES when Joe Small Business has an idea that could threaten their marketshare.

So they use government as a bludgeon to crush upstart rivals under a mountain of regulation and paperwork.

This is why it's so hard for small medical device companies with often better ideas to get anything to market in the US. Because the giant dinosaurs have the lobbying money, and have made it VERY hard for anyone small to get past the FDA, requiring millions of dollars to do so.


Yup.

Immigration is tied to that to. Businesses know that more workers allows them to drive wages down even further.

Quotes!
“Too much capitalism does not mean too many capitalists, but too few capitalists.”

and

"Big Business and State Socialism are very much alike."
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:28:42 AM EST
I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how serious damage was done to our economy by shutting down 13% of the Federal Govt for 16 days.

Is our economy so weak that we can't shut down the National Parks for two weeks?

The "govt shutdown = damage the economy" meme should raise some really tough questions. It doesn't because it is nothing more than another piece of propaganda used to condition people.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:30:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SWIRE:
It was the wrong tactic and was handled the wrong way.
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The only other option (besides caving) is to increase spending at a smaller amount.

What is your "solution" to spending more than we take in?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:32:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:37:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 8:46:33 AM EST by thatguywiththeak]
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Originally Posted By UM-Iceman:


The top 1% pay the highest tax rate. The top 5% pay 59.1% of all the US Income Tax collections. How much more do you want?

http://taxfoundation.org:81/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/FF343_table1_699x214.png
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Originally Posted By UM-Iceman:
Originally Posted By thatguywiththeak:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?

Short term vs long term. Not to mention the real tax rate on the very, very top is not as high as some folks here would lead you to believe, not because it's low on paper but because it is hard to tax folks who have the capability and motivation to hide assets from taxation (which sort of underscores the folly of "tax the wealthy" but I digress. Cheap credit, the .gov handing out money, and massive spending subsidising your enterprise either directly through traditional subsidies or indirectly through programs like welfare which allow you to keep wages low means that some folks are in a position to get very wealthy. That it may or may not be sustainable for more than 10 or 20 years doesnt really matter to them. People in general tend to be short term oriented.


The top 1% pay the highest tax rate. The top 5% pay 59.1% of all the US Income Tax collections. How much more do you want?

http://taxfoundation.org:81/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/FF343_table1_699x214.png

I want no more, if that wasnt clear from comment about the folly of "tax the wealthy" crowd. But the on paper tax rate and the real tax rate generally are nowhere near each other when it comes to the top of the top earners, specifically those in leadership positions at large business institutions. There is a strong incentive to avoid taxation at that level and there is also the capability to avoid it through the obfuscation of income sources and numbers, creative accounting, etc. That's part of problem with trying to raise taxes on the super wealthy and a progressive tax system in general. My point with that was in reference to his tax increases statement and was that you can only raise taxes so much (especially on people at that level) before they will just (effectively) cheat on their taxes, and that we have most likely reached that point already. So the actual revenue you derive from them, and thus the impact it has on them, is likely to change very little and thus that probably isnt going to play into their calculus when it comes to supporting the growth of government in some contexts.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:39:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By watchwatch:
I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how serious damage was done to our economy by shutting down 13% of the Federal Govt for 16 days.

Is our economy so weak that we can't shut down the National Parks for two weeks?

The "govt shutdown = damage the economy" meme should raise some really tough questions. It doesn't because it is nothing more than another piece of propaganda used to condition people.
View Quote



Because it costs money to hire firms to enforce the closure of the national parks. So in effect, we paid twice as much to be denied access to our National parks. Twice the bill, zero access. See how that works. Barrycades cost money too.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:39:57 AM EST
Yeah, I'm pretty surprised that the Tea Party Conservative/Constitutional movement, a right-leaning wing of the Republican party I would've thought, is getting such hate from so-called Repubs and so-called "conservative" groups. I sat in on a telephone conference with my Repub Congressman yesterday evening as he was taking rounds of questions from constituents. One question was from an older gentleman (assumption on my part based solely on his manner of speech) and it was whether the Congressman considered himself a Tea Party member. The Congressman could not have said "no" faster if he were answering a question on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire. The questioner then added that he was glad because he thought TPers were harming the Republican party.

Wasn't it the TP that helped pave the way for many Rs to be elected/re-elected during a recent election cycle (the second half of BHO's first term)? How quickly the powers-that-be seem to have forgotten the grassroots movement that swept many of them into power.

I've come to the realization that both major parties are taking us to the same place. They're just taking us there via different speeds. The Ds have us on a jet airliner while the Rs have us in a car. And while I can't help but think the two party system is no longer workable in this country, especially since it seems more like a one party system nowadays, I also don't think adding a party would do anything but divide the vote for whatever party the new group sprang from.



Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:34:30 AM EST
People who think Tea Partiers are hurting republicans are not republicans.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:45:36 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
People who think Tea Partiers are hurting republicans are not republicans.
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This
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:47:41 AM EST
The republicans, nor the Tea Party caused the shutdown. It looks like even arfcommers have bought the MSM narrative on that one. Sad.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:50:13 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SIRIUS1:

Bullshit!!!!
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Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:50:18 AM EST
The GOP just isn't going to be satisfied until it comes in third in a presidential election, is it?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:51:22 AM EST
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Originally Posted By piccolo:



This
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Originally Posted By piccolo:
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
People who think Tea Partiers are hurting republicans are not republicans.



This


The Tea Part and the likes of Lee and Cruz motivated me to vote in all elections I'm able to. My wife feels the same. Since all politics are local I hope more do the same.

So +1
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:52:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 9:55:46 AM EST by Luchs]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
The GOP just isn't going to be satisfied until it comes in third in a presidential election, is it?
View Quote


Fourth.

After Communist and Green.

They sure won't get conservative votes. Why bother?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:53:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Kihn:


It hasn't played all the way out yet. And the conservatives didn't want to shut down government, just impede the takeover of 1/6 of the economy and slow down the restricting of rights/ imposing burdens/ coerced participation by an overly intrusive government that can't even build a useful front page for their website in over two years of development. Then they claim ignorance and deflect responsibility while still having to do what the conservatives were trying to get them to do (for different reasons).
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Originally Posted By Kihn:
Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Who, other than the media, is saying that the government shutdown was a bad thing?

The SHUTDOWN was a drag on economic growth? But the massive increase in debt, quantitative easing, and inevitable tax increases aren't?

Try reading/listening to some of the non-right wing media. The shutdown hurt the Republican's credibility in a big way. Do you consider standing for something and failing miserably a success? The shutdown failed to accomplish the goal of cutting spending and hurt the party that pushed it. It was the wrong tactic and was handled the wrong way. Continuing to back that same tactic is foolish. Businesses are saying they are going to back a different approach. Makes sense to me, when a strategy fails you change it.


It hasn't played all the way out yet. And the conservatives didn't want to shut down government, just impede the takeover of 1/6 of the economy and slow down the restricting of rights/ imposing burdens/ coerced participation by an overly intrusive government that can't even build a useful front page for their website in over two years of development. Then they claim ignorance and deflect responsibility while still having to do what the conservatives were trying to get them to do (for different reasons).

The conservatives didn't get their message out. I still have no idea on exactly what they were fighting for as they never explained it. They also let the Demcorats control the argument. Since no one knew what it was about and the Dems were the only one going on the news show to explain things the conservatives got all the blame. The conservatives failed and things will only get worse for them as things are played out.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:53:50 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
People who think Tea Partiers are hurting republicans are not republicans.
View Quote


^^Couldn't agree more^^
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 9:54:22 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mousehunter:
The Tea Party is a movement - but ask 10 members what it is a movement for and you will get 10 answers. It has no defined platform. It is simply a knee jerk reaction to frustration - it is anything is better than what we have.

Sorry, I can not blame businesses for wanting to know what they are supporting. The Tea party does not represent them, because without the strings of definitions and platforms, it does not truly support anything specifically. The people I know who support the "Tea Party" support something utterly different than what the people on this board feel the "Tea Party" supports. They support a religious right Tea Party - go figure.
View Quote



I identified with Tea Party principles at the start... even went to the big shindig in front of the Alamo when Beck and Nugent showed up. And quickly saw alot of anti-immigration, anti-free trade, pro-life vs abortion, etc stuff get tacked onto the "movement" as soon as Fox News saw it gain some steam.


So no. I am not a member of the "Tea Party" by any stretch. I'm a member of the "Our country is fucked up because it's got too much damn government" party. And I don't care if anyone else joins it.
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