What would people recommend for fighting against knives/canes/guns/etc?  Im interested in learning disarming techniques or counters for these.  
Thank You,
-RC

Krav Maga

KM....thats funny...look in to the Filipino martial arts. Arnis, Escrima, Kali. Avoid the Japanese stuff. It's rarely taught "out of motion."

Edit: The best way to understand counters is to truly understand attacks. That's why I suggested what I did. KM is not a knife fighting art... The Filipino arts are based on knife/stick. That's why they are the best at defending against knife/stick. If you understand knife defense, a handgun, at close range, is easier to deal with...remember that, in close ranges, knives are far more dangerous than guns.

Here

Quoted: KM....thats funny...look in to the Filipino martial arts. Arnis, Escrima, Kali. Avoid the Japanese stuff. It's rarely taught "out of motion." Edit: The best way to understand counters is to truly understand attacks. That's why I suggested what I did. KM is not a knife fighting art... The Filipino arts are based on knife/stick. That's why they are the best at defending against knife/stick. If you understand knife defense, a handgun, at close range, is easier to deal with...remember that, in close ranges, knives are far more dangerous than guns.

Gospel!

Watch out for the Hock marketing attack!

Your best bet when fighting someone with a knife, stick, club or gun is a big ass gun and lots of distance. Or if you don't have distance the big ass gun will help, but it ain't the end all be all without distance and time. Not very encouraging words but hey.

As for Kali, Escremia, and other Phillipene Martial Arts(FMA) they are great, but the CQC stuff is still damn important. The USA is not the Phillipines, it's not Mexico, it's not France, it's not Japan and the way people fight with knives is different in all of those countries. The techniques and tactics to handle the attacks from a FMA guy are not the best for dealing with a prison yank and shank nor the sewing machine. But the CQC stuff is good at it, and the FMA training helps to develop skills that carry over but the modern CQC concepts are important.

If someone is gonna stick you with a knife it's not gonna be a FMA style duel unless he is trying to intimidate or is a FMA guy. It's going to be an assasination attempt, you are gonna be in a fist fight and then notice you are bleeding and wheezing from a hole in your lung or your gonna get blind sided and have your guts pumped.

I trained with an Kali guy once and he flat out admited that some of that stuff doesn't work with an "American" style of attack. So I would train FMA and CQC if I could.

Sparky, I am not sure what "type" of FMA guy you've trained with, but I can tell you without a doubt that the training received from a good kali instructor is outstanding for whatever "style" of blade fight you are thinking about. It would absolutely be applicable to an "American" style attack.

Knife fighting "FMA style" is nothing like a "duel", but it is absolutely "guerilla" style knife fighting that can come out of anywhere "assassination" style, whatever that is. A good kali guy will never let you know that he's got a blade until it is much too late.

I've been around the arts for 24 years, kali, muay thai, and BJJ in particular for the majority of the time; and the FMA that you just described is nothing like what a good FMA trained fighter looks like. Not tryin to call ya out bro, but thats just not an accurate potrayal. There is no better blade art in the world than one of the kali or esrima arts. A good kali or escrima teacher is not showing stuff that worked eons ago, they are showing things that are VERY relavant in todays world.

In fact, the BEST blade "style" that I have ever seen, is done by the Sayoc family. I've only trained with one of their guru's a few times, I wish I could do more; but I can say that it is the best that I've ever seen. And I've seen a lot. Check em out:  www.sayoc.com
And find a guy near you just to try it out.

Unfortunatly you are not going to find a school that will start you off learning dissarms and counters until you hit advanced levels. Filipino and Indonisian arts will start you on counters and dissarms a little sooner, once you develop timing and reflexes.

I will say that as much as I dislike Krav Maga, they will teach you dissarms pretty quick, but you only get half the story. I doubt very seriously you get to learn weapons usage.

Tj, I have to respectifully dissagree with you on the Aikido aspect. Internal arts take Waaaaay to long to learn and master. Aikido especially takes a lot of sensitivity to learn.

Aikijuijitsu would be a better choice. Not many schools around anymore.

My personal recommendation would be to look for a FMA(especially a Kali) or Indonisian (silat / kung tao) or a Southern style Kung-fu (wing chun for easy sake, lots of counter and trapping) if those are not avaliable Kuk-sool-wan (Korean) and Kenpo.

Stay far away from Tae Kwon do, it does build stamenia and flexability power and speed but not really good for much else.

Same goes for any "belt factory" or "Tournament School" if you see that, you will never learn to fight.  Other than tourny sparring.

This advice comes from over 28 years in martial arts, many styles and teaching for the past 11 years a modern kung-fu style.   But of course YMMV.

Agreed, martial arts especially those with a lot to offer  forms, self defense, weapons(long, short, hinged, bladed and double) trapping, ground fighting, mass attack and internal are styles that become a lifestyle. Hopkido, a daughter style to Kook Sul Wan, is one of those styles. IIRC, is stops short in the internal parts ( I believe it does some San Chin (hard chi-kung). Correct me if I'm wrong.

When watching lifelong practicioners in internal arts is simply amazing. John Painter comes to mind. He talks a lot of shit, but check out 9 dragon Baguazhan sometime.

Also if you deal with a style that has multiple soulutions to a situation you can tailor it to your limitations. Knowing how a technique works and the principal behind it gives you applicable knowledge rather than "monkey see, monkey do" it allows you to grow.

RiceCakes, the simple answer to your question is there is no simple answer. You need to find a weapons school. Chinese, FMA and higher tier Korean and Japenese schools do this (generally in that order). If you walk into a school and see weapons of *all* types, you are in the right ballpark.Look for usage/application rather than form schools *see my previous post about this*

Good Luck.

One thing that I like about Krav Maga is that they teach one defense that will work against multiple types of attacks.  Is this defense the best for each kind... probably not.  But when you see an attack out of the corner of you eye, you don't know if its a knife, stick or bare hand, you need to react and react fast.  Having a defense that will work for all is the easiest and quickest way to learn.

Krav is not an offense art, its self defense that was designed to be taught to people of any age or skill level, designed to be taught and learned quickly inorder to give you basic self defense on the street.

Sparky, FMA teaches defense and attack based on angles of movement. The shortest distance between Point A and Point B is no different in Mexico than it is in France. A 45 degree angle is the same in Korea as it is in the Bronx.

FMA uses basic geometry and well thought out principles.

If you like Sayoc, then check out the atienzakali.com.

I watched these guys litterally shred Tuhon Chris Sayoc's top students....three of them at a time!!!!!

Sparky, you're talking nonsense.

Quoted: Sparky, FMA teaches defense and attack based on angles of movement. The shortest distance between Point A and Point B is no different in Mexico than it is in France. A 45 degree angle is the same in Korea as it is in the Bronx. FMA uses basic geometry and well thought out principles. If you like Sayoc, then check out the atienzakali.com. I watched these guys litterally shred Tuhon Chris Sayoc's top students....three of them at a time!!!!! Sparky, you're talking nonsense.

Everyone thinks they are even going to know that a knife is in play when they need there anti weapons fighting. It's not going to happen that way.

And what makes you think you are going to be slashed? Let's be realistic about this. If you are attacked by someone with a weapon you are more than likely going to be stabbed. Out of the 3 accounts of folks I know getting in fights where knives were involved none new that the weapon was in play until they were cut. Two were stabbed and one was slashed. The guy that got slashed was cut by a drunk in a bar fight that new he was going to get the ass whooping of a lifetime.

The training most criminals have on knives is from prison and the jail house. And in jail most people have shanks and shivs, not blades. So the criminal element has experience with this. And they will attack you in a similar manner as what they did in the jail house. Violent cyclic stabs to the face and neck, and when they get the neck they will try to wiggle the shank to catch as much vitals as possible. They are going to blindside you or they are going to rush you and tackle you and run the sewing machine on your guts. No angles or slashes, very linear. Thats how a shank works.

If you want the reality of knives and such talk to someone who is a prison guard, or someone who has done hard time they can tell you how shit goes down in the USA dealing with american scumbags.

Edited to Add:

Don't get me wrong FMA and Indonesian arts have a lot to offer, but all I am trying to say is that it is a good idea to train in FMA blade work and look into CQC concepts and LEO survival type training.

I personally think for Offensive Knife work FMA is the only way to go. But for defensive techniques I think the LEO community and more specfic Corrections guys have been dealing with this for years, thus CQC is the way to go. They have seen the techniques that the criminals use and that you are most likely to have to defend, and modern CQC reflects that best.  

Hey Sparky. Great discussioin. By angle I also mean stabs, not just slashes. It doesn't matter if a number 1 (which is an overhand slash/stab aimed for your left colar bone/neck angling down diagonally towards your right hip) for instance is a stabbing or slashing motion, the foot work and checking tecniques are the same. In addition FMA teaches to defend/check against strokes that continue through the arc of attack OR retract for multiple "jabs."

So by angle I don't mean telegraphed, wide angle slashes. Defending against quick "gut jabs" are part of the game as well.
Like I said before the shortest distance between Point A and Point B is a straight line...a jab.

Are you reffering to James O. Bacon's CQCTI? If so, he's appearantly an FMA guy, at least it's in his creds...Alos he's a Hock Hocheim dude as well. Also an FMA guy.

Are you a Bacon student in Chattanooga?

James is one of Hock's head trainers in TN.  Very knowledgable and capable guy.  I had the oppertunity to train with him for four days down in Valdosta, GA a while back.  

If you are looking for pure weapon defense, spending a year or years learning it is foolish.  There isn't anything advanced about it (unless you have something to market).  Want to see some solid counter weapon material?  Check out (in addition to Hock's work) Tony Blauer's "Controling the Blade", Joe Maffei's "Reality of Edged Weapons", Karl Transwell "STAB", Jerry Wetzel's "Red Zone", and James Keating's "Unarmed and Dangerous". All of it is top notch stuff and doesn't take years to learn.

All of the above mentined dudes have FMA backgrounds...nuff said...

Krav Maga is the fast food of fighting arts. Actually it's more like the Amway...

Don't trust your life to it.

Hate to disagree with you Patrol, but you can never spend enough time training any type of self defense discipline. Any of the guys you mention wouldn't dare disagree with me on that point. All of them have dedicated their lives to their arts and helping others master them.
Yeah, they all want to sell books and learn-all-the-tecniques-you-ever-need-to-know-in-one-weekend DVD sets, but truth be known, they've spent years and years perfecting those arts. For the most part they are all "repackaging"  traditional FMA systems.

Quoted: Hey Sparky. Great discussioin. By angle I also mean stabs, not just slashes. It doesn't matter if a number 1 (which is an overhand slash/stab aimed for your left colar bone/neck angling down diagonally towards your right hip) for instance is a stabbing or slashing motion, the foot work and checking tecniques are the same. In addition FMA teaches to defend/check against strokes that continue through the arc of attack OR retract for multiple "jabs." So by angle I don't mean telegraphed, wide angle slashes. Defending against quick "gut jabs" are part of the game as well. Like I said before the shortest distance between Point A and Point B is a straight line...a jab. Are you reffering to James O. Bacon's CQCTI? If so, he's appearantly an FMA guy, at least it's in his creds...Alos he's a Hock Hocheim dude as well. Also an FMA guy. Are you a Bacon student in Chattanooga?

Nope

I train with a guy who has trained with a company called ShivWorks, it's more of a study group than anything. And I am familiar with the "Red Zone" system as mentioned below. I like the "Red Zone" it's fairly simple and direct.

We have a Combatives Study Group that meets in Alcoa, TN. We are looking for new and experienced folks for the group. We sort of take turns teaching material we know, not much for tradition.

We work a lot of open hand striking, knees, elbows, low kicks, stomping. We work a lot of ground fighting stuff, positional work, getting up and the hell out.

We do Red Zone knife defense, it seems to work best in our trials. The offensive knife work is based on ShivWorks material which is stolen from Pikal Tekrit (sp.) style Kali. A lot of reverse edge with a locked wrist grip.

We have both trained with Tactical Response on pistol work. We shoot about once a month as a group. We do a lot of in fight weapons access stuff with Blue Guns and training folders.

We are going to get some MMA style gloves and Fist Helmets so we can work getting the blaster in actoin while getting the shit beat out of us. So far we have been using kicking pads with no blows to the head.

We have been doing some "Fighting in a Phone Booth" where you have to work striking drills with one foot placed on a strip of tape. And we set up rooms with mats and work drills in those, mostly with kicking pads.

My MA experience is 8.5 years of Kyokushin Karate with some police style defensive tactics thrown in, I am currently training in Judo now. The other training regular is a studnet of Shoot Fighting, wresteled in HS and college, and is a Judoka too. We have another guy who is a Japanese Jiu Jitsu guy and another pure MMA guy.

A pretty well rounded group. But we are always looking for new members and/or guest instructors. So if you are in Knoxville and interested or know of someone who might be interested in doing a siminar let me know.

Edited to add:

I trained in Aikido for about 6 months, it sucked. But one of the Sensei there was raised in the Phillipenes, his parents were missonaries. He gave me a little instruction in Kali and that is where the conversation about the Felon Yank and Shank VS. FMA came up.

I wish I could learn more FMA knife work, I liked it.

Quoted: All of the above mentined dudes have FMA backgrounds...nuff said... Krav Maga is the fast food of martial arts. Actually it's more like the Amway of martial arts. Don't trust your life to it.

I agree 100% with this, Krap Magnum is teh suk.

You would be better off training in FMA and going to some CQC seminars as possible.

Quoted: All of the above mentined dudes have FMA backgrounds...nuff said...

- just because the people listed have FMA backgrounds doesnt mean studying FMA is the way to go.  Why reinvent the wheel?

I'm not reinventing the wheel, all of the guys you mention are...actually they're just selling it as their own product.
I don't have a problem with that at all, in fact. I think what they do is very usefull.

They each have a different teaching methodology and that is what makes them all unique to the marketplace of ideas etc.

But at the core they are all using FMA as a baseline. That's my point. There are thousands of guys each teaching ever so slightly differing systems, but it is all generally called FMA. FMA instructors may teach blends from several different family systems.

The blend I train is called Maphilindo (short for Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesian blend.) My senior instructor has just been accepted as an affiliate under Leo Gaje (Pekiti Tersia) so we'll start mixing that "flavor" into the pot as well.

The same could be said of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. There are dozens of flavors, different methodologies, but it's all BJJ. We could argue all day long about who's system is better, the Machado's or Pedro Sauer's or whoever, but we'd still be talking about BJJ, right?

I would recommend any of the guys you mention for blade defense, knowing that it's some blend of FMA. It's just a matter of what teaching method suites the end user best.

Sparky, sounds like you have a very cool training team. Awesome.

But at the core they are all using FMA as a baseline

- Actually they aren't.  Now Hock and Keating obviously teach with a heavy FMA base.  The same could be said for Joe Maffei.  However Wetzel, Transwell, and Blauer aren't using FMA as a base for their material and it is readily apparent.

And when it comes to reinventing the wheel my point is this. If your goal is to learn weapon disarms/counter-weapon material; why forge the same road others have ? I dont see the need in training in FMA for 20 years in order to learn a skill set that is already prepped for you, unless you truely love the martial art itself.

Think of the purpose of styles - each one is meant for a different scenario. Many apples and oranges here.

For what you want, you want to close the range so your opponents weapon is no longer effective. You want something close in, that will allow you to control or discard the weapon in question.

Jiu-jitsu is, I believe, the answer to this need. Aikido is mainly a style of redirection, meant to usher an opponent out of your space if he is advancing on you.

But if an opponent is smart and with a weapon, his best use will be range. If we wants to kill you from a distance, he will - you can't do much about this than either shoot back if possible or run, because you can't control the path of bullets.

If he is close, chances are he wants something else if he is to throw away his greatest advantage. Utilize this and bring the game into your favor by practicing a style of close combat.

Patrol,
The initial question was: What would people recommend for fighting against knives/canes/guns/etc? Im interested in learning disarming techniques or counters for these.
I'm not sure RiceCakes wants to "forge a road" here...he wants to know what system or family of systems he can study to defend himself. I'm not saying train for 20 years either, although I may indeed do just that. But not just FMA, it's just a small part of the picture for me.

1) You are  wrong on Wetzel. He's certified in FMA under Paul Vunak, who I'm am associated with, since my instructor is one of Vunaks associate level instructors. Vunak is in turn associated with Guro Inosanto, who brought FMA to the States back in the day. Wetzel is a total FMA dude.

2) You are  also wrong on Keating, who refers to himself as Master at Arms (oh brother.) His website refers to the "5 steps to Kali" and "7 Steps to Silat" (Kali's Indonesian cousin art.) He's an FMA dude who seems to think very highly of himself.

3) Also wrong on Joe Maffei. He's a total FMA dude. He lists Kali, Silat and Escrima on his web site under courses.

These guys just package things differently to get a piece of the pie...I applaud it!

As for Tony Blauer he may or may not be an FMA guy, but he sure knows how to package, brand and, I'm sure, sell the hell out of body padding for training to Law Enforcement. One thing is for sure, he believes in training full contact! He dosn't list his training associations. I'd be shocked as hell if he dosn't have FMA training. I have a call in to find out...I'll keep you posted.

Can't find much on the web regarding Karl Transwell...probably an FMA guy as well

Five of the seven guys you refer to are FMA instructors! Looks like you're giving very good advice and agreeing with my initial assertion. ALL ROADS LEAD TO FMA my friend.

Sorry to disagree Blackjack, my FMA instructor, who is also a Black Belt in Aiki-JuJitsu, says "NO GO" on Jap arts for real blade defense. Aikido!?!?! Are you kidding? There isn't any real resistance given in Aikido training!!!! People don't charge full steam ahead with knives, except in Segal movies!!!

Peace out

Quoted: Patrol, The initial question was: What would people recommend for fighting against knives/canes/guns/etc? Im interested in learning disarming techniques or counters for these. I'm not sure RiceCakes wants to "forge a road" here...he wants to know what system or family of systems he can study to defend himself.

- I realize that.  That's exactly why I listed what I did and continue to make the point that if you are looking for weapon defense, why go learn an entire system when someone already has what you are looking for in a nice, neat concise package?  

1) You are  wrong on Wetzel. He's certified in FMA under Paul Vunak, who I'm am associated with, since my instructor is one of Vunaks associate level instructors. Vunak is in turn associated with Guro Inosanto, who brought FMA to the States back in the day. Wetzel is a total FMA dude.

- Who nowadays isnt a certifed trainer of some degree under Vu?  While Jerry may have a certification under VU, you don't see any of that in his Red Zone material (nor any of his other stuff that I've seen). I think his association with Matt Thorton and the Straight Blast Gym kinda limited the Filipino influence in his work.

2) You are  also wrong on Keating, who refers to himself as Master at Arms (oh brother.) His website refers to the "5 steps to Kali" and "7 Steps to Silat" (Kali's Indonesian cousin art.) He's an FMA dude who seems to think very highly of himself.

- Uh, I listed Keating as having a heavy base in FMA.

3) Also wrong on Joe Maffei. He's a total FMA dude. He lists Kali, Silat and Escrima on his web site under courses.

- I also included Joe as having a FMA influnced system.  A lot of his knife work has heavy Filipino influence and he used to ( and maybe still does, I havent talked to him in a couple of years) include Hubud as a primary training tool for developing timing.

As for Tony Blauer he may or may not be an FMA guy, but he sure knows how to package, brand and, I'm sure, sell the hell out of body padding for training to Law Enforcement. One thing is for sure, he believes in training full contact! He dosn't list his training associations. I'd be shocked as hell if he dosn't have FMA training. I have a call in to find out...I'll keep you posted.

- If Tony has any FMA influence to him (which I didnt see the entire time I was associated with him) it came from his yearly days when he was heavily into Bruce Lee and the JKD circles that used to run with Lee.

Five of the seven guys you refer to are FMA instructors! Looks like you're giving very good advice and agreeing with my initial assertion. ALL ROADS LEAD TO FMA my friend.

- You couldn't be any more incorrect.  Just because someone has a certain certifcation to their name doesn't mean they continue to use that material anymore.  Look at Red Zone and STAB.  The material comes more from Greco-Roman/Freestyle wrestling than any FMA system. A true martial artist is constantly evolving and his work, if he is an instructor in particular, should reflect this.

Partol, this is a great discussion. Thanks for your input.

I haven't looked into those particular books or programs. I will check them out based on your recommendation. Sounds a bit fishy to me. Greco Roman/and Freestyle wrestling to counter blades? Sounds like a recipe for getting cut really bad...but I'll check it out.

I find it hard to believe that after training in FMA these guys aren't using the tecniques, even if they are slightly modified and evolved.
After all, they list FMA arts as class courses they teach (with the exception of Blauer, who only uses his marketing saavy "SPEAR" and so forth.)

If these guys have "evolved" from FMA to write these books and produce learn-it-a-weekend DVDs, then why do they still teach FMA in their schools? It just doesn't make any since to me. What makes more since is this: They learned FMA, which is highly effective, studied it for many years and still endorse the concepts, which is obvious because they still teach them to students in class. When it comes to feeding our "need it now" American mentality they write a book, or even easier, because we are lazy and don't want to read, they produce a DVD. The knowledge can be absorbed while we sit on the couch with a beer in hand.

I missed your comment about Keating in your earlier post, sorry about that.

You answered one of my questions about Blauer. So he also comes from the JKD/Inosanto background. Interesting...


Edit. I just got an email from my FMA Guro, Bryan Mossey. I emailed him last night to see what he knew about Blauer. He has no details about the discussion we are now having, and he said, verbatum "the only tecniques I've ever seen him (Blauer) employ are SILAT and KALI. Anyone can create their own system with good marketing and be successful."

Quoted: Partol, this is a great discussion. Thanks for your input.

- I have quite a history when it comes to DT/martial art material; I simply havent focused on it as much as I used to hence my few contributions to these talks.  It feels good to be talking about this subject (martial arts) again.

Sounds a bit fishy to me. Greco Roman/and Freestyle wrestling to counter blades? Sounds like a recipe for getting cut really bad...but I'll check it out.

- Dont be put off by the wrestling influence.  Instead spending all of their time learning how to pass, check, trap, etc; they focus on securing the weapon-bearing limb and going from there. One of the primary techniques covered is the 2-on-1 arm control.

After all, they list FMA arts as class courses they teach (with the exception of Blauer, who only uses his marketing saavy "SPEAR" and so forth.)

- Neither Blauer, Transwell, nor Wetzel list FMA classes as things they teach.  

Also, guys like Maffei state their programs have an FMA influence, but don't teach a pure FMA program.  The only person I know without a doubt that still runs a pure FMA program (of the guys I listed) is Hock.  He has a seperate FMA program from his main CQC course.

When it comes to feeding our "need it now" American mentality they write a book, or even easier, because we are lazy and don't want to read, they produce a DVD. The knowledge can be absorbed while we sit on the couch with a beer in hand.

- Books and videos are created to help supplement hands-on training. I dont think anyone releases a video or book and expects you to learn from it while just sitting on your sofa.  The material is there to serve as a guide for when you lack a coach to observe your every training session.  

You answered one of my questions about Blauer. So he also comes from the JKD/Inosanto background. Interesting...

- I guess he does.  I honestly dont know who he trained with back in those days.  I dont recall him ever having said specifically.

Edit. I just got an email from my FMA Guro, Bryan Mossey. I emailed him last night to see what he knew about Blauer. He has no details about the discussion we are now having, and he said, verbatum "the only tecniques I've ever seen him (Blauer) employ are SILAT and KALI. Anyone can create their own system with good marketing and be successful."

- I cant say that  see a Silat or Kali influence in his system.  If anything, there is much more of a Muay Thai/western boxing influence along with what could be best described as a more fluid WW2 era combatives toolbox.  With that being siad, Blauer has already said that his material is more to serve as an augmentation to what you already know, not a knew system to learn.

Quoted: Quoted: .Sounds a bit fishy to me. Greco Roman/and Freestyle wrestling to counter blades? Sounds like a recipe for getting cut really bad...but I'll check it out. - Dont be put off by the wrestling influence.  Instead spending all of their time learning how to pass, check, trap, etc; they focus on securing the weapon-bearing limb and going from there. One of the primary techniques covered is the 2-on-1 arm control.

The 2 on 1 arm control with a baseball bat type grip, then you drive the arm strait into the ground and use your foot on the top of the blade or stab them in the leg with there knife untill they drop or let go of the blade. It works well in the trial runs we have done and it's simple as knife defense can be.


And I thought the same thing PUBBOY about the wresteling influence, but with training blades it works. You get cut less than other methods and the Red Zone is semi diagnostic. It does not rely on reading your opponent as much as some of the other methods I have seen. The stuff we did in Kyokushin required a specific attack, the Red Zone method works well against a multitude of attacks.

I've also been pretty successful with using the 2-on-1 when it comes to firearm disarms/control.  My pattern is uauslly about the same, gain control of the weapon bearing limb, start to unbalance the guy through pulls or pushes, and then I uually end up driving them into some kind of obstacle and working from there.

I do my work with numerous police recruits and other officers when I serve as a role player in scenrios with them.  And let me add, the High Gear suits are awesome for this role.  Much better than FIST or Redman.

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