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Posted: 7/30/2018 3:19:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Freak out over nothing.
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Posted: 7/30/2018 3:21:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Ruh roh, Shaggy!
This is an ominous development. @RockHard13F |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 3:21:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Aaaarrrgh! Dreaded double-tap.
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Posted: 7/30/2018 3:30:58 PM EDT
[#4]
So if an AR has two+ serial numbers how many boolits do I get with each trigger action?
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Posted: 7/30/2018 3:33:07 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: HOW ABOUT NO! This nit picking about absolute bs to construe and infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights is absolutely disgusting and insulting. It is the very definition of infringement. So how about NO! It's time to shut the ATF down and give their actual responsibilities to a body that won't abuse them like they do. They aren't law enforcement, they think they are law makers. So wrong. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 3:33:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The upper has always been the serialized part, ("the firearm") on Ruger MKxxx pistols. https://ruger.com/products/markIVTarget/images/40103.jpg 
@America-first No, not correct. See this gun? The Armalite AR180b? The UPPER is the serialized receiver: 
Same with the Sig 556. Yet, the Sig shares much with the AK, but the sheet-metal shell of the lower (to the extent there is any upper/lower on an AK) is serialized. On the HK it's the upper. And as far as the Ruger MKII you posted, the upper is the serialized part, while on the Buckmark, it is the opposite. On the AR15, the lower is serialized, is it is with the AR10. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 3:43:15 PM EDT
[#7]
So if I have two serial numbers for one gun, shouldn’t it be ok for it to fire twice for one trigger pull? Two numbers, two bullets?
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Posted: 7/30/2018 3:44:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if I have two serial numbers for one gun, shouldn't it be ok for it to fire twice for one trigger pull? Two numbers, two bullets? |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:01:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Makes sense from their point of view. Uppers are a lot harder to make than lowers.
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:03:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who in the wide wide world of sports wrote a letter to the ATF? |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:05:07 PM EDT
[#11]
FPNI.
That's like calling an engine an automobile. It's a Fucking part. It's not the chassis. 
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:08:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What was this? I'm not familiar. They made people add the serial number to the upper on FNC's |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:12:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don’t let facts interrupt a potentially epic GD melt down. You gotta play the long game people. You know they are. So they pass this one, wait a little while for the gun nuts to settle and then expand it to say that any part that allows the connection of a barrel is considered a gun. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:12:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
The frame or receiver of any such weapon; Any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or Any destructive device. Here is your ATF definition. Technically an AR upper and a Glock upper will both fire without the lower attached |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:20:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ruh roh, Shaggy! This is an ominous development. @RockHard13F I find this unsurprising. I predicted this when the 8mm MG34esque AR upper was declared a firearm in and of itself- and I was laughed at. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:24:14 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Next logical step is to make all barrels a firearm. That would cover every thing. It is also what they use to tie a gun to a crime. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:24:46 PM EDT
[#17]
The ATF is such a worthwhile and awesome agency
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:27:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except for FALs Or M1 Carbines Or AR180s Or SCARs Or CZ Bren Or ACRs ....never really thought about it before but the AR15 is quite the anomaly. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:31:50 PM EDT
[#19]
I am guessing this semi-automatic gun is probably one of the reasons the ATF has their panties in a collective bunch:
Look closely: yes, that IS a normal semi-auto AR15 lower you see. It's mated to the modified receiver of a surplus MG-34 machine gun. It will ONLY fire in semi-auto. IIRC, the ATF was not happy about this gun at all. Maybe someone else can better explain what happened. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:38:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or HKs Or M1 Carbines Or AR180s Or SCARs Or CZ Bren Or ACRs ....never really thought about it before but the AR15 is quite the anomaly. 
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:39:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmm. Some company wanted to import a .50 cal upper so the ATF looked at it and said that particular one incorporated a receiver. Wonder how many read the letter before firing off their fingers? |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:41:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I dont see how they can do that retro actively. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:43:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Has it been said yet? Abolish the ATF?
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:43:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Generally, the part with the recoil spring and feed device is the serialized part. AR lower vs MP5 upper.
If they are split, it goes between the recoil spring vs the feed mech. Usually the recoil spring. Quoted:
Or HKs Or M1 Carbines Or AR180s Or SCARs Or CZ Bren Or ACRs ....never really thought about it before but the AR15 is quite the anomaly. Quoted:
I am guessing this semi-automatic gun is probably one of the reasons the ATF has their panties in a collective bunch: https://www.brpguns.com/product_images/uploaded_images/xmgadc.jpg Look closely: yes, that IS a normal semi-auto AR15 lower you see. It's mated to the modified receiver of a surplus MG-34 machine gun. It will ONLY fire in semi-auto. IIRC, the ATF was not happy about this gun at all. Maybe someone else can better explain what happened. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:47:00 PM EDT
[#25]
These .50 cal Uppers are used by criminals in drive-by shootings all the time. Reasonable gun control restrictions to curb this is necessary.
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:47:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It’s ok, Trump is the ATFs boss now He won’t let them do it 
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:49:01 PM EDT
[#27]
That letter was written by someone illiterate in the English language.
It's full of self-contradictions. It reads like an adolescent trying to explain his way out of a grounding or other punishment. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 4:56:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hence they’ll want it both ways....uppers AND lowers registered. I see a market coming for 80% uppers and un-chambered barrels. Or Brazillian style open bolt smooth-bores. "Daddy, why are springs illegal?" |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:00:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So before everyone reads the thread title and panics, the letter basically states that the ATF considers the reciever ON A BOLT ACTION to be the part which houses the bolt and barrel. This does not affect 99% of AR uppers. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:00:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First thing I thought of. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
FPNI Also looks like that would probably apply to AR57 uppers. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:08:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
FPNI Also looks like that would probably apply to AR57 uppers. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:10:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I need two firearms to build my firearm?  |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:15:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
FPNI Also looks like that would probably apply to AR57 uppers. Shit like that is bound to draw attention. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:15:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @backbencher this would also apply to 5.7 uppers and the Lyndon, no? As someone's pointed out above, they already came for a belt-fed upper that had the action spring. They got their little bite, which few noticed, and now they've come for more. Now it's .50 BMGs. Then AR uppers that have the action spring in them, like the Olympic upper, ARAK-21, or the new 9x19mm one that @Mad-Machinist is helping prototype. Next will be uppers w/ their own magazine (AR57) and all belt-fed uppers, or they'll categorize trigger jigs as firearms. Once they've done that, they'll come for all AR uppers based on the bolt and bbl functioning in the same way as their .50 BMG upper ruling. All gun-control is a slippery slope to hell, and this particular run is teflon-coated. While gas-operated & piston uppers are a little difficult to make (not too hard to weld together out of steel), a side-charging blowback upper can be made from stacking PVC pipes. An AR receiver is at its heart a 1" tube with holes and slots cut in the front. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:20:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why? I've wondered since BOHICA said ATF told them their uppers were firearms if the ATF would someday come back and say the AR57's are firearm receivers. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:22:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The way the fuckers worded it, they could apply it to all AR uppers in existence except the muzzle loader & crossbow - all AR uppers mount the barrel and have a bolt. I'm not aware of any falling-block AR upper. As someone's pointed out above, they already came for a belt-fed upper that had the action spring. They got their little bite, which few noticed, and now they've come for more. Now it's .50 BMGs. Then AR uppers that have the action spring in them, like the Olympic upper, ARAK-21, or the new 9x19mm one that @Mad-Machinist is helping prototype. Next will be uppers w/ their own magazine (AR57) and all belt-fed uppers, or they'll categorize trigger jigs as firearms. Once they've done that, they'll come for all AR uppers based on the bolt and bbl functioning in the same way as their .50 BMG upper ruling. All gun-control is a slippery slope to hell, and this particular run is teflon-coated. While gas-operated & piston uppers are a little difficult to make (not too hard to weld together out of steel), a side-charging blowback upper can be made from stacking PVC pipes. An AR receiver is at its heart a 1" tube with holes and slots cut in the front. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:29:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I forget who it was, but an Arfcommer recently made a functioning AR57 build with no lower receiver, just an AR57 upper and a trigger jig. No serial number at all, as far as I could tell. Shit like that is bound to draw attention.
http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/effortLyndon.html 
After this, they'll either go after the AR57 & the side-feeding AR45 uppers, the AR uppers containing action springs (ARAK-21, Olympic, etc), or trigger jigs. They may have a hard time w/ trigger jigs, as there's a trigger jig in nearly every pump & semi-auto shotgun. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:31:43 PM EDT
[#38]
So will we all have to engrave serial numbers on the ones we have?
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:34:27 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would be me. I have written no letters to BATFE about it. https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/effortLyndon.html http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/FirstAssembly.jpg After this, they'll either go after the AR57 & the side-feeding AR45 uppers, the AR uppers containing action springs (ARAK-21, Olympic, etc), or trigger jigs. They may have a hard time w/ trigger jigs, as there's a trigger jig in nearly every pump & semi-auto shotgun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I forget who it was, but an Arfcommer recently made a functioning AR57 build with no lower receiver, just an AR57 upper and a trigger jig. No serial number at all, as far as I could tell. Shit like that is bound to draw attention. http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/effortLyndon.html http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/FirstAssembly.jpg After this, they'll either go after the AR57 & the side-feeding AR45 uppers, the AR uppers containing action springs (ARAK-21, Olympic, etc), or trigger jigs. They may have a hard time w/ trigger jigs, as there's a trigger jig in nearly every pump & semi-auto shotgun. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:36:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A decent argument can be made that ATF screwed up with the first AR/M16 in allowing Colt to put the SN on the lower and consider it to be the firearm. But I'm happy it's worked out this way. Makes swapping SBR/MG uppers easy. A year or two ago, there was an ARish manufacturer who got their upper certified as a firearm, and priced it up around $3K. I've always wondered if that was a false-flag to prepare for the ruling after this one. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:36:49 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That would be me. I have written no letters to BATFE about it. https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/effortLyndon.html http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/FirstAssembly.jpg After this, they'll either go after the AR57 & the side-feeding AR45 uppers, the AR uppers containing action springs (ARAK-21, Olympic, etc), or trigger jigs. They may have a hard time w/ trigger jigs, as there's a trigger jig in nearly every pump & semi-auto shotgun.  I think it's a sweet effort, regardless of whether it draws unwanted attention or not.
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:36:59 PM EDT
[#42]
It's a bolt action rifle without the trigger group attached. It's practically no different from a Remington 700 with the trigger group and stock taken off.
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:48:48 PM EDT
[#43]
That's a lot of tortured legalese thinking.
So, I should just go with the semi-fully-automatic .50 cal. upper instead of the fully-semi-automatic bolt-action .50 cal. upper? |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 5:49:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol! How many unserialized AR uppers are out there? Yeah, that'll work... |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 6:00:59 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 7/30/2018 6:07:18 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would be me. I have written no letters to BATFE about it. https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_abused.gif http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/effortLyndon.html http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/FirstAssembly.jpg After this, they'll either go after the AR57 & the side-feeding AR45 uppers, the AR uppers containing action springs (ARAK-21, Olympic, etc), or trigger jigs. They may have a hard time w/ trigger jigs, as there's a trigger jig in nearly every pump & semi-auto shotgun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I forget who it was, but an Arfcommer recently made a functioning AR57 build with no lower receiver, just an AR57 upper and a trigger jig. No serial number at all, as far as I could tell. Shit like that is bound to draw attention. http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/effortLyndon.html http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/FirstAssembly.jpg After this, they'll either go after the AR57 & the side-feeding AR45 uppers, the AR uppers containing action springs (ARAK-21, Olympic, etc), or trigger jigs. They may have a hard time w/ trigger jigs, as there's a trigger jig in nearly every pump & semi-auto shotgun. 
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Posted: 7/30/2018 6:08:57 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am guessing this semi-automatic gun is probably one of the reasons the ATF has their panties in a collective bunch: https://www.brpguns.com/product_images/uploaded_images/xmgadc.jpg Look closely: yes, that IS a normal semi-auto AR15 lower you see. It's mated to the modified receiver of a surplus MG-34 machine gun. It will ONLY fire in semi-auto. IIRC, the ATF was not happy about this gun at all. Maybe someone else can better explain what happened. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 6:12:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know the old saying. Two is one and one is none. The FATF is taking that literally. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 6:16:32 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a bolt action rifle without the trigger group attached. It's practically no different from a Remington 700 with the trigger group and stock taken off. |
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Posted: 7/30/2018 6:18:50 PM EDT
[#50]
Anyone know why AR57 pulled the plug on their own product?
http://www.57center.com/6m8/ar57-upper-assembly.html Was it the result of ATF pressure? |
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