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Posted: 9/5/2001 8:03:54 PM EDT
Hello, I am a newbie & hope that maybe one of you can help me out. I purchased a pre-Ban Colt AR-15 from a private individual who is not a FFL holder & lives in another state. He is from Florida & I live in New York (Upstate) I went to the local gun shop & asked him if he would accept a gun for me that I had just bought. He said "yes", told me it would be $25 for the paperwork, and asked me where to send his FFL copy. I gave him the address of the seller & the gun arrived over two weeks ago. First off, he tells me he cannot let me have it till I get him a letter from Colt stating it is indeed a pre-ban gun. I contact Colt & they fax him a letter several days later. Finally I go into the gun shop, sign some paperwork, pass the background check, and receive the rifle. All's good....... Yesterday he calls me up on the phone & tells me that the transfer was illegal, because the seller is not a FFL holder, and I have 24 hours to surrender the gun to him or he will call the BATF & have me arrested....... I contacted the seller in Florida & he says that a non FFL holder (him) can ship a gun to a FFL holder(my local gun shop) for transfer to another non FFL holder (me) I need to know if the transfer is considered legal by the BATF........ My gun shop insists that it must be shiped from one FFL to another FFL for it to be legal. The seller in Florida says that it was legal for him to ship it to my local FFL holder without his having to have another FFL holder ship it to my local FFL... In the meantime, I was forced to surrender my gun today, after having it for over one week, to my local gun shop (The Gun Brokerage, Utica,NY). He threatened to have me arrested if I did not turn it in to him....... I felt like I had no choice........He said he never should have allowed me to take it out of the store over a week ago...... Told me it was a felony & I would be arrested..... Can anyone PLEASE help me out with this?? What is the law on tranfering a firearm ?? Hope someone can help me.....
Link Posted: 9/5/2001 9:57:22 PM EDT
Your dealer is a moron and an asshole. An FFL can receive a firearm from an unlicensed individual in another state. Tell him to cite the exact statute or federal regulation that says otherwise. Additionally, you should demand to know what he is doing, or has done, with the gun. Has it been returned to the seller in FL, or is your FFL just planning on keeping the gun for himself? At the very least, have it shipped to another dealer and get it away from this idiot. If you can't find another local FFL to accept the gun, email me. Shaggy (FFL & Esq.)
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 3:57:10 AM EDT
Call the ATF on this guy! Sometimes they can be quite helpful when dealing with assholes who manage to get an FFL. Of course, search their pockets for matches, lighters, flint and steel kits, flares and tear gas before you tell them which shop you are having a problem with, or your Colt might go up in smoke. Kharn
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 4:07:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2001 4:18:54 AM EDT by Steve-in-VA]
Your FFL dealer is an ignorant asshole and you should tell him to have relations with himself, repeatedly. 18 USC 922(a)(2) makes it unlawful for anyone to ship out of state to anyone other than a licensed person. Law use to only carve out an exception to allow an [i]individual[/i] to ship out of state to have a firearm repaired. About three years ago that was changed to allow anyone to ship out of state so long as the shippee was licensed. 18 USC 922(a)(2)((A) now states, in pertinent part: [b]. . . ; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firarm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, [u]licensed dealer[/u], or licensed collecter;[/b] [[i]emphasis added[/i]] Email me your fax and I'll fax you a copy, or, just go to [URL]http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.text.html[/URL] and just download it. What a maroon (as Bugs would say). I just re-read (all of it this time) your post. WTF? He took back the AR? Tell him, today, that you are coming in at lunch time to retrieve the firearm (peacefully!). Give him the law and allow him to confirm the obvious. Tell him that when you come in, if he refuses to return the AR, you will leave and take immediate legal action, including getting the ATF involved (trust me, they will want to). Leave it up to him. Be firm but at least give him a safe out before you get the feds involved.
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 4:28:06 AM EDT
Tell your uninformed dealer to read the following from the ATF FAQ: B. UNLICENSED PERSONS (B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, [b]or to a licensee in any state.[/b] A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29]
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 5:55:51 AM EDT
Hello Again, Thanks for all the suggestions. At least now I know that I am dealing with a total moron who knows nothing about the law. I have again called the ignorant gun dealer and he still refuses to let me have the gun today. He insists that he is right and says " I don't care what other people say the law says, I know it is illegal to ship" I get absolutely nowhere with this guy, I just keep getting more frustrated...... I tried to phone the local BATF in Syracuse,NY & only got a recording. Pressed zero to speak with an operator and was disconnected. Tried again, same thing happened. What bad luck. My local gun dealer is : The Gun Brokerage Inc. 2120 Whitesboro Street Utica, NY (315) 792 - 4867 He is holding my gun now and refuses to return it to me even after I have shown him copies of the BATF regulations. He claims he knows the laws and that the rest of you are also breaking the law by shipping guns privately to a FFL holder........ He wants to ship the gun back to a FFL holder in Florida at my expense and then have me pay to have it shipped back up here to Upstate NY before I can get it back....... I still do not know how to deal with this FLAMER....... he refuses to listen to me and what I tell him others say relating to the laws and it being legal to transfer from a non FFL holder to a FFL holder........ Is there any way the BATF can pull this guys liscense for threatening me with jail time and confiscating my gun?? I'm at a loss as to what I should do........ Thanks, Jack
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 5:56:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 6:11:51 AM EDT
Yes, It is a Pre-Ban gun. He made me get a letter from Colt before he gave me the gun last week. The dealer listed above still has my gun and refuses to return it. The seller down in Florida cannot refund my money, as the gun is here in NYS locked up..... nor do I really want him to. I'd just like to get what is rightfully mine. As for calling the police, they do not want to get involved as far as I can tell. They tell me that the gun dealer must know the laws better than they do........ They said he is the expert in these area's and will take his word about the laws....... This whole thing is turning into a royal mess...... Thanks Again, Jack
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 7:01:47 AM EDT
If you can't get through to the BATF, keep trying, maybe the easiest way out would be to have him ship it back to Florida. Only get in touch with the dealer down there and have them ship it to a different NY dealer. Give Shaggy a call. He probably wouldn't send it to Shaggy as he still didn't receive the rifle from a dealer. This involves a lot more time and shipping charges. But it should get it out of this pricks hands and into yours. Keep trying to get a hold of the ATF. Do you know an attorney who would send this prick a letter explaining the law and consequences if he doesn't return YOUR stolen property?
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 7:36:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2001 7:48:10 AM EDT by shaggy]
First off, you've got to get the gun out of his possession. Even if you go there and he won't give you the entire rifle, take the upper, internals, stock and buffer off the gun. At least that way the stupid SOB can't shoot it himself and you have something of which you paid for. Everything but the lower receiver is unregulated and doesn't need an FFL to transfer - [i]get them off the gun and take them home[/i]. If he won't give you the parts, you know this guy is not only an ignoramus, but he's probably trying to rip you off. Additionally, if you have to ship it to another FFL to get it transferred to you, it will reduce the shipping weight & value so it won't cost as much in shipping. If he wants to ship it back to an FFL in FL, he at least knows another FFL can receive it. Have him send the lower receiver to another local FFL in NY and have it transfered to you from the next dealer.
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 7:56:56 AM EDT
You intimidate too easily. Goto your local sheriff/pd office and demand they take action. Not responding to your plea for help is not acceptable. They work for you. Tell the sheriff's dept that the sheriff or a deputy will goto the shop with you and assist you in recovering your property. Of course you never should have returned it in the first place. The sheriff can call the local ATF office and they will explain that everything was legal if he doubts your word.
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 7:58:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Foxy: He is holding my gun now and refuses to return it to me even after I have shown him copies of the BATF regulations. He claims he knows the laws and that the rest of you are also breaking the law by shipping guns privately to a FFL holder.
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This is why you need a license to practice law. Has this guy had a recent lobotomy or what? Steve In VA cited the correct sections of the law - if this doofus thinks he knows the law, tell him to show you where the law USC or CFR says otherwise. The fact is, he can't because there is no such law or regulation.
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 8:52:31 AM EDT
I just phoned my very ignorant "dealer" and demanded that he call the BATF himself to settle this matter about the legality of the transfer. He said he would call..... I told him that I had personally spoken with two other FFL holders here in New York State who had also accepted guns from the individual who sold me mine. Neither FFL had a problem with accepting guns from a private "seller" on behalf of a customer. "Well in over 20 years of doing business I never have" was his reply..... Hopefully he will get it straight from the BATF that he is wrong and return what is rightfully mine........
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 9:19:30 AM EDT
Keep us updated on what happens, please. And be sure to tell everyone you run into what an idiot the guy is. As well as post it on the various internet gun sites. Advertise for this fool. [}:D]
Link Posted: 9/6/2001 9:21:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2001 9:21:55 AM EDT by Princeton]
You're getting excellent information from everyone here. Just because your dealer has never received a firearm out of state from a non FFL holder before is no excuse for him not knowing the law. It's his business. Before giving you shit he should have called the BATF and checked. I know alot of dealers don't like to receive firearms from non FFL holders and refuse to do so even though they know it is legal. I generally make it a habit to ask before having a firearm sent to any dealer. Hope everything works out for you.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 6:54:47 AM EDT
I GOT IT BACK!!! My ignorant gun dealer had to eat his words today after calling the ATF himself and finding out that it was a legal transfer (no sh-t) He apoligized to me and I went & retrieved my gun immediately. Glad this is finally over! One thing is for sure though, I will NEVER, ever, set foot into his store again......... Many, many THANKS to all of you who gave me support & helpfull information. I believe I have made some new friends & look forward to learning more from you all........ Thanks Again....... Jack
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 7:10:15 AM EDT
Good job!! Remember to tell all your friends what an idiot he is. Stick around, you're welcome to hang with us. Though you may wonder what you got yourself into. [}:D]
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:02:43 AM EDT
Way to go, Foxy! You got what you deserve. Better late than never. I'd stay out of that guy's shop too. But maybe there's hope for him. Maybe he learned not to be so cock-sure of himself. Or not. There's no idiot like an old[er] idiot. Great way to end the week. Have a nice sighting-in session this weekend if you can.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 10:25:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 10:36:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 11:10:08 AM EDT
Now this is what this site is all about! People lending their expertise to help another! Makes you proud!!! [:)]
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 11:41:14 AM EDT
That's awesome. Hope you stick around!
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 2:28:51 PM EDT
Good Job. You stood tough and got the job done. If his fees were reasonable he might be ok to deal with again as he can see you ain't gonna put up with no stupid shit.
Link Posted: 9/7/2001 8:53:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2001 8:58:00 PM EDT by madman_kirk]
I'm sure glad I read to the end before i replied to this thread.steam was boiling out of my ears as i read what your FFL was doing to you. congrats on getting your rifle from that asswipe. you were a hell of lot nicer to him then I would have been. Steve what legal recourse would he have had if the FFL didn't release the rifle? mmk
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 1:58:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Foxy: I GOT IT BACK!!! My ignorant gun dealer had to eat his words today after calling the ATF himself and finding out that it was a legal transfer (no sh-t) He apoligized to me and I went & retrieved my gun immediately.
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Did he re-run the background check? Once you gave the gun back to him, he should have logged it back in. To log it back out of his books to you, would need another check! Why do I have a feeling he messed this up to! No matter what, Glad to see you got it back. mark
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 4:24:41 AM EDT
Steve what legal recourse would he have had if the FFL didn't release the rifle? mmk
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Civilly? A suit for larceny, trespass to chattels, conversion, loss of consortium (OK, the loss of consortium is a joke, sorta), etc. Criminally? Go to your local magistrate or PD and file charges of larceny (in most states, grand larceny due to the value of the property, and that's a felony) or criminal conversion or failure to return a bailed item. Maybe more. More important, however, and with quicker success, is the enlistment of not only ATF but the post office for mail fraud. The whole transaction was founded on an interstate transfer. Get those two agencies rolling and he would ass-pucker quick and see the light. Like I said, better to give him an out (which he did) before you unleash the feds. I hope he learned his lesson and becomes a good guy. You never know with assholes.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 4:39:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA:
Steve what legal recourse would he have had if the FFL didn't release the rifle? mmk
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Civilly? A suit for larceny, trespass to chattels, conversion, [b]loss of consortium[/b] (OK, the loss of consortium is a joke, sorta), etc.
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LOL. Nah. He was still getting screwed. He just wasn't getting kissed![:D]
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 6:04:30 AM EDT
I also forgot 'alienation of affection' and 'transactional rape', or, in latin, [i]rapis inanus gargantua[/i]
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 9:40:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2001 9:41:41 AM EDT by Righteous_Kill]
Most of you talk highly of covering one’s own ass. Have you bothered to see the other side of this story? Appears the FFL is scared of getting burned by the ATF. (Pun indented). First he forces the guy to get proof of status. Obviously to cover his own ass and not the buyer. After the fact, he finds out the sender isn’t an FFL. Which he felt was an illegal transfer. Knowing before hand he probably wouldn’t have done the transfer at all, that’s his right. The FFL looks to be a little paranoid about his line of business, and rightfully so given the ATF’s past dealings. Also the FFL doesn’t fully understand the legal aspects of the firearms business. Sounds like he needs to wise up or get out of the business. Broaden your horizons. RK
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 12:10:18 PM EDT
RK, thanx for the "other side of the story", that was very enlightening.[:E] There's a big difference between "covering your ass" and "being an ass". The former usually comes with a basic, and I do mean BASIC, understanding of the law, the latter arrogantly fumbles his way through life shrouded in a blanket of ignorance.
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 3:46:14 PM EDT
Your sarcasms needs work. Just merely pointing out the burden that FFLs deal with nowadays. A simple screw up could cost their investment and livelihood. Several dealers I know will not run the risk of excepting firearms from out of state non-ffl holders. They figure the risk/payoff isn’t worth it. How would like if every little screw up ran the risk of losing your law licence, or more importantly your means to make a living? If the Bar Association’s biggest priority was running you out of business, bet you’d be a little overly protective also. It happens to FFLs all the time. RK
Link Posted: 9/8/2001 5:59:17 PM EDT
I've got no problem with an FFL being overprotective; that's not what happened here. This guy was an arrogant dick who had the law WRONG and jerked a gunowner around because of it.
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