I have been waiting to pull this topic out of my....well anyhow poll incoming


I think we are evil.  And evil is what keeps us "good" because generally we are self serving, but since self serving and self preservation are a priority, and laziness is also an attribute, we tend not to make waves.

If doing something good makes you feel good, isn't it doing it for an evil purpose?


Anyhow, anyone familiar with high school will remember Hobbes and Locke, one debated man was inherently good, so needed limited government, the other said that man was evil and needed a strong government to control him.  They are both wrong I think.  I think man is inerently evil and thus not fit to govern others.

Poll incoming.

I think, in our current, fallen state, we are pre-disposed to rebel against God.  But we also have intrinsic moral value, which is good. So, my answer could very well be "both".

Some people are born good, others evil.  

The good ones can go to the other side.  The evil ones can't/won't change.  

Colt_SBR  

GREAT topic!

I was taught that we were born with original sin (self will) which meant we where flawed from birth and prone to sin.  This is because of Eve, a woman.  That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin.


That is a simplified version.  Basically our goal thru out life is to align our will with God's Will.  When we are able to achieve that good things happen as God takes care of all of our needs when we are close to Him ( but not our wants)


I can't wait to hear other people's opinions!

People are inherently good.

We have good and bad inside us, but in whole we are good.

I would say yes, because we do not need a sinful world to sin, look at the devil and the angels who followed. The only non sinner is the creator the absolute. Adam an Eve had proven this, they where given a perfect world but still sinned against god.

It is mans nature to sin, man is wicked. Is this not the point to find God and to live for God? For man can be with out his wicked ways?

Our spirits came from the presence of the Lord, and I believe them to be predominately good.  Some more valiant than others, but generally good.

Our body has carnal desires which are often manipulated by Satan for evil purposes.  
For example: to eat and drink is a natural and basic necessity.  However, gluttony and substance abuse (alcohol or other drugs) is a perversion that we may fall into.

Sexual relations within the bonds of marriage are honorable and appropriate.  However, these natural sexual appetites are often twisted so that man (and woman) commit fornications and adultry.


In summary, there is a conflict within each of us.  Our spirit is striving to master our carnal selves.  As the spirit gains mastery, we become better people.  As the carnal gains mastery, our spiritual welfare suffers.

We are born irrational selfish animals with a glimmer of the likeness of God (morality) and should try throughout our lives be a little more like the likeness of God.

I chose PIE. I think every person has the inate capability for good or evil great or small. I think much of it has to do with an individuals world view, culture and enviornment. Some people clearly gravitate to one extreme or the other though most of us are more in the middle.

Also remember Good and Evil are relative to a time place and culture. Many people feel firearms are inherently evil, they are from a different culture.

Quoted:

evil

______________________________________________________________

Not quite evil...more like not understanding.  I believe it's a question of nurture vs. nature.

If you've ever raised children, when was the last time you had to say "...hey, stop sharing your toys!".  It's typically the opposite.  Children, as they grow through adulthood, and adults too often times, need this reinforcement of what society commonly refers to as civility.

This has elements of our common heritage of faith communities/ethos.





Ed

Some people come with a predisposition toward bad, but most come with a predisposition towards good.

However, good people can be led astray - and temptation is Satan's greatest weapon.

Quess Im evil

Always?

if there wasnt punishment.... we would all be ungodly evil. shit i sure know i would be.

Tha answer I would choose is not listed. Falled is the term I agree with.

This is a Christian perspective and am not speaking for anyone else. So please dont flame me.

Evil has many interpretations. There are many many great and good people who are headed for the pit. We are all fallen creatures capable of great goodness and great evil.

Its not so much as we were born evil but we were born into bondage. We were servants to our natures, servants to our desires, and our desire was to rebel against God. Not necesarily be evil monsters but to seek our own Glory before God.

. I wrote this many years ao when I was a decent Christian and was reading many theological debates. I need to start again.

This is about all mankind. I and I cant post each quote as I cant type well, but if folks want, I encourage to read each reference I put up. Please do that.

This is the human condition.

 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which
you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the
prince of the power of air, the spirit who now works in the sons of
disobedience, among whom we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts
of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and
were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."  Ephesians 2:1-3



So we have faith in God. A trust in our loving Father. But what of the
others? Who is that? The wicked. Why is it that we have faith and they
do not? What made us different than them? Well apparently nothing. We
were just as the Scripture says, “just as the others”. We do not have a
flattering picture of ourselves before Christ came into our lives. We
even find ourselves fighting this truth.

What is this unflattering picture of ourselves in Scripture? Let it bow
us into the dust.

We were spiritually dead (Gen 2:16-17; Rom 5:12; Eph 2-13; Col 2:13.)
The bible tells us repeatedly that our hearts were utterly wicked and
that they were blind to spiritual things (Gen 6:5; 8:21; Eccl 9:3; Jer
17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Rom 8:7-8; 1Cor 2:14; Eph 4:17-19; 5:8;
Titus 1:15).

 It only gets more  unflattering.  We are also told in Scripture that
we were slaves to sin, and children of the devil (John 8:34,44; Rom
6:20; Eph 2:1-2; 2Tim 2:25-26; Titus 3:3; 1John 3:10; 5:19)

 “But surely I was not as they, If I were, I would be deserving
destruction just as they” Well the picture continues to grow more dim.
No one is excluded from this assessment (1Kings 8:46; 2Chron 6:36; Job
15:14-16; Pss 130:3; 143:2; Prov 20:9; Eccl 7:20,29; Isa 53:5; 64:6;
Rom 3:9-12, 23; James 3:2,8; 1John 1:8,10)  - pleas read them

 “So how is it that I have faith and they do not?”  We were as Holy
Scripture says “just as the others”. What kind of trust do the above
mentioned people have? How does one who’s heart is at enmity at God
trust in Him?  Faith is of ourselves? Scripture sure does not paint a
picture of any sliver of faith “trust” toward God in sinful man.

 So then, why am I saved and others are not? How could have I made a
faithful decision to trust in Jesus when it is obvious that no trust
ever existed in me? Could scripture be wrong? Is it about somebody
else? NO it says we were “just as the others”.

Is it
For by grace you have been saved because of faith, that is of
yourselves: it is your gift to God.

   or

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of
yourselves; it is the gift of God.”

 All here would be on the same ground condemning the first quote. And
rightly so, for Scripture teaches no such thing.

Scripture teaches us the we had no faith toward God. “just as the
others”. So where does faith come from? Thanks be to God for giving His
children the tools and ability to come to Him. CAst off that crown and give God ALL the glory in your salvation he did not look down and see if you would chose Him and base His decision upon that. ref Psalm 53:2-3 and Psalm 14:2-3

And let loose the bible quotes.  We are EVIL.  Some are more Evil then Others.  The only thing that keeps any of us in check is morality which is based on biblical studies.  You dont go out and kill so and so because there are consequences to that action.  If there were no consequences itd be mayhem.  

Quoted: And let loose the bible quotes.  We are EVIL.......

MrMurphy is correct!  Sin is Evil.  All men sin (no exception)!   God is without sin (no exception), therefore, God is perfect.  Anything other than perfection is equal to sin, therefore we are all evil.

Man is evil -- Romans 3:23
..for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..

Sin has corrupted this world completely.  There is no good in man or in this world except for God who is perfect -- Psalm 16:2
I said to the LORD, "You are my Lord; apart from you I have no good thing."

Quoted: IMO - we are neither inherently good nor inherently evil. It was noted above that is man is inherently bad, he is not fit to govern others.  It was once pointed out to me "If man is inherently bad, he is not fit nor capable of governing himself, so outside forces have to do it for him." I didn't think then nor do I think now that I have so little self control/morals that I deserve to be treated like I'm going to snap and kill somebody, if there's a gun available.  Nor will I steal somebody else's unsecured money if it is just lying there. Treating me like I'm a criminal who hasn't committed a crime yet robs me of my free will, and then it robs me of any real responsibility for my actions.  If you treat me like a criminal, I'm more likely to just say "screw it!" and commit a crime, because there is no expectation that I'm to remain law abiding and respecful, and the punishment for any crime will be diminished. You are what you choose to be.

Awesome post, DF

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: IMO - we are neither inherently good nor inherently evil. It was noted above that is man is inherently bad, he is not fit to govern others.  It was once pointed out to me "If man is inherently bad, he is not fit nor capable of governing himself, so outside forces have to do it for him." I didn't think then nor do I think now that I have so little self control/morals that I deserve to be treated like I'm going to snap and kill somebody, if there's a gun available.  Nor will I steal somebody else's unsecured money if it is just lying there. Treating me like I'm a criminal who hasn't committed a crime yet robs me of my free will, and then it robs me of any real responsibility for my actions.  If you treat me like a criminal, I'm more likely to just say "screw it!" and commit a crime, because there is no expectation that I'm to remain law abiding and respecful, and the punishment for any crime will be diminished. You are what you choose to be. Awesome post, DF You just bit the forbidden apple, and you want more.  I'm running out of apples!

Appless...mmmmmm...see? Now if Eve hadn't been starving from the God-induced Atkins diet, we'd all be naked and oblivious....





Instead of just oblivious

Quoted: GREAT topic! I was taught that we were born with original sin (self will) which meant we where flawed from birth and prone to sin.  This is because of Eve, a woman.  That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin.

Oh I been waiting for this one too!!!    You go on and on about abortion, yet you believe that an infant
that dies without being baptized has no protection through Christ and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Baptism or no, until a child is old enough to make a moral decision on it's own, that child
is protected.  Baptism is not needed for an infant to enter Heaven.

Ask me again why I Protest your church.

We are all made in God's image. And born with free will.
We all have the ability to be good or evil due to that free will.

We CHOOSE either. We are neither inherantly evil nor inherantly good.

If doing something good makes you feel good, isn't it doing it for an evil purpose?

Intentions. No one can gage your intention except your self and God.
If you do it to help and the side benefit is feeling good about yourself, then this produces self esteem and love which makes you want to help more, thus giving to God's family and sharing in His love. That is not evil. That is God working in Your life as well as others.
Wherever God is, there can not be evil. Only choice to choose between Him and evil.

If you choose to help just to make your self look good or feel good, wrong intention. It then becomes evil.

Quoted: Quoted: GREAT topic! I was taught that we were born with original sin (self will) which meant we where flawed from birth and prone to sin.  This is because of Eve, a woman.  That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin. Oh I been waiting for this one too!!!    You go on and on about abortion, yet you believe that an infant that dies without being baptized has no protection through Christ and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Baptism or no, until a child is old enough to make a moral decision on it's own, that child is protected.  Baptism is not needed for an infant to enter Heaven. Ask me again why I Protest your church.

Last I heard the Catholics abandoned the Limbo theory....and I think they also pardoned Galileo or something...
So all is good!



I'll be over there---------------->

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: GREAT topic! I was taught that we were born with original sin (self will) which meant we where flawed from birth and prone to sin.  This is because of Eve, a woman.  That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin. Oh I been waiting for this one too!!!    You go on and on about abortion, yet you believe that an infant that dies without being baptized has no protection through Christ and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Baptism or no, until a child is old enough to make a moral decision on it's own, that child is protected.  Baptism is not needed for an infant to enter Heaven. Ask me again why I Protest your church. Last I heard the Catholics abandoned the Limbo theory....and I think they also pardoned Galileo or something... So all is good! I'll be over there---------------->

You are correct. And we never believed murdered people who never had the chance to be baptized went to limbo or hell.
I'll sit with you!

Quoted: You just bit the forbidden apple, and you want more.  I'm running out of apples!

Which is why you are wrong .

Since all people are born with original sin then we are born evil.

Now ofcourse we can be good, but taht first requires baptism to bring us into Christ.

Sgat1r5

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: GREAT topic! I was taught that we were born with original sin (self will) which meant we where flawed from birth and prone to sin.  This is because of Eve, a woman.  That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin. Oh I been waiting for this one too!!!    You go on and on about abortion, yet you believe that an infant that dies without being baptized has no protection through Christ and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Baptism or no, until a child is old enough to make a moral decision on it's own, that child is protected.  Baptism is not needed for an infant to enter Heaven. Ask me again why I Protest your church. Last I heard the Catholics abandoned the Limbo theory....and I think they also pardoned Galileo or something... So all is good! I'll be over there----------------> You are correct. And we never believed murdered people who never had the chance to be baptized went to limbo or hell. I'll sit with you!

Well you might want to remind your brethren of that fact.  That doctrine of original sin and needing
protection from it is still regularly tossed around.

That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin.

Quoted: Quoted: GREAT topic! I was taught that we were born with original sin (self will) which meant we where flawed from birth and prone to sin.  This is because of Eve, a woman.  That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin. Oh I been waiting for this one too!!!    You go on and on about abortion, yet you believe that an infant that dies without being baptized has no protection through Christ and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Baptism or no, until a child is old enough to make a moral decision on it's own, that child is protected.  Baptism is not needed for an infant to enter Heaven. Ask me again why I Protest your church.

I have no idea why you do.

But not once did I say they can not enter the kingdom of Heaven when aborted.  They were never even given the chance at baptism.  God doesn't fault the child for that but rather the parent.

You are very sadly mistaken about many things concerning the Catholic Chrurch.

Sgat1r5

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: GREAT topic! I was taught that we were born with original sin (self will) which meant we where flawed from birth and prone to sin.  This is because of Eve, a woman.  That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin. Oh I been waiting for this one too!!!    You go on and on about abortion, yet you believe that an infant that dies without being baptized has no protection through Christ and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Baptism or no, until a child is old enough to make a moral decision on it's own, that child is protected.  Baptism is not needed for an infant to enter Heaven. Ask me again why I Protest your church. Last I heard the Catholics abandoned the Limbo theory....and I think they also pardoned Galileo or something... So all is good! I'll be over there----------------> You are correct. And we never believed murdered people who never had the chance to be baptized went to limbo or hell. I'll sit with you! Well you might want to remind your brethren of that fact.  That doctrine of original sin and needing protection from it is still regularly tossed around. That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin.

I don't need to remind anyone.
the point you may be missing is while we believe in orginal sin and everyone is born with it, we also believe that those murdered who never got the chance to say "I am sorry" by coming into Christ's family thru baptism, will not be forsaken in hell. God understands that they never had the chance and will not punish them for something they didn't have anything to do with.

EDIT- Sorry for the interuption Sarge, you already explained.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: GREAT topic! I was taught that we were born with original sin (self will) which meant we where flawed from birth and prone to sin.  This is because of Eve, a woman.  That is why it is important for a child to get Baptized as soon as possible so they do not die with out the protection of Jesus against original sin. Oh I been waiting for this one too!!!    You go on and on about abortion, yet you believe that an infant that dies without being baptized has no protection through Christ and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Baptism or no, until a child is old enough to make a moral decision on it's own, that child is protected.  Baptism is not needed for an infant to enter Heaven. Ask me again why I Protest your church. I have no idea why you do. But not once did I say they can not enter the kingdom of Heaven when aborted.  They were never even given the chance at baptism.  God doesn't fault the child for that but rather the parent. You are very sadly mistaken about many things concerning the Catholic Chrurch. Sgat1r5

Straight from your Church's doctrine:

The doctrine of the Church supposes no sensible or afflictive punishment in the next world for children who die with nothing but original sin on their souls, but only the privation of the sight of God

Sounds like you're still making a differentiation to me.  You play word games and political spin, but
the original beliefs have not changed.

Your Church calls it "Beatific Vision" and describes it thusly:

The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called "vision" to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed "beatific". For further explanation of the subject, see HEAVEN.

Now, since children that die before baptism are denied the Sight of God, please dig yourself out
of this one and stop trying to play word games.

It is indeed as it always was, that your Church teaches those that die without Baptism are punished
in some manner, and that has not changed.

Got a link?
And what is the real issue here?

You make it sound like Catholic purpossefully want kids in Hell, that is not the case.

An aborted baby never gets borne!  It never has the chance to get baptized.  God ain't gonna punish that child.  ANd if you really want me to disect whatever group you belong to I am sure I can find contradictions also.  But I am telling you, aborted babies are innocent because they never havd the chance to sin.  Hence they go to Heaven.

Ever priest I have ever talked to affirmed this and I am POSITIVE they know doctrine alot better than you and I.

Sgat1r5

I t hink we're good, people want to say we're inherently evil so they can slap religion on us and "save" us.

Quoted: Can you tell me where my "original sin" comes from?

The Devil originally.  

Sgatr15

Quoted: Got a link? And what is the real issue here? You make it sound like Catholic purpossefully want kids in Hell, that is not the case. An aborted baby never gets borne!  It never has the chance to get baptized.  God ain't gonna punish that child.  ANd if you really want me to disect whatever group you belong to I am sure I can find contradictions also.  But I am telling you, aborted babies are innocent because they never havd the chance to sin.  Hence they go to Heaven. Ever priest I have ever talked to affirmed this and I am POSITIVE they know doctrine alot better than you and I. Sgat1r5

Not only talking about aborted babies here.  My point was that you want to protect aborted babies,
but you would have children born and then die before baptism and be denied entrance to Heaven.

That is your Church's doctrine.  I've read it in a zillion places.

Here is one I pasted the text from just because it was handy.

Definition of Original Sin

In there is where it is stated that unbaptized children are denied the Sight of God, which
you call Beatific Vision.

Beatific Vision

And, here is the discussion of Heaven, Purgatory, and Limbo, which appear to still be
very much doctrine.

Heaven

I'm here to compete with the alpha male population to secure the advancement of my genes by impregnating an alpha female, then protecting that investment until I croak.

My past actions in getting from point A to B dictated the perception of my personality.  Depends on the environment, I say.  Now that my mission is complete (in my mind)....

I'm inherently good, unless I'm bored.  Then most definately evil.  I'm also evil on Tuesdays, Thursday mornings, and quasi-evil on Monday nights.  Unfortunately, for most everyone, I'm a uber-evil on Friday afternoon when driving alongside vacationing Massholes heading northbound on I95.  I swear they leave their common sense at the York Tollbooth.

H

"Good, bad......I'm the one with the gun."


I don't know about good or evil, but some folks are absolutely positively born stupid.

Quoted: "Good, bad......I'm the one with the gun." I don't know about good or evil, but some folks are absolutely positively born stupid.

The force of Darwin is strong with you....

Quoted: Not only talking about aborted babies here. My point was that you want to protect aborted babies, but you would have children born and then die before baptism and be denied entrance to Heaven. That is your Church's doctrine.  I've read it in a zillion places. Here is one I pasted the text from just because it was handy. Definition of Original Sin

Say what?


Yes I want to save a baies life!  But how do you get the idea I wouldn't want it baptisted?

In there is where it is stated that unbaptized children are denied the Sight of God, which you call Beatific Vision. Beatific Vision

Yes, if I understand that correctly it is saying that when a child is denied the chance of being with Christ they may have "Beautific Vision." but still goes to Heaven.  The parent gets blamed not the kid.

And, here is the discussion of Heaven, Purgatory, and Limbo, which appear to still be very much doctrine. Heaven

Apperancesd are funny.  Try talking toi a priest and asking him for offical doctrine and not just what you find on the net.  Not says that site isn't Catholic related, but I prefer a person to a web site for accurate info.

SGat1r5

First off, you misundersood what I said.  What I said was that your Church would ahve unbaptized children be denied Beatifc Vision, or full entrance to Heaven.  I disagree with that.  You would WANT them Baptized, but if they were not THEY must suffer eternal punishment for it.  I find that repulsive.

Quoted: Apperancesd are funny.  Try talking toi a priest and asking him for offical doctrine and not just what you find on the net.  Not says that site isn't Catholic related, but I prefer a person to a web site for accurate info. SGat1r5

Hard to say, and that is one of the things I disagree with about the Roman Catholic faith.
You have made up so many man made rules and regulations over the years
that no one can keep up with them all.  The Mythology of Heaven alone fills
entire books, and hardly any of it has Biblical backing.

Your Church's published doctrine however says plainly that unbaptized babies do not
get to see the full vision of Heaven, that even if it is their parents fault, they are
never allowed full entrance to Heaven.

I find that disturbing.  Your Church has been so busy making rules and regulations
that it's almost impossible not to run afoul of one now and then.  This is
an example.  It may not have been the intention to keep babies out of Heaven
but that is exactly what your doctrine requires.

Anyway, this is why I have issues with the Roman Catholic Church.  Even it's members,
and probably some of its priests, are unclear EXACTLY what the Church's teachings are.

Anyway, as a Protestant I believe that Christ died for our sins and babies not old
enough to come to faith on their own are still covered by his Grace and admitted
into Heaven whether Baptised or not.

And as for the thread, I agree that we are all born Evil, but can be protected and
forgiven through Christs shed blood.

At least on that we agree against the REAL enemy of us both, the non Christian.
The differences between Roman Catholics and Protestant are, for the most part,
just paperwork.

Inherently evil with tendency to do good.

We catholics have not 'made up' rules.
This link may help.
link

www.ourcatholicfaith.org/whycatholic/churchdoctrine.html

they are never allowed full entrance to Heaven.

Wrong. We believe in the resurrection of the dead.
At this time, all will see the face of God, save for the those who burn in hell. Which do not include murdered people.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

The Mythology of Heaven alone fills entire books, and hardly any of it has Biblical backing.

wrong again.
www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm#III

The differences between Roman Catholics and Protestant are, for the most part, just paperwork.

If you truly believe that, you don't know either faith very well. My parents are converted catholics from protestantism many years ago. There are vast differences. Take a look at the newadvent.org site above and you will see every part of the catholic church defined. Just click on the alphabetical links on the top of the page...If you truly want to know the differences.

Quoted: Hard to say, and that is one of the things I disagree with about the Roman Catholic faith. You have made up so many man made rules and regulations over the years that no one can keep up with them all.  The Mythology of Heaven alone fills entire books, and hardly any of it has Biblical backing.

You are confusing offical Church doctrine with members and churches thoughts on the subjects.

And God didn't stop talking to us after Jesus left, that is why there is Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition which is  supported by the Bible and scripture.


ANd ALL churches have rules so don't pretend they don't.

SGatr15

Quoted: The differences between Roman Catholics and Protestant are, for the most part, just paperwork.

And 5 more Holy Sacraments plus we have a DIRECT historical link to Jesus Christ Himself.  One of those Sacraments is the Sacrament of Marriage, which Protestants do not have and thus makes divorce easier and was a majopr attrackion of the off shoot churches of the 16th Century.( Ref: ANglican Church)

You are an off shoot of the Catholic Chruch, still welcome when you are ready to advance to the next level.

SGatr15

Scripture is quite clear on this.

My opinioon of the matter is irrelevant.

Quoted: I'm here to compete with the alpha male population to secure the advancement of my genes by impregnating an alpha female, then protecting that investment until I croak.

that deserves a "Fuggin' A"

Quoted: We catholics have not 'made up' rules. ever allowed full entrance to Heaven. Wrong. We believe in the resurrection of the dead. At this time, all will see the face of God, save for the those who burn in hell. Which do not include murdered people.

That is simply not what your Church doctrine says.  It says clearly that non baptized infants
will be deprived of Beatific Vision.  In your doctrine Beatific Vision is one of the
rewards of Heaven.  Your doctrine states clearly the following concerning unbaptized
children:

The doctrine of the Church supposes no sensible or afflictive punishment in the next world for children who die with nothing but original sin on their souls, but only the privation of the sight of God

These unbaptized children ARE LESSER BEINGS in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church,
by your own doctrines definitions.  They are not punished, they die with nothing but Original Sin
on their souls, but they are denied this idea of Beatific Vision because they simply did not
live long enough to be baptized, or had parents that did not baptize them.


You can spin this any way you want, and you all have, but it is clearly written in your doctrine
and you simply refuse to admit that.  You want to tell me "well, talking to a priest is different
than reading the doctrines of the Church, it's more important".  Why write it down then?

You tell me The Limbo business is abandoned by the Church, but it is still in the printed and
published doctrine of the Roman Church.   It is called Limbus Infantium, or
Children's Limbo.  Again I quote from your Church Doctrine:

The New Testament contains no definite statement of a positive kind regarding the lot of those who die in original sin without being burdened with grievous personal guilt. But, by insisting on the absolute necessity of being "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" (John 3:5) for entry into the kingdom of Heaven (see "Baptism," subtitle Necessity of Baptism), Christ clearly enough implies that men are born into this world in a state of sin, and St. Paul's teaching to the same effect is quite explicit (Rom. 5:12 sqq). On the other hand, it is clear form Scripture and Catholic tradition that the means of regeneration provided for this life do not remain available after death, so that those dying unregenerate are eternally excluded from the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision (John 9:4, Luke 12:40, 16:19 sqq, II Cor. 5:10; see also "Apocatastasis"). The question therefore arises as to what, in the absence of a clear positive revelation on the subject, we ought in conformity with Catholic principles to believe regarding the eternal lot of such persons. Now it may confidently be said that, as the result of centuries of speculation on the subject, we ought to believe that these souls enjoy and will eternally enjoy a state of perfect natural happiness; and this is what Catholics usually mean when they speak of the limbus infantium, the "children's limbo."

Sounds like a nice place, but IT AIN'T HEAVEN.

I'm sorry.  This endless argument is pointless.  Your own doctrine clearly states all these things,
your Church has put them in writing.  Yet when confronted with them you tell me it doesn't count,
or it is not what it sounds like, or maybe a priest can explain it away.

I won't argue this anymore with you, but I suggest you take your own advice and read your
Church's doctrine.  You might find it interesting yourselves. They may not teach it on Sunday
at Church, but your Church believes it.