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Posted: 1/2/2016 1:34:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2016 1:48:52 AM EDT by SouthernScholar]
I'm talking about portable energy based weapons, like a handheld rail coil gun or laser rifle. Yes, those don't really exist, at least in complete, functional form (there are prototypes). But eventually they will. How would they be regulated? Would California only allow you to set phasers to stun?

It seems like something we might want to get a head start on right now. You know that the anti-gunners will try like hell to immediately ban them as soon as they are presented in a workable form. The second amendment never says firearms, only "arms." Why should we assume that it only covers a design that is hundreds of years old?
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:36:28 AM EDT
....keep and bear arms

So assuming they are an man portable. Reasonable regulations may apply
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:37:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2016 1:38:37 AM EDT by pyrobolo]
Under the original interpretation of the 2A, they would be covered.

Today? nope.

ETA: I think there is already something in federal law that restricts this.  I'm sure someone else knows more.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:38:58 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By pyrobolo:
Under the original interpretation of the 2A, they would be covered.

Today? nope.
View Quote


Which is why we need to get ahead of the game and start pushing for coverage.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:43:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
I'm talking about portable energy based weapons, like a handheld rail gun or laser rifle.
View Quote

Rail guns are not energy based.  They use magnetism rather than expanding gas but they are still throwing a solid projectile.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:45:35 AM EDT
You need a Form 4 for anything over 40 Watts.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:46:04 AM EDT
Damn right they are.....or will be, as is the case.

In a future life, I WILL be toting a powergun.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:47:07 AM EDT
Civilian 2a rights die with conventional arms and ammunition. You will never, ever shoot something in the 40 watt range on your families back acreage. Something "unusual" remember?
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:47:58 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:


Which is why we need to get ahead of the game and start pushing for coverage.
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Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
Originally Posted By pyrobolo:
Under the original interpretation of the 2A, they would be covered.

Today? nope.


Which is why we need to get ahead of the game and start pushing for coverage.


Well, considering we've already got hand held lasers at wattages easily capable of burning through everyday items, I'd say we've already got a good start on them.  What we need now is to just make the technology too available for it to be restricted.

See?  
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:48:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2016 1:48:20 AM EDT by SouthernScholar]
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Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Rail guns are not energy based.  They use magnetism rather than expanding gas but they are still throwing a solid projectile.
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Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
I'm talking about portable energy based weapons, like a handheld rail gun or laser rifle.

Rail guns are not energy based.  They use magnetism rather than expanding gas but they are still throwing a solid projectile.


Oops. I got rail gun and coil gun confused, lol.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:52:13 AM EDT
Any weapon that would be a small arm or long arm is covered.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:52:49 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By BH11B:
Civilian 2a rights die with conventional arms and ammunition. You will never, ever shoot something in the 40 watt range on your families back acreage. Something "unusual" remember?
View Quote

Appears nowhere in the 2A.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:53:08 AM EDT
FCC regulates lasers.  I have a feeling we'll eventually end up at the point where we can dismantle household electronics and build them into clocks laser weapons
 
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:55:20 AM EDT
No way, based on the current fight we are fighting.


Tilt your monitor to the left and take a good look.

Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:55:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2016 1:56:42 AM EDT by SouthernScholar]
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Originally Posted By BH11B:
Civilian 2a rights die with conventional arms and ammunition. You will never, ever shoot something in the 40 watt range on your families back acreage. Something "unusual" remember?
View Quote


But what happens when the military and police switch over? It wouldn't be so unusual when it's standardized. Plus, going from a blackpowder musket to the AR-15 was a pretty big technological advance. It didn't happen overnight, but still. Firearms tech has become so much more advanced, yet the 2A still applies. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that eventually the NRA will be defending the right to own a laser rifle. Sounds crazy... but I bet the idea of owning an AR would've seemed insane back in the 19th century.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:04:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By pyrobolo:
Under the original interpretation of the 2A, they would be covered.

Today? nope.

ETA: I think there is already something in federal law that restricts this.  I'm sure someone else knows more.
View Quote


The DoD, FDA, FCC, and even the DOE have purview over a lot of them.  For example:
The most popular directed energy device is probably going to be a laser and that falls into the purview of the FDA.
The next most popular would be a directed electromagnetic device, and that would be regulated by the FCC.

While most of them aren't written as laws, they do limit control (in a very real way) over who may or may not make, own, or operate capable devices.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:05:18 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By copperhead035:
FCC regulates lasers.  I have a feeling we'll eventually end up at the point where we can dismantle household electronics and build them into clocks laser weapons  
View Quote


The FDA regulates lasers.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:05:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
I'm talking about portable energy based weapons, like a handheld rail coil gun or laser rifle. Yes, those don't really exist, at least in complete, functional form (there are prototypes). But eventually they will. How would they be regulated? Would California only allow you to set phasers to stun?

It seems like something we might want to get a head start on right now. You know that the anti-gunners will try like hell to immediately ban them as soon as they are presented in a workable form. The second amendment never says firearms, only "arms." Why should we assume that it only covers a design that is hundreds of years old?
View Quote


Arms are arms.  It is a vast category that can include any sort of weapon or armour, plus implements necessary for their carriage and operation, as well as any ammunition necessary to use them.  It can include something as primitive as a stone club up to a 16" naval gun with laser-guided ER projectiles.  Energy weapons are just a different type of arm.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:06:38 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ridgeline:
Any weapon that would be a small arm or long arm is covered.
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The 2nd Amendment doesn't say "the right to keep and bear small arms."  It uses the much broader and all-inclusive term, "arms."  Long guns are a type of small arm.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:08:18 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By tweeter:
The FDA regulates lasers.
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Originally Posted By tweeter:



Originally Posted By copperhead035:

FCC regulates lasers.  I have a feeling we'll eventually end up at the point where we can dismantle household electronics and build them into clocks laser weapons  




The FDA regulates lasers.




 
I was close.




Does this mean there will need to be millions of dollars worth of trials spanning a decade before they can get approved?
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:12:29 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By tweeter:


The DoD, FDA, FCC, and even the DOE have purview over a lot of them.  For example:
The most popular directed energy device is probably going to be a laser and that falls into the purview of the FDA.
The next most popular would be a directed electromagnetic device, and that would be regulated by the FCC.

While most of them aren't written as laws, they do limit control (in a very real way) over who may or may not make, own, or operate capable devices.
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Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By pyrobolo:
Under the original interpretation of the 2A, they would be covered.

Today? nope.

ETA: I think there is already something in federal law that restricts this.  I'm sure someone else knows more.


The DoD, FDA, FCC, and even the DOE have purview over a lot of them.  For example:
The most popular directed energy device is probably going to be a laser and that falls into the purview of the FDA.
The next most popular would be a directed electromagnetic device, and that would be regulated by the FCC.

While most of them aren't written as laws, they do limit control (in a very real way) over who may or may not make, own, or operate capable devices.



Manufacturers aren't allowed to sell us lowly peons certain complete lasers, but you can still buy the components and build functionally same or similar things yourself.

I went ahead and bought a bunch of different power IR modules in case I ever wanted to get into night vision.  Still sitting in a box, though I did test one out and, sure enough, they make a dot you can only see through a night vision device.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:17:50 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Rail guns are not energy based.  They use magnetism rather than expanding gas but they are still throwing a solid projectile.
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Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
I'm talking about portable energy based weapons, like a handheld rail gun or laser rifle.

Rail guns are not energy based.  They use magnetism rather than expanding gas but they are still throwing a solid projectile.
Rail guns rely on electrical current to create the magnetic fields, so they are energy based.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:21:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By garwj:
....keep and bear arms

So assuming they are an man portable. Reasonable regulations may apply
View Quote



FPNI.

"ARMS" is a pretty broad term.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:23:08 AM EDT
Yes, they are.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:27:32 AM EDT
A technician class license allows transmission of 1500 watts, continuous.
proper focus above 5 giga hertz, a killowatt will surely clear a path
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:33:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Fullpower:
A technician class license allows transmission of 1500 watts, continuous.proper focus above 5 giga hertz, a killowatt will surely clear a path
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I'm not quite sure what that means.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:37:23 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 1Andy2:



Manufacturers aren't allowed to sell us lowly peons certain complete lasers, but you can still buy the components and build functionally same or similar things yourself.

I went ahead and bought a bunch of different power IR modules in case I ever wanted to get into night vision.  Still sitting in a box, though I did test one out and, sure enough, they make a dot you can only see through a night vision device.
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Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By pyrobolo:
Under the original interpretation of the 2A, they would be covered.

Today? nope.

ETA: I think there is already something in federal law that restricts this.  I'm sure someone else knows more.


The DoD, FDA, FCC, and even the DOE have purview over a lot of them.  For example:
The most popular directed energy device is probably going to be a laser and that falls into the purview of the FDA.
The next most popular would be a directed electromagnetic device, and that would be regulated by the FCC.

While most of them aren't written as laws, they do limit control (in a very real way) over who may or may not make, own, or operate capable devices.



Manufacturers aren't allowed to sell us lowly peons certain complete lasers, but you can still buy the components and build functionally same or similar things yourself.

I went ahead and bought a bunch of different power IR modules in case I ever wanted to get into night vision.  Still sitting in a box, though I did test one out and, sure enough, they make a dot you can only see through a night vision device.


Technically, no.  You aren't allowed to assemble and operate specific types of lasers without jumping through a lot of hoops, but realistically... yeah, you can.
There's no way the FDA can regulate raw parts due to the varied use of those parts.  The most influential aspect of the FDA to not pursue raw parts regulation: laypersons typically do not posses the knowledge or construction capability to produce such devices in an impactful manner.  It's the rough equivalent of the ATF going out of its way to find and prosecute a teenager that made a zip-gun... especially when he only uses it to shoot pop cans.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:44:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:


I'm not quite sure what that means.
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Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
Originally Posted By Fullpower:
A technician class license allows transmission of 1500 watts, continuous.proper focus above 5 giga hertz, a killowatt will surely clear a path


I'm not quite sure what that means.


They're referring to an FCC-issued Technician Class HAM operator license, which is typically used for communication.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:54:02 AM EDT
If you can carry the damn thing  and our military uses it....  than  the 2nd covers it........   our founding fathers were trying to protect us from a police state
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 3:11:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By tweeter:


They're referring to an FCC-issued Technician Class HAM operator license, which is typically used for communication.
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Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
Originally Posted By Fullpower:
A technician class license allows transmission of 1500 watts, continuous.proper focus above 5 giga hertz, a killowatt will surely clear a path


I'm not quite sure what that means.


They're referring to an FCC-issued Technician Class HAM operator license, which is typically used for communication.


Thanks for the clarification.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 4:05:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:


Thanks for the clarification.
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Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
Originally Posted By Fullpower:
A technician class license allows transmission of 1500 watts, continuous.proper focus above 5 giga hertz, a killowatt will surely clear a path


I'm not quite sure what that means.


They're referring to an FCC-issued Technician Class HAM operator license, which is typically used for communication.


Thanks for the clarification.


No problem.  Most communications equipment can't really hurt someone, improperly-used it might damage some sensitive equipment, but it won't really hurt anyone.  If you want to know more about directed microwave energy, ask someone that knows a lot about radar.
They'll tell you... very little, because the good stuff is pretty classified.  You'd have to learn about radar.

For example, do a search on the Israeli Green Pine or Super Green Pine radar, or even a SPY-3 radar.  

For damage, radar is where it's at.  Modern military radars can direct very thin beams of high powered energy some very long distances.  
While most commercial weather radar has potential for harm if you're exposed at close distances (for a really long time)... military radar has a very real potential for screwing with you.  Like making you sterile or giving you severe headaches or worse.  Hell, a SPY-3 radar can permanently damage aircraft instruments if it hits an aircraft hard enough.

But these are very sensitive (secret) arrays that are prohibitively expensive, like... owned by nation-states.

If you want to look into something smaller, Raytheon is making a smaller "Active Denial System" that has been tested and sold (issued) to domestic law-enforcement entities (not just the military) like the FBI and the LA County Sheriff's Dept.  While not strictly a radar system, they are millimeter-wave energy and quite capable of inflicting severe damage, but they have built-in safeties that prevent this as they are most useful as a non-lethal device.

I don't know if you're doing a report or paper or something, or if you were simply just interested.  If you want to know more on the subject do a search on laser or electromagnetic weapons or even non-lethal weapons programs.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 4:08:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2016 4:09:26 AM EDT by TexasRifleman1985]
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Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:


Which is why we need to get ahead of the game and start pushing for coverage.
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Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
Originally Posted By pyrobolo:
Under the original interpretation of the 2A, they would be covered.

Today? nope.


Which is why we need to get ahead of the game and start pushing for coverage.

They already got ahead of this game and banned them all.

The FDA says powerful lasers are illegal.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 4:39:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 4:55:31 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Numenor:


Well, considering we've already got hand held lasers at wattages easily capable of burning through everyday items, I'd say we've already got a good start on them.  What we need now is to just make the technology too available for it to be restricted.

See?  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53GJJHwQ8BA
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Originally Posted By Numenor:
Originally Posted By SouthernScholar:
Originally Posted By pyrobolo:
Under the original interpretation of the 2A, they would be covered.

Today? nope.


Which is why we need to get ahead of the game and start pushing for coverage.


Well, considering we've already got hand held lasers at wattages easily capable of burning through everyday items, I'd say we've already got a good start on them.  What we need now is to just make the technology too available for it to be restricted.

See?  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53GJJHwQ8BA



"Whoahaha"
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 4:56:05 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ReconB4:
Why people are even entertaining this...
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Directed energy small arms are a distinct possibility of the future. Advancements in battery technology and energy storage are at the front of technological study because their application is so huge. It is not at all unreasonable to expect that the NRA will be defending semiautomatic recoilless rail guns or high capacity electomagnetic radiation rifles.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 5:17:40 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mariner82:

Appears nowhere in the 2A.
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Originally Posted By Mariner82:
Originally Posted By BH11B:
Civilian 2a rights die with conventional arms and ammunition. You will never, ever shoot something in the 40 watt range on your families back acreage. Something "unusual" remember?

Appears nowhere in the 2A.


Link Posted: 1/2/2016 5:18:27 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By garwj:


....keep and bear arms



So assuming they are an man portable. Reasonable regulations may apply
View Quote




cant tell if this comment is trolling or just stupid...

 
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 5:55:58 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Fullpower:
A technician class license allows transmission of 1500 watts, continuous.proper focus above 5 giga hertz, a killowatt will surely clear a path
View Quote



Think you could argue that your device was not a LASER but actually a terahertz radio transmitter?
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 5:58:55 AM EDT
In our current country, there are states that ban semi-automatic rifles because the resemble select-fire "weapons of war." I think the Founding Fathers would not be happy with our current laws & would include any "arms" under 2A.

But our gov & BATFE have said an item is legal, then changed their minds--the flame thrower is likely next to be banned once some jackass uses one to kill/hurt people.
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