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Posted: 7/3/2018 9:45:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2018 11:52:58 AM EDT by new_frontier13]
My department is looking to upgrade our patrol rifles and I have been asked to chair the committee. The department is looking to purchase a rifle for each patrol vehicle and 1 for each admin / detective. 45 total rifles. We would like to add optics at a later date, but right now it is not an option. I personally believe the fixed front sight base and two piece hand guards are the best choice since we can run lower 1/3 co-witness on future optics and keep the overall cost of the rifles down. Going to a free float rail and the subsequent cost of fixed sights will cost approximately $250 more per unit from a reputable company (site sponsor).

I'm not sure accuracy will be a huge improvement at our average engagement distances either.

If it was your choice, and keeping in mind that the extra money will come out of your patrol budget (ammo, slings, optics), which would you choose?

1. Fixed front sight base w/ magpul moe furniture

2. Fixed sights on free float rail

3. Mbus on free float rail
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 10:25:51 AM EDT
Lowprofile system for the simple reason of snagging on gear. I have and love my FSP, but it does catch and snag on stuff occasionally. Getting in and out of a car I'd rather not deal with it.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 10:50:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By StraightMiataMan:
Lowprofile system for the simple reason of snagging on gear. I have and love my FSP, but it does catch and snag on stuff occasionally. Getting in and out of a car I'd rather not deal with it.
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Interesting, I wouldn't have thought the front sight base would be a big snag magnet being nearer the muzzle. We T&E'd an oversized charging handle and that SOB got caught on everything in the car. It also snagged mag flaps and TQ's when slung.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 11:12:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2018 11:14:07 AM EDT by rock71]
I like fixed front and rear sights on patrol rifles. They are rugged when stored in trunks and don't need to be deployed. A chopped A2 or other fixed rear still allows for optics. A Magpul fore end is cheaper than a FF rail, feels better than a quad rail, and still allows for easy mounting of a light.

That's how I would set patrol rifles up.

I would set a personal rifle up differently, based on other factors.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 11:19:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2018 11:19:51 AM EDT by StraightMiataMan]
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Originally Posted By new_frontier13:
Interesting, I wouldn't have thought the front sight base would be a big snag magnet being nearer the muzzle. We T&E'd an oversized charging handle and that SOB got caught on everything in the car. It also snagged mag flaps and TQ's when slung.
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It's not a huge issue, and my Badger Ordnance latch definitely got caught on more things. It was more that I'd get it caught on cargo pockets and such than it was catching on everything like the handle did. My view is that this gear is there to keep me and others alive, and that's not something I generally put a price on (within reason).

Still got that charging handle. Love the darn thing, despite how uncomfortable it is slung. Fell over on my back once. Rifle flew up on the sling, landed straight back down on my sternum, charging handle latch first. Left a nice bruise for a few days.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 11:24:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By rock71:
I like fixed front and rear sights on patrol rifles. They are rugged when stored in trunks and don't need to be deployed. A chopped A2 or other fixed rear still allows for optics. A Magpul fore end is cheaper than a FF rail, feels better than a quad rail, and still allows for easy mounting of a light.

That's how I would set patrol rifles up.

I would set a personal rifle up differently, based on other factors.
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Thanks for the input. For an issue gun, its hard to beat the simplicity of fixed sights with the option of co witness optics. The horrors i've seen as the department armor makes me very hesitant to issue anything that isn't barney proof.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 11:31:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By StraightMiataMan:

It's not a huge issue, and my Badger Ordnance latch definitely got caught on more things. It was more that I'd get it caught on cargo pockets and such than it was catching on everything like the handle did. My view is that this gear is there to keep me and others alive, and that's not something I generally put a price on (within reason).

I would love to issue DD Mk18's or KAC SBR's but very few departments are going to get a budget that will allow such purchases. It comes down to striking a balance between upgraded equipment and more training. I've never worked for a department that had a surplus of training budget. If I can articulate that the extra $11,250 for free float barrels is worth the expenditure I will.

Still got that charging handle. Love the darn thing, despite how uncomfortable it is slung. Fell over on my back once. Rifle flew up on the sling, landed straight back down on my sternum, charging handle latch first. Left a nice bruise for a few days.
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LOL I got in one hell of a fight when I was a pup and was left with a green and blue glock print on my hip for a couple weeks.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 3:30:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 4:53:59 PM EDT
When my place first looked at putting carbines in the cars we took a hard look at the way personnel realistically treat departmentally owned equipment. We came to the conclusion that the simplest most robust sight system was a must (the KISS method). We also knew that if there was some type of button or dial then you ran the risk of having an inquisitive (bored) officer start to push it or turn it out of its dialed in mark. To combat this we actually had a manufacturer built 16" light weight bbl collapsible stock A1 fixed rear sights/carry handle -fixed front sight base weapons. We then mounted surefire lights on a saddle style pic rail mount allowing for ambi light mounting for both right and left hand shooters. We left std charging handles in place and then added a two point sling. We opted to keep open iron sights on these to be very similar to our shotguns and for argument sake handguns. We wanted officers to be proficient with iron that they were not slaves to red dots because when it absolutely needs to work at that moment electronic stuff fails. We also allow personally owned rifles to be used as long as they meet certain requirements. These can be flat tops with model specific red dots but must have buis mounted. Officers that opt to use their own with red dots were required to first shoot the course of fire with iron sights prior to even running the course with optics no exceptions.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 4:59:59 PM EDT
Fixed front sight with your choice of handguard. Magpul offers less in the way of mounting options (placement locations) for accessories (like WMLs) down the line, but they’re comfy and light. My preference would be FF, but if it’s going to suck a ton of money out of your patrol budget, they’re definitely not necessary.

I wouldn’t worry about snag hazards with the FSB. I’ve been getting in and out of patrol vehicles with a standard M4 for nearly 10 years now and it snagging on things is something I have yet to notice.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 5:04:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mpddoug162:
When my place first looked at putting carbines in the cars we took a hard look at the way personnel realistically treat departmentally owned equipment. We came to the conclusion that the simplest most robust sight system was a must (the KISS method). We also knew that if there was some type of button or dial then you ran the risk of having an inquisitive (bored) officer start to push it or turn it out of its dialed in mark. To combat this we actually had a manufacturer built 16" light weight bbl collapsible stock A1 fixed rear sights/carry handle -fixed front sight base weapons. We then mounted surefire lights on a saddle style pic rail mount allowing for ambi light mounting for both right and left hand shooters. We left std charging handles in place and then added a two point sling. We opted to keep open iron sights on these to be very similar to our shotguns and for argument sake handguns. We wanted officers to be proficient with iron that they were not slaves to red dots because when it absolutely needs to work at that moment electronic stuff fails. We also allow personally owned rifles to be used as long as they meet certain requirements. These can be flat tops with model specific red dots but must have buis mounted. Officers that opt to use their own with red dots were required to first shoot the course of fire with iron sights prior to even running the course with optics no exceptions.
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While I understand the concerns, it’s not 1995 anymore. When your standard Joe can be issued a rifle with an RDS in .mil and they still work 99.9% of the time, I highly doubt your patrol officers are going to be able to do worse.

With that said, it’s cool that you allow personal rifles with personal optics for the guys that want them.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 6:40:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2018 6:44:28 PM EDT by mpddoug162]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
While I understand the concerns, it’s not 1995 anymore. When your standard Joe can be issued a rifle with an RDS in .mil and they still work 99.9% of the time, I highly doubt your patrol officers are going to be able to do worse.

With that said, it’s cool that you allow personal rifles with personal optics for the guys that want them.
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Originally Posted By RJeff21:
Originally Posted By mpddoug162:
When my place first looked at putting carbines in the cars we took a hard look at the way personnel realistically treat departmentally owned equipment. We came to the conclusion that the simplest most robust sight system was a must (the KISS method). We also knew that if there was some type of button or dial then you ran the risk of having an inquisitive (bored) officer start to push it or turn it out of its dialed in mark. To combat this we actually had a manufacturer built 16" light weight bbl collapsible stock A1 fixed rear sights/carry handle -fixed front sight base weapons. We then mounted surefire lights on a saddle style pic rail mount allowing for ambi light mounting for both right and left hand shooters. We left std charging handles in place and then added a two point sling. We opted to keep open iron sights on these to be very similar to our shotguns and for argument sake handguns. We wanted officers to be proficient with iron that they were not slaves to red dots because when it absolutely needs to work at that moment electronic stuff fails. We also allow personally owned rifles to be used as long as they meet certain requirements. These can be flat tops with model specific red dots but must have buis mounted. Officers that opt to use their own with red dots were required to first shoot the course of fire with iron sights prior to even running the course with optics no exceptions.
While I understand the concerns, it’s not 1995 anymore. When your standard Joe can be issued a rifle with an RDS in .mil and they still work 99.9% of the time, I highly doubt your patrol officers are going to be able to do worse.

With that said, it’s cool that you allow personal rifles with personal optics for the guys that want them.
At that time we were lucky to have gotten the green light for rifles. Our top admin people were of a different generation and were not pro patrol operations but had the mind set of call SWAT with all the special equipment. It was not until when the top two admin retired that the new ones gave money to put the surefires on. Some times you have to pick and choose your battles and take what some are grudgingly willing to give. I've since retired but was told that within the last year the dept opted to purchase new duty pistols (old ones were 16 yrs old)and even bought tactical lights for everyone. up to then it was swat and k9 only. He with the checkbook is always right no matter how outdated or close minded.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 8:39:00 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:

While I understand the concerns, it’s not 1995 anymore. When your standard Joe can be issued a rifle with an RDS in .mil and they still work 99.9% of the time, I highly doubt your patrol officers are going to be able to do worse.

With that said, it’s cool that you allow personal rifles with personal optics for the guys that want them.
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In my department's case, it isn't that we don't want optics, but adding 600 or more to the budget isn't going to happen. The best compromise is to set the guns up so they'll be easy to add later.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 8:58:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2018 8:59:53 PM EDT by Bigger_Hammer]
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Originally Posted By rock71:
I like fixed front and rear sights on patrol rifles. They are rugged when stored in trunks and don't need to be deployed. A chopped A2 or other fixed rear still allows for optics. A Magpul fore end is cheaper than a FF rail, feels better than a quad rail, and still allows for easy mounting of a light.

That's how I would set patrol rifles up.
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This... K.I.S.S.

Not a lot of stuff to get damaged or messed up. (Folding BUIS, QD Optics, tactical taco carriers or such...)

I'd really look at using the Daniel Defense A1.5 Fixed Rear sight. It is bomb proof and the adjustments - Zero can't "accidentally" get moved.

Daniel Defense A1.5 Fixed Rear Sight.

MagPull MOE makes it easy to add rail for light or a vertical foregrip if that is the preference.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 9:11:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:

This... K.I.S.S.

Not a lot of stuff to get damaged or messed up. (Folding BUIS, QD Optics, tactical taco carriers or such...)

I'd really look at using the Daniel Defense A1.5 Fixed Rear sight. It is bomb proof and the adjustments - Zero can't "accidentally" get moved.

Daniel Defense A1.5 Fixed Rear Sight.

MagPull MOE makes it easy to add rail for light or a vertical foregrip if that is the preference.
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Sometimes, I think ARFCOM is spying on me. If I talk about something, it shows up in my feed. Just this week, we tested FN patrol rifles with fixed front sights, Magpul fore ends, and DD fixed rears.

Seriously, guys stop. It's creepy.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 11:23:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2018 11:25:31 PM EDT by ColtRifle]
Go with the fixed front sight. I understand tight budgets all too well. Gotta make due with what you have. Save the money and get lights if possible. A patrol rifle can be without an optic but should NOT be without a light.

Are the rifles going in pool cars? Ideally a rifle should not be issued to a car...it should be issued (zeroed) to a single person. Admin and detectives can do without patrol rifles.
Link Posted: 7/3/2018 11:56:36 PM EDT
Beautiful, ultra reliable, simplicity.

Link Posted: 7/4/2018 1:55:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Go with the fixed front sight. I understand tight budgets all too well. Gotta make due with what you have. Save the money and get lights if possible. A patrol rifle can be without an optic but should NOT be without a light.

Are the rifles going in pool cars? Ideally a rifle should not be issued to a car...it should be issued (zeroed) to a single person. Admin and detectives can do without patrol rifles.
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I would love to issue to individual officers, but unfortunately we just don’t have the budget and my boss won’t die on that hill. Detectives and admin have take home vehicles (6) and they will be equipped with rifles.
Link Posted: 7/4/2018 2:56:07 PM EDT
True story.
Back in the 70's we had Ithaca shotguns in each car. When a bank robber decided to fight it out with one of the guys it was loaded with birdshot, except for the last round, which was 00 Buck. One of the guys had been bird hunting on duty and left the shotgun loaded with bird shot.
I say that to say this. KEEP IT SIMPLE.
If you have two, three officers in a patrol car 24 hours a day.. someone is going to fuck it up for everyone. The mag may be empty or nearly so. The sights are going to get fucked up.
Patrol rifles are essential tools, but keep them simple. The supervisors are going to have to inspect them on a regular basis...if they have lights (and they should) someone is gonna have to check the batteries cause someone on day shift is going to leave it on all day and then it will be dead at 2 am.
40 years of experience here...whatever you decide to get, make sure someone responsible INSPECTS the rifles on a regular basis.
Link Posted: 7/4/2018 11:15:24 PM EDT
Fixed sight base with Magpul furniture. I would get flat tops and use removable carry handles to keep it simple. The carry handle with two thumbscrews might by sturdier.
Link Posted: 7/5/2018 1:41:54 PM EDT
Do you guys allow personally owned rifles?

We have some pool rifles, and just like the pool squads, everything on them is messed up. Lights are dead or broken, half the EoTech's have a dead battery, the BZO is always completely off.
Link Posted: 7/6/2018 11:41:18 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Cjones124:
Do you guys allow personally owned rifles?

We have some pool rifles, and just like the pool squads, everything on them is messed up. Lights are dead or broken, half the EoTech's have a dead battery, the BZO is always completely off.
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I wish, the big boss is adamant that we carry dept issue only. He begrudgingly ignores officers carrying their own plate carriers on patrol. He originally decided that we would issue one per patrol vehicle but then couldn’t find the money in the budget. We have been known to go without because we don’t have the budget and being uniform is more important. Hell, he won’t let us apply for grants because he believes they all come with strings attached. Sorry if that turned into a rant.
Link Posted: 7/8/2018 6:07:55 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By new_frontier13:
I wish, the big boss is adamant that we carry dept issue only. He begrudgingly ignores officers carrying their own plate carriers on patrol. He originally decided that we would issue one per patrol vehicle but then couldn’t find the money in the budget. We have been known to go without because we don’t have the budget and being uniform is more important. Hell, he won’t let us apply for grants because he believes they all come with strings attached. Sorry if that turned into a rant.
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Originally Posted By new_frontier13:
Originally Posted By Cjones124:
Do you guys allow personally owned rifles?

We have some pool rifles, and just like the pool squads, everything on them is messed up. Lights are dead or broken, half the EoTech's have a dead battery, the BZO is always completely off.
I wish, the big boss is adamant that we carry dept issue only. He begrudgingly ignores officers carrying their own plate carriers on patrol. He originally decided that we would issue one per patrol vehicle but then couldn’t find the money in the budget. We have been known to go without because we don’t have the budget and being uniform is more important. Hell, he won’t let us apply for grants because he believes they all come with strings attached. Sorry if that turned into a rant.
That sucks, chiefs can be the biggest detriment to a PD not a lack of money.
Link Posted: 7/8/2018 8:33:12 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By new_frontier13:

I wish, the big boss is adamant that we carry dept issue only. He begrudgingly ignores officers carrying their own plate carriers on patrol. He originally decided that we would issue one per patrol vehicle but then couldn’t find the money in the budget. We have been known to go without because we don’t have the budget and being uniform is more important. Hell, he won’t let us apply for grants because he believes they all come with strings attached. Sorry if that turned into a rant.
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If you are represented by a police union you should have them draft some type of official letter and send it to the chiefs office along with the mayor/safety service director/ who ever runs your agency both from within and out plus the local news media and send a list of all the grants that are out there and how much money it could save the city/twp/county..... since a lot of this stuff is officer safety related.... and I bet the political people will take notice and then strongly encourage the chief to act.
Link Posted: 7/10/2018 5:15:35 PM EDT
we use pop ups and optics.
Link Posted: 7/10/2018 5:25:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2018 5:36:35 PM EDT by Knife_Sniper]
I think your plan for two piece handguards and a fixed front sight base are a logical choice.

This prevents the need for armorer level maintenance should a handguard or float tube get damaged. Just pull a delta ring and pop in a new magpul handguard.

A DD or Larue rear with A1.5 (a1 windage system with a2 peep) will be another logical choice.

It requires tool to adjust, and once zeored, will remain zeroed. Will co-witness with red dots in the future.

Float tubes and detachable front sights are another area that will need more overwatch as a hard impact could shift a rail enough to move your zero and any damage requires more advanced armorer repair.

Not to mention it is another set of screws (BUIS) that could loosen and cause zero to dick up. People who are voting for BUIS on float tubes arent factoring in the average officer likely isnt a gun guy or gal. Qualify and move on might be the end of their relationship with firearms.

They wont be careful to observe for loosening FSB hardware, nor will they be privvy to the fact that iron sight zero can shift on a float tube with pressure, especially the longer systems. If the tube gets hit hard and shifts zero well then thats yet another liability they likely wont know or care about about.

Just more BS to monitor and additional training you hope officers rememeber and put into practice.

Go with the standard two piece handguard and fixed front sight base. It will handle more abuse with less to go wrong.
Link Posted: 7/10/2018 5:41:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/10/2018 5:43:25 PM EDT by bs295]
If budget is a concern as it was for us, shop around and try to get the best deal you can. Last year, after getting a more progressive Chief, we decided to get new Ar15's for every officer. I contacted the main police supply company in the state and got quotes. They were pushing Windham on us, but I didn't like the options on them. With the Chief's permission, I went to some local gun shops and gave them a chance to supply the rifles. A local shop wanted our future business and shopped around with makers and distributors to get us the best deal.

We ended up with Stag Arms with 16"bbl, Diamonhead rail, DD front and rear sights, Magpul slings, weapon lights, and P mags for about $1000. The Windham guns with two piece handguards and fixed front and rear sights would have cost about the same when you add on slings and lights. We don't issue any optics, but allow personal optics with the firearms instructor approval.

I don't think fixed sights are the best, or really needed option anymore, with quality sights like the Daniel Defense, or other options out there. If your Chief allows, shop around and you might get a good deal from a gun shop wanting your future business.

Edit; I don't know what your training is like, but we have everyone come and do rifle, pistol and shotgun training every other month and it seems to help build confidence with the non gun personnel.
Link Posted: 7/11/2018 3:48:59 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By new_frontier13:

Thanks for the input. For an issue gun, its hard to beat the simplicity of fixed sights with the option of co witness optics. The horrors i've seen as the department armor makes me very hesitant to issue anything that isn't barney proof.
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What's the complete breakdown on the package you're going with, other than the iron sights
Link Posted: 7/11/2018 3:58:14 AM EDT
If you are going to be running Irons as your primary until you buy optics later (if that happens) then you need fixed sights.

Fixed sights on a free float will be the best option but a conventional A frame is ok too.
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