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Posted: 7/21/2017 8:49:32 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the few compact options available for no-SBR no-folding stock states, like NJ. As cool as they were, they just don't feel right to me and I always come back to the AR. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 8:57:50 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Every respectable modern Western military, is pretty much dropping their Bullpups for AR style weapons. With the magazine and action in ahead of the operator's face. Britain has the 7.62 LMT, France is going to an AR, New Zealand got rid of their AUGs. Seems like everyone is figuring out how dumb they are. To paraphrase Karl Kasarda. If you are a engineer, trying to create a ergonamic weapon for war. You don't come up with a Bullpup. I already have in mind that I'll get a MP5SD clone as a range toy. And I kinda want an AUG. But I don't want 5,000 dollars worth of range toy invested. I'd rather have the MP5. what do you guys think I should do? IDK ask the Jews ..... ETA: if tavors had adjustable gas (so as to be silencer friendly) I would have bought one long ago |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:09:48 AM EDT
[#3]
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<snip> my Jetta Sportwagen <snip> couldn't fit an AR15 <snip> |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:13:49 AM EDT
[#4]
They have their advantages
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:15:07 AM EDT
[#5]
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I have no idea, but if I come across a Tavor and the price is right I'm buying it. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:18:28 AM EDT
[#6]
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UK and France would have been better off the follow the Canadian approach and adopt an M16 variant instead of their 5.56 bullpups. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:37:21 AM EDT
[#7]
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Do they solve the rail drawing blood when you pull the CH issue?  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The AUG with the Corvus Defensio upgrades solves every problem with bullpup - except for cost. http://corvusdefensio.com/wp-content/uploads/Still0930_00036.jpg An MP5 with the stock extended in 27" - the same length as a 16" barrel AUG. Image stolen via google images: http://www.ricanhavocproductions.com/oldsite/images/auga3-mp5a3.jpg "The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed." You would really need to hamfist it or be into a little rough trade to draw blood. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:39:10 AM EDT
[#8]
Doesn't anyone remember how the AR / M16 was constantly bashed by the "the M14 was the best evaar" or M1 Garand crowd?
AR is a standard platform with 50 years development. Bullpup models, not there yet. And put away the stopwatch. Really? I can ding the shit out of the M4's design flaws but those flaws can me mitigated just as the awkward mag exchanges. Besides most of you, including the hardened 11B vets, still struggle to pull a Pmag out of a mag pouch in a timely manner. And that's standing up. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:45:28 AM EDT
[#9]
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Besides most of you, including the hardened 11B vets, still struggle to pull a Pmag out of a mag pouch in a timely manner. And that's standing up. Get better mag pouches. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:47:58 AM EDT
[#10]
They have their uses. If length isn't a concern, then they have no purpose compared to a mag forward design.
In the US, due to our stupid fucking laws, they allow one to have the shortest possible weapon for getting around inside a vehicle or home without having to NFA. I have considered trying one out with a 40 round magpul mag for my home defense rifle due to their shortness. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:52:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Four pages and no CarniK Con
 Failed To Load Title You fuckers disappoint. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 9:54:09 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I already have in mind that I'll get a MP5SD clone as a range toy. And I kinda want an AUG. But I don't want 5,000 dollars worth of range toy invested. I'd rather have the MP5. what do you guys think I should do? My LGS has a used AUG for about $1100. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 10:20:05 AM EDT
[#13]
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Get a stop watch. Lay in the prone. Shoot a magazine and time your reload speed with the Tavor. Do the same with an AR Compare the results.  |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 10:34:06 AM EDT
[#14]
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Since hearing people complain about that here, every time I see someone doing a bullpup mag change it's glaringly obvious. Mag changes are fucking awkward as hell. You just can't do it prone without pulling the rifle way off target. How does the reduction in OAL compensate for that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Get a stop watch. Lay in the prone. Shoot a magazine and time your reload speed with the Tavor. Do the same with an AR Compare the results. What's this touchscreen bullshit on latest smartphones? How is anyone supposed to type or dial on those fucking things. Fucking bullshit. I'm sticking with my Blackberry. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 10:38:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote History |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 10:47:49 AM EDT
[#16]
L22 Tanker Carbine
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Posted: 7/21/2017 11:01:37 AM EDT
[#17]
but I like bullpups.
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Posted: 7/21/2017 11:07:20 AM EDT
[#18]
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I only have two complaints about bullpups in my limited experience, triggers are shit and if you try to shoot one lefty you better be fucking destro. The reload time I don't really consider another few seconds on a rifle reload as a major issue. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 11:27:02 AM EDT
[#19]
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My LGS has a used AUG for about $1100. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 11:35:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My LGS has a used AUG for about $1100. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 11:41:14 AM EDT
[#21]
They have been around longer than most of you have been on this planet.
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Posted: 7/21/2017 11:43:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AR is a standard platform with 50 years development. Bullpup models, not there yet. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 11:50:13 AM EDT
[#23]
This is why I love freedom of choice, capitalism and being a civilian.
I can have whatever I want, when I want it and not forced to use one style of rifle. What truly matters is what comes out if the barrel and where it hits. Other than that, I think all of them are cool. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:05:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Every respectable modern Western military, is pretty much dropping their Bullpups for AR style weapons. With the magazine and action in ahead of the operator's face. Britain has the 7.62 LMT, France is going to an AR, New Zealand got rid of their AUGs. Seems like everyone is figuring out how dumb they are. To paraphrase Karl Kasarda. If you are a engineer, trying to create a ergonamic weapon for war. You don't come up with a Bullpup. I already have in mind that I'll get a MP5SD clone as a range toy. And I kinda want an AUG. But I don't want 5,000 dollars worth of range toy invested. I'd rather have the MP5. what do you guys think I should do? I have a Tavor X95. It's fun. I've love to have an suppressed MP5 SBR, but $$$$. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:20:06 PM EDT
[#25]
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That's a lot of ignorance going on. I carried a Steyr Aug before I retired and it's a lot more reliable and just as accurate as any Colt AR15 or Colt M4 I ever used on or off duty. Only other thing I'll say is an H&K MP5 costs about $30,000, not $5,000. I think you should just stick with an AR15. Sounds like all you can afford. An AUG is like not far behind 2000 dollars. I don't really want 5k into range toys. So I am thinking of just doing the MP5, but I've wanted an AUG too, |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:23:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since hearing people complain about that here, every time I see someone doing a bullpup mag change it's glaringly obvious. Mag changes are fucking awkward as hell. You just can't do it prone without pulling the rifle way off target. How does the reduction in OAL compensate for that? Gothcha... I don't have any problem at all doing AUG mag changes from standing, kneeling or prone. My AUG shooting and mag changes are fast enough that I'm always in the top 10% of any 2 and 3-gun match I attend (which is usually 1 a month with 35+ shooters on average). AR shooters explaining an AUG is like a blind man explaining a color chart. 
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:24:39 PM EDT
[#27]
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So you have no first hand experience...? Gothcha... I don't have any problem at all doing AUG mag changes from standing, kneeling or prone. My AUG shooting and mag changes are fast enough that I'm always in the top 10% of any 2 and 3-gun match I attend (which is usually 1 a month with 35+ shooters on average). AR shooters explaining an AUG is like a blind man explaining a color chart. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:34:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Lots of purse throwing ITT.
If you like bullpups good. If you don't good. I Happen to reckonize they have a place and a role and can be a net + or a net - Need to maneuver in tiny spaces: hard to beat a ps90 or a true length x95. But a 10.3" AR w small collapsible stock isn't that bad. Take that ps90 and suppress it and it won't blow your hearing when you light it off indoors nor be super long. Need a precision rifle? Sorry it probably won't be a bull-pup. If you learn to shoot on ARs then bullpups will feel weird. If you learn to shoot on bullpups then ARs will feel weird. If you live in Canada a bullpup is great since it's easy to keep those 18" non restricted What'll help the bullpups concept are improvements to designs such as: 1) weight mitigation. A lot tend to be heavy but so are a lot of ARs nowadays. They need to not balance behind the pistol grip when loaded. 2) length of pull many bullpups are too long and of course not adjustable. 3) mag changes. Personally that's overrated 4) trigger linkages. Again it's not a precision gun but some triggers really suck. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:34:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No way is changing a magazine in an AUG, as fast as an AR The biggest time suck is moving my hand between the foregrip and the reload mag. The actual swap happens just as fast with Steyr mags (which drop free) and a AUG A3 which has a bolt release paddle. Bolt locks back Retrieve reload mag Bring reload mag up right next to the magwell Use my thumb to hit the mag release, mag drops free (can use fingers to help strip the mag if you want to rip it out) Insert reload mag as soon as the empty clears the mag well Thumb hits the paddle bolt release (located right above the mag well on the left side of the rifle) chambering a round Support hand returns to the foregrip At no time does the rifle leave my shoulder and I don't have to break cheek weld. It's a lot like loading a AR from a Redi-Mag. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:47:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you have no first hand experience...? Gothcha... I don't have any problem at all doing AUG mag changes from standing, kneeling or prone. My AUG shooting and mag changes are fast enough that I'm always in the top 10% of any 2 and 3-gun match I attend (which is usually 1 a month with 35+ shooters on average). AR shooters explaining an AUG is like a blind man explaining a color chart. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Since hearing people complain about that here, every time I see someone doing a bullpup mag change it's glaringly obvious. Mag changes are fucking awkward as hell. You just can't do it prone without pulling the rifle way off target. How does the reduction in OAL compensate for that? Gothcha... I don't have any problem at all doing AUG mag changes from standing, kneeling or prone. My AUG shooting and mag changes are fast enough that I'm always in the top 10% of any 2 and 3-gun match I attend (which is usually 1 a month with 35+ shooters on average). AR shooters explaining an AUG is like a blind man explaining a color chart.  Bullpup Rifles: Part 1 - The Concept I'm curious for all those talking speed reloads in the prone, where do you attach your mag pouches? Belly? Upper chest? Weak side? Strong side? |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 12:57:39 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No way is changing a magazine in an AUG, as fast as an AR |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:06:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats not what I meant. A MP5SD clone will run for around 3k, after its SBR'd and Suppressed. An AUG is like not far behind 2000 dollars. I don't really want 5k into range toys. So I am thinking of just doing the MP5, but I've wanted an AUG too, Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's a lot of ignorance going on. I carried a Steyr Aug before I retired and it's a lot more reliable and just as accurate as any Colt AR15 or Colt M4 I ever used on or off duty. Only other thing I'll say is an H&K MP5 costs about $30,000, not $5,000. I think you should just stick with an AR15. Sounds like all you can afford. An AUG is like not far behind 2000 dollars. I don't really want 5k into range toys. So I am thinking of just doing the MP5, but I've wanted an AUG too, 
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:08:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm still waiting to see any videos of soldiers in combat doing hsld, competition style mag changes that you see people doing on YouTube. Most seem to involve getting behind cover, un-shouldering the rifle, then taking at least 5-10 seconds to do the mag change Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No way is changing a magazine in an AUG, as fast as an AR I may not be a soldier but I've watched hundreds of combat videos and never once have I seen a speed reload. It's always a guy behind cover taking his time to do it right |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:15:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm still waiting to see any videos of soldiers in combat doing hsld, competition style mag changes that you see people doing on YouTube. Most seem to involve getting behind cover, un-shouldering the rifle, then taking at least 5-10 seconds to do the mag change Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No way is changing a magazine in an AUG, as fast as an AR I'm sure the old codgers probably grumbled similarly about switching from their beloved Garands, "Arrrr... the stripper clips are much easier. Who the heck thought it'd be a good idea to reload from the bottom? That newfangled plastic shit... you can keep those. And where's muh danged 'ping' to tell me I need to reload?". Crotchety old folks hate change and relearning stuff. Something about old dogs and new tricks. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:16:29 PM EDT
[#35]
After the sig 551, the aug was my grail gun...........obtaining a 551 in rifle form remains a fleeting ambition for me, but the aug is within reach............and now im reluctant to spend the $1600+ to get there.
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:17:26 PM EDT
[#36]
I loathe the term "range toy". They are all "range toys",even your AR that you have configured shoot it out with the government/UN/Mexican cartel/black nationalist uprising/ISIS at your local Walmart. Yes,I know,everybody is a serious operator preparing for when it kicks off ... but that shit is ridiculous.
The statistical chance of having your "go to war platform" handy when faced with a very rare real world scenario is pretty damn close to none and I am trying to think of some scenario that has happened in real life in which case being armed with a Tavor/AUG/FS2000 would be at a legitimate hinderance rather and can come up with next to none. Then again,I think throwing a pistol in potting soil to test its suitability for concealed carry is dumb as fuck too but millions of YouTube views say I'm wrong about this as well. Sorry,there is entertainment and then there is reality. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:21:58 PM EDT
[#37]
I think I'll get the .308 Tavor. That looks really neat.
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:24:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I loathe the term "range toy". They are all "range toys",even your AR that you have configured shoot it out with the government/UN/Mexican cartel/black nationalist uprising/ISIS at your local Walmart. Yes,I know,everybody is a serious operator preparing for when it kicks off ... but that shit is ridiculous. The statistical chance of having your "go to war platform" handy when faced with a very rare real world scenario is pretty damn close to none and I am trying to think of some scenario that has happened in real life in which case being armed with a Tavor/AUG/FS2000 would be at a legitimate hinderance rather and can come up with next to none. Then again,I think throwing a pistol in potting soil to test its suitability for concealed carry is dumb as fuck too but millions of YouTube views say I'm wrong about this as well. Sorry,there is entertainment and then there is reality. I am not not one of those "prepared for war guys". Though I have friends and relatives say that if SHTF, they are coming to me. 
But I am talking about a weapon you would defend your home from intruders. Because that shit DOES happen. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:27:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since hearing people complain about that here, every time I see someone doing a bullpup mag change it's glaringly obvious. Mag changes are fucking awkward as hell. You just can't do it prone without pulling the rifle way off target. How does the reduction in OAL compensate for that? Not to mention the physical movement of grabbing another magazine out of pouch - which on a chest rig, is smushed into the ground. The only difference with a Bullpup is that you are inserting a magazine 10" away from your shoulder vs 16" away from your shoulder. It's really easy, but people act like reloading a Bullpup is like reloading a Brown Bess. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:28:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm still waiting to see any videos of soldiers in combat doing hsld, competition style mag changes that you see people doing on YouTube. Most seem to involve getting behind cover, un-shouldering the rifle, then taking at least 5-10 seconds to do the mag change
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:33:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Maybe they are but I still want a Tavor X95
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:36:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Here's the definitive list of Bullpup magazine changes. Up to you if this is fast enough.
AUG 1: https://youtu.be/AMSvMNiRqL4?t=1m17s AUG 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXvUtvC7nxs AUG 3: https://youtu.be/SEy1nDTYzhk?t=1m44s Tavor 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgNjfXbjrk0 Tavor vs AR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-BVc6abkcU edit, for some reason they don't link when I post, so copy and paste to browser. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:41:39 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm still waiting to see any videos of soldiers in combat doing hsld, competition style mag changes that you see people doing on YouTube. Most seem to involve getting behind cover, un-shouldering the rifle, then taking at least 5-10 seconds to do the mag change Faster reloads are faster. Faster may or may not matter much. So to for the other differences between different arms. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:45:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Doesn't anyone remember how the AR / M16 was constantly bashed by the "the M14 was the best evaar" or M1 Garand crowd? AR is a standard platform with 50 years development. Bullpup models, not there yet. And put away the stopwatch. Really? I can ding the shit out of the M4's design flaws but those flaws can me mitigated just as the awkward mag exchanges. Besides most of you, including the hardened 11B vets, still struggle to pull a Pmag out of a mag pouch in a timely manner. And that's standing up. The bullpup configuration has one inherent advantage and a number of disadvantages that can be somewhat mitigated. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:45:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They have been around longer than most of you have been on this planet. http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/components/com_mojo/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/photo.JPG 
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Posted: 7/21/2017 1:49:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But I am talking about a weapon you would defend your home from intruders. Because that shit DOES happen. Much shorter OAL makes it easier to carry in tight quarters and easier to keep the muzzle from "leading the way" around corners. The AUG has more to hold onto for the shooter and a lot less to grab onto for someone trying to disarm you versus the AR. The butt heavy AUG is awesome for one handed shooting, you can treat it exactly like a shoulder stocked pistol. It's less fatiguing to carry at the ready one-handed and is easier to shoot one-handed than an AR. That's a big advantage when it comes to opening doors, flipping on/off light switches, talking on a cell phone, performing first-aid on a wound, holding onto kids or holding onto a dog collar/leash or any of the other dozens of tasks you might need to use a hand for while also holding or shooting a HD rifle. But muhhh speed reloads from prone!!! I'll worry about that once I've gone through the 42 rounds that the awesome Steyr factory mags hold.
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Posted: 7/21/2017 2:04:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the AUG kicks the shit out of the AR when it comes to maneuverability inside a house. Much shorter OAL makes it easier to carry in tight quarters and easier to keep the muzzle from "leading the way" around corners. The AUG has more to hold onto for the shooter and a lot less to grab onto for someone trying to disarm you versus the AR. The butt heavy AUG is awesome for one handed shooting, you can treat it exactly like a shoulder stocked pistol. It's less fatiguing to carry at the ready one-handed and is easier to shoot one-handed than an AR. That's a big advantage when it comes to opening doors, flipping on/off light switches, talking on a cell phone, performing first-aid on a wound, holding onto kids or holding onto a dog collar/leash or any of the other dozens of tasks you might need to use a hand for while also holding or shooting a HD rifle. But muhhh speed reloads from prone!!! I'll worry about that once I've gone through the 42 rounds that the awesome Steyr factory mags hold. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 3:14:24 PM EDT
[#48]
I don't even consider them range toys. I've always thought I could shoot anything but having that bolt slamming back and forth under my cheek is just tooo freeky like dat.
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Posted: 7/21/2017 3:18:33 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No wonder you like shotties for HD. Please get some quality training. |
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Posted: 7/21/2017 3:42:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll put my training and competition resume (as well as my skill level) up against yours anytime buttercup. 
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