Last night while working I made a minor mistake and my Sgt. was making me do iron mikes and low crawls as punishment.  While doing this a Brigadier General, my Brigade Commander, and my Battalion Commander happen to walk by and see this.  

The General asks what is going on and is informed.  He then informs my Sgt that "This is not the Army of 20 years ago.  We don't do physical punishment, you do UCMJ"

So 45 minutes later my Sgt and I (separately) are in front of the Battalion Commander, Command Sergeant Major, Company Commander, and First Sergeant giving the whole series of events.

My Sgt is informed that he is never to smoke a soldier for a mistake again and is to inform all the Sgt's in the platoon that they are not to as well.

When the BC asked me what I thought I said " I made a mistake and was getting punished, I deserved it.  The BC found it nice that i accepted responsibility but found it "extreemly disturbing" that i thought the smoking was acceptable.

When did the Army go so pussy!!??  Untill last night I never heard of the "no phyiscal punishment rule"  

Hell I think phyiscal punishment need to be stepped up and "wall-to-wall" councelling needs to be brought back.

A Marine died in Africa over the summer doing PT in a tent as punishment for "something"

Quoted: Last night while working I made a minor mistake and my Sgt. was making me do iron mikes and low crawls as punishment.  While doing this a Brigadier General, my Brigade Commander, and my Battalion Commander happen to walk by and see this.   The General asks what is going on and is informed.  He then informs my Sgt that "This is not the Army of 20 years ago.  We don't do physical punishment, you do UCMJ" So 45 minutes later my Sgt and I (separately) are in front of the Battalion Commander, Command Sergeant Major, Company Commander, and First Sergeant giving the whole series of events. My Sgt is informed that he is never to smoke a soldier for a mistake again and is to inform all the Sgt's in the platoon that they are not to as well. When the BC asked me what I thought I said " I made a mistake and was getting punished, I deserved it.  The BC found it nice that i accepted responsibility but found it "extreemly disturbing" that i thought the smoking was acceptable. When did the Army go so pussy!!??  Untill last night I never heard of the "no phyiscal punishment rule"   Hell I think phyiscal punishment need to be stepped up and "wall-to-wall" councelling needs to be brought back.

So what you are saying is a punishment that is still ok for a highschool football team is now too "harsh" for out military?

Quoted: Quoted: Last night while working I made a minor mistake and my Sgt. was making me do iron mikes and low crawls as punishment.  While doing this a Brigadier General, my Brigade Commander, and my Battalion Commander happen to walk by and see this.   The General asks what is going on and is informed.  He then informs my Sgt that "This is not the Army of 20 years ago.  We don't do physical punishment, you do UCMJ" So 45 minutes later my Sgt and I (separately) are in front of the Battalion Commander, Command Sergeant Major, Company Commander, and First Sergeant giving the whole series of events. My Sgt is informed that he is never to smoke a soldier for a mistake again and is to inform all the Sgt's in the platoon that they are not to as well. When the BC asked me what I thought I said " I made a mistake and was getting punished, I deserved it.  The BC found it nice that i accepted responsibility but found it "extreemly disturbing" that i thought the smoking was acceptable. When did the Army go so pussy!!??  Untill last night I never heard of the "no phyiscal punishment rule"   Hell I think phyiscal punishment need to be stepped up and "wall-to-wall" councelling needs to be brought back. So what you are saying is a punishment that is still ok for a highschool football team is now too "harsh" for out military?

Hey I'm still in shock at the bull shit of last night.

Shame.  "Sergeant's counseling" (aka "wall to wall counseling") always worked for me, at least temporarily.  Of course that was the army of 20 years ago.

Ive never been in the Army, but it sounds like a load of BS to me.

  It could have to do with the fact that soldier's don't give up their rights to due process to serve in the all-volunteer military. Basic training/AIT is one thing; being done with Basic is another. Most people I've observed getting "smoked" did something minor like address someone as SGT at the end of the sentence rather then before or have their hands in their pockets, etc...

  The majority of the "smoke" sessions I've witnessed were demeaning to the individual and over petty shit. There's a reason the Drill SGT's have to attend a separate school where they basically go through Basic again....Joe the plumber E-5 or E-6 generally lets his mood that day decide the COA.

eta: I'm not saying I'm 100% against PT- punishment, just that most of the time I've witnessed it the so-called infraction was BS. Besides; Army doctrine clearly states when it is and isn't permitted so the individuals using it are often just as guilty of violating Army policies as the individual they are "punishing."

Quoted: Quoted: Last night while working I made a minor mistake and my Sgt. was making me do iron mikes and low crawls as punishment.  While doing this a Brigadier General, my Brigade Commander, and my Battalion Commander happen to walk by and see this.   The General asks what is going on and is informed.  He then informs my Sgt that "This is not the Army of 20 years ago.  We don't do physical punishment, you do UCMJ" So 45 minutes later my Sgt and I (separately) are in front of the Battalion Commander, Command Sergeant Major, Company Commander, and First Sergeant giving the whole series of events. My Sgt is informed that he is never to smoke a soldier for a mistake again and is to inform all the Sgt's in the platoon that they are not to as well. When the BC asked me what I thought I said " I made a mistake and was getting punished, I deserved it.  The BC found it nice that i accepted responsibility but found it "extreemly disturbing" that i thought the smoking was acceptable. When did the Army go so pussy!!??  Untill last night I never heard of the "no phyiscal punishment rule"   Hell I think phyiscal punishment need to be stepped up and "wall-to-wall" councelling needs to be brought back. So what you are saying is a punishment that is still ok for a highschool football team is now too "harsh" for out military?

Yes, high school football teams are not professional organizations, nor are the majority of the individuals men.....men should be treated differently then boys.

Semantics - learn them.

You were doing corrective training.

Only commanders have legal authority to punish a Soldier.

This would be no different than if a cop on the street decided to "punish" a pedestrian for jaywalking.  

The difference is, cops have no authority to train non-cops.  NCOs do have that authority and responsibility to train soldiers.  The similarity is, either person taking punishment in his own hands will get not only himself, but his entire chain of command in seriously hot water - and violate numerous laws regarding due process.

Now drive on and learn to keep a lower profile.

"Corrective training".

It's not punishment, it's an on the spot, one on one PT session.

Quoted: Last night while working I made a minor mistake and my Sgt. was making me do iron mikes and low crawls as punishment.  While doing this a Brigadier General, my Brigade Commander, and my Battalion Commander happen to walk by and see this.   The General asks what is going on and is informed.  He then informs my Sgt that "This is not the Army of 20 years ago.  We don't do physical punishment, you do UCMJ" So 45 minutes later my Sgt and I (separately) are in front of the Battalion Commander, Command Sergeant Major, Company Commander, and First Sergeant giving the whole series of events. My Sgt is informed that he is never to smoke a soldier for a mistake again and is to inform all the Sgt's in the platoon that they are not to as well. When the BC asked me what I thought I said " I made a mistake and was getting punished, I deserved it.  The BC found it nice that i accepted responsibility but found it "extreemly disturbing" that i thought the smoking was acceptable. When did the Army go so pussy!!??  Untill last night I never heard of the "no phyiscal punishment rule"   Hell I think phyiscal punishment need to be stepped up and "wall-to-wall" councelling needs to be brought back.

Never heard that before, but the *understanding* I've allways seen is that if you are going to make a troop do PT for 'corrective training', you do NOT do it anywhere field/flag grades will see.... And you do NOT do purely degrading exercises (what one of my prior NCOs called 'pointless smoking exercises' - monkey-fucker, etc), but rather use those that will be 'beneficial' to the soldier's duty performance (pushups, etc)....

Well, that, and the 'official doctrine' (eg what the General expects to see) is that CT should fit the offense (eg... Pushups don't 'correct' being late to formation... Coming to formation an hour before everyone else, for a month, does....)...

Since that's what the official 'paper solution' specifies... That's what the folks who live in 'paper land' expect to see...

Especially if someone has recently been killed or seriously injured doing things the 'traditional way'...

While I've seen "PT punishment" go overboard before, if it came down to getting smoked or an Article 15, I'd rather get smoked, and I'd be surprised if anyone disagreed.

This sort of touchy feely "its the Army of 20 years ago " thing can only hurt military efficiency in the long term.

Thats all kinds of messed up.

There is value in corrective training. Pain now pays off later. Keep it constructive and keep it positive and it is good to go.

Heck, I enjoy a good smoking. Great tool to help the soldier in the end.

I'm not against punitive PT but I honestly don't believe that it is effective.

One of two possibilities here:

1) Your chain of command, including that General are all legs.

2) If not, they have been in leg land too long, and have now gotten soft

I don't understand the pussy comments.  

Coming from the Army of 20 years ago I was subjected to both forms of correction.

I laughed my way through most smoke sessions.

I really laugh at the hollow, wall to wall-tree to tree-I will take you to the treeline counseling threats. Give me a break.Maybe the army of 30 or 40 years ago you could get away with it but most likely you would end up facing CID, even 20 years ago.
On the more practical side, do you think they have some magical ability to kick someone's ass because they are Sgts? In my exp less than 10 percent were tough enough to actually do something like that.
Is some bone headed troop just going to stand there and take it? Assume he will fight back and now someone is going to get hurt. It may be the troop, and it may be you. Someone is going to the medics and is going to have to explain why Joe privates nose is broken.

In basic we had a guy respond to the Drill Sgt by saying. "I would love it" when threatened with the treeline tour. The Drill backed down and had to get another Drill Sgt to manage the private. Loss of credibility and total loss of respect.

When I was in Germany, I did some foolish things as a young private in a foreign country

One NCO assumed I would be compelled to act in a certain manner via physical punishment. He smoked me whenever he could find some problem or issue. I did the punishment counting one-two-fuck-you to myself. He would get bored and I would go away sweaty and unchanged. Getting smoked had no real impact. But his mind was limited and therefore his response was limited.

The other SGT engaged me in a series of Saturday through Sunday "additional training sessions." 7 am Class A inspection, 11 am field gear inspection, 1 pm Locker inspection. He lived in the barracks and would come down in his flip flops and PT shorts sometimes even eating a piece of pizza while doing the inspection. Instead of normal garrison meals, he brought me some MREs. He made a special point to tell me he was really enjoying the weekend and it was very relaxing. When my platoon buddies left for the evening he had me stand at attention by the CQ desk and wish them a pleasant evening.

I corrected my behavior after the first weekend of "additional training" - He knew right where to "hit me".


Guess who is the better, more effective leader?

Saddens me that stuff has come to this.  I have been beat down by doing monkey-fuckers, bear crawls, burpees, 8-count bodybuilders, swimming on my belly like a fish, many others.  Sometimes for stuff I have done or not done, and many times as part of the team concept.  One pays, we all pay.  It makes you learn really quick not to make the same mistake twice.  I've never been injured by it, just out of breath and pissed off at having to do it.  

Damn i thought you where talking about wall to wall counseling,  lol I got smoked so many times it wasnt funny, lol we got smoked in front of the battalion formation one time :))
It has been a little while since I was in the old Army.





Im on the bottom right.

I feel ya man. Its justs as bad anywhere else and with the way things are going Im starting to doubt its really worth my time, patience and ever graying hair.

I've run the gamut from getting smoked to smoking the everlovin' shit out of a private. I grew up in the Ranger Battalions of the late 80's. All we did was PT, go to the field, and smoke privates.

Looking back on it, and being a senior NCO, now, I will say that I rarely see a "permanent" change in behavior as a result of a physical punishment.

PT is good for shock value and building some esprit de corps, but real change comes from leadership, mentoring, and hitting a kid where it hurts: take away his time and his money.

That's the real killer.

Quoted: I'm not against punitive PT but I honestly don't believe that it is effective.

In the military mistakes should be painful lessons. Better to learn your lessons in sweat than blood.

I don't do it often but I have smoked soldiers before.  Sometimes its effective sometimes not.  Depends on the soldier.  Part of being a leader is knowing what is going to be effective.


These guys have their heads up their asses.  I rather take care of things at the lowest possable level without the involvement of th CoC if possable.  If I can make my point without recommend UCMJ action I will.  

The Army has forgotten what its about.  I thank the Army for the great things its done for me over the past several years, but I thank GOD I only have 10 months left 'till ETS.

ETA: even whe I smoke someone I write a counseling to go with it.  The plan of action ussually involves meeting me at X time and place to "practice listening and following directions"    I won't smoke someone in front of other soldiers unless I absolutely have too.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm not against punitive PT but I honestly don't believe that it is effective. In the military mistakes should be painful lessons. Better to learn your lessons in sweat than blood.

I agree with that in theory, but the reality is that for most, "smoking" is a joke.

I did my growing up in the Marine Corps and I don't think I ever saw anyone outside of entry level training made to do any sort of punitive PT, and discipline over there was tighter than anything I have yet experienced in the Army.

I can't recall a single time since I entered the Army where smoking someone actually seemed to make an impact.

Quoted: Last night while working I made a minor mistake and my Sgt. was making me do iron mikes and low crawls as punishment.  While doing this a Brigadier General, my Brigade Commander, and my Battalion Commander happen to walk by and see this.   The General asks what is going on and is informed.  He then informs my Sgt that "This is not the Army of 20 years ago.  We don't do physical punishment, you do UCMJ" So 45 minutes later my Sgt and I (separately) are in front of the Battalion Commander, Command Sergeant Major, Company Commander, and First Sergeant giving the whole series of events. My Sgt is informed that he is never to smoke a soldier for a mistake again and is to inform all the Sgt's in the platoon that they are not to as well. When the BC asked me what I thought I said " I made a mistake and was getting punished, I deserved it.  The BC found it nice that i accepted responsibility but found it "extreemly disturbing" that i thought the smoking was acceptable. When did the Army go so pussy!!??  Untill last night I never heard of the "no phyiscal punishment rule"   Hell I think phyiscal punishment need to be stepped up and "wall-to-wall" councelling needs to be brought back.

I got sent to "delta co" for a weekend for screwing up.
Delta was 48 + hours of  "physical training"
By the end of the weekend you were toast.
I don't care what shape you thought you were in by the end of that weekend you were fucked , every muscle in your body that could hurt did hurt..
Did I deserve it?
Yes and I paid what I owed.
Fucking brass like those assholes will kill the fighting force of America

don't get officers involved in NCO business.  Lesson learned.  (Officer -and former NCO.)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm not against punitive PT but I honestly don't believe that it is effective. In the military mistakes should be painful lessons. Better to learn your lessons in sweat than blood. I agree with that in theory, but the reality is that for most, "smoking" is a joke. I did my growing up in the Marine Corps and I don't think I ever saw anyone outside of entry level training made to do any sort of punitive PT, and discipline over there was tighter than anything I have yet experienced in the Army. I can't recall a single time since I entered the Army where smoking someone actually seemed to make an impact.

I have.  For the most part you are correct but there are instances where it is effective.  I have run into soldiers that didn't give a damn about UCMJ, but half an hour of PT w/ at 0'dark thirty straightened them out for a while.  

More often than not though the situation plays out like this.  NCO and JR Enlisted work closely for quit a while and as such the Junior enlisted tends to get too relaxed around them.  They tend to get insubordinate or disrespectful after a while and forget their role.  A quick smoke session can bring things right back into alignment without the involvement of UCMJ and the CoC.  Just reminds everyone of their place in the pecking order, no harm, no foul.  The PT really has nothing to do with the leason that they are learning.  The point is that its stupid but they have to do it because a superior told them so.  Thats the same reason you do most the stupid shit you do in basic.  They (Drill SGT) really dont give a damn about the pine cones ytour picking up.  They are teaching you that orders are orders and they need to be followed without any bullshit.  In a garrison envirement it seems dumb.  In combat it saves lives.

Quoted: Damn i thought you where talking about wall to wall counseling,  lol I got smoked so many times it wasnt funny, lol we got smoked in front of the battalion formation one time :)) It has been a little while since I was in the old Army. i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/scottarmstrong/bdufob.jpg Im on the bottom right.

Hey man - just cause you were in when we wore BDUs, black boots, and rolled our sleeves doesn't mean that you get to declare it "Old Army".  Damnit, I'm not old, so get off my lawn and turn that frickin' music down!!

Quoted: Semantics - learn them. You were doing corrective training. Only commanders have legal authority to punish a Soldier. This would be no different than if a cop on the street decided to "punish" a pedestrian for jaywalking.   The difference is, cops have no authority to train non-cops.  NCOs do have that authority and responsibility to train soldiers.  The similarity is, either person taking punishment in his own hands will get not only himself, but his entire chain of command in seriously hot water - and violate numerous laws regarding due process. Now drive on and learn to keep a lower profile.

Every time I start to get down on the Army, I read one of your posts and I have my faith restored. Thank you.

Quoted: I've run the gamut from getting smoked to smoking the everlovin' shit out of a private. I grew up in the Ranger Battalions of the late 80's. All we did was PT, go to the field, and smoke privates. Looking back on it, and being a senior NCO, now, I will say that I rarely see a "permanent" change in behavior as a result of a physical punishment. PT is good for shock value and building some esprit de corps, but real change comes from leadership, mentoring, and hitting a kid where it hurts: take away his time and his money[/b]. That's the real killer.

This. There is a definite lack of respect for NCO's in the Army today. That is one of the reasons, IMO, why we moved away from "wall to wall counseling" and "corrective training" and went to counselings/UCMJ/Article 15 for everything. PT may be free, but you take a SM's time and money and they get the point fairly quickly.

It stems from the recent policy of promoting people to E5 and above WAY to early. It seems that, once a Joe reaches time in grade/time in service, they are sent to the board right away with little to no consideration as to whether or not they are ready to be an NCO. When I was a PFC, I was the biggest smartass in the company. It resulted in my squad leader and I not getting along at all, and several people making their Spec-4 earlier than I, even though they had less time in service than me. It was a wake-up call of sorts, as I quickly learned to tone it down a bit. I got my E-4 on time, and went to the promotion board six months later, which shows that I turned my act around a great deal as I still had the same COC who knew how I was. I have spent the last two years in an E-6 position, and I have learned a great deal about being an NCO, as a large part of my job involves correcting individuals' work, some of whom outrank me. However, we have other NCOs' who just look at it as extra money in the bank...they don't know their job, they don't know how to be an NCO, and they don't care about the Soldiers that they are in charge of. They spend most of their time on a power trip because someone along the line was too scared to say "no, that person is not ready to be an NCO, let's wait a month or two and see if they straighten out".

Fortunately, in my unit we are still allowed to do "on the spot corrections". I actually had to introduce a "pushups for paperwork errors" in one of the shops as a direct result of an hour of inspecting repaired equipment turned into an eight-hour ordeal.


FM 20-100* FTW!!!






*wall-to-wall counseling

Is NOT pleased.  

He would probably slap the piss out of your regimental and battalion commanders.

Quoted: While I've seen "PT punishment" go overboard before, if it came down to getting smoked or an Article 15, I'd rather get smoked, and I'd be surprised if anyone disagreed.

This + 87

Quoted: Last night while working I made a minor mistake and my Sgt. was making me do iron mikes and low crawls as punishment.  While doing this a Brigadier General, my Brigade Commander, and my Battalion Commander happen to walk by and see this.   The General asks what is going on and is informed.  He then informs my Sgt that "This is not the Army of 20 years ago.  We don't do physical punishment, you do UCMJ" So 45 minutes later my Sgt and I (separately) are in front of the Battalion Commander, Command Sergeant Major, Company Commander, and First Sergeant giving the whole series of events. My Sgt is informed that he is never to smoke a soldier for a mistake again and is to inform all the Sgt's in the platoon that they are not to as well. When the BC asked me what I thought I said " I made a mistake and was getting punished, I deserved it.  The BC found it nice that i accepted responsibility but found it "extreemly disturbing" that i thought the smoking was acceptable. When did the Army go so pussy!!??  Untill last night I never heard of the "no phyiscal punishment rule"   Hell I think phyiscal punishment need to be stepped up and "wall-to-wall" councelling needs to be brought back.

Well put troopie!  When I was a dumbfuck private I got my balls smoked off on a regular basis everyone from my PSG to the Bde CSMAJ and even my fucking XO smoked me for my various and sordid fuckups, I even had a wall to wall session.  The result: I became a fucking manimal-the high and tight having offspring of technoviking and chuck norris!  Of course this was in the ROK and there isn't much to do but play soldier, drink, and buy pussy.  

Fast forward to Ft. Hood TX and the 1st kevlar div; I was smoking one of my soldiers in the conveniently located vollyball pit in front of the 1/9 barracks.  Some 1SG from another Bn comes by and asks me what I'm doing-I reply "just a little corrective training 1SG"  he gives me the stink eye and charlie mikes.... but that was the begining of the de-balling of the Army.  I thought it was just the cav but I guess not...

Good on you for understanding the reasons for your smoke session, its just a shame you won't be able to pass along the lessons.

Now...beat your face jackoff!

Quoted: www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Confederate_Generals/General_George_Patton.jpg Is NOT pleased.   He would probably slap the piss out of your regimental and battalion commanders.

For all his excellent attributes, he had some really awful ones as well. Let us not forget this.

Quoted: www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Confederate_Generals/General_George_Patton.jpg Is NOT pleased.   He would probably slap the piss out of your regimental and battalion commanders.

Slapping is probably what kept him from getting Mark Clark's job.

When I was stationed on an Army base (1996), other Marines and I couldn't believe what the Army called getting "smoked".  It seemed to have more to do with humiliation than any sort of corrective action.  If we f'd up, we'd expect to take a good hit, really f'd up and some private "wall to wall counseling".  The soldiers seemed to think public humiliation was appropriate.

Semper Fi

This is a professional all volunteer military. Professionals don't act like high school kids, professionals do paperwork. When unprofessional Soldiers can't play the game and follow the rules, professionals assist them with finding a new occupation. Besides that, some people like to take things way too far, because they're a badass <insert branch> <insert rank>. It's all fun and games until a 15-6 gets started. Then, professionals do paperwork...

During the Revolutionary War, General Washington issued instructions to his commanders to the effect that corporal punishment (i.e., flogging) was old fashioned and he discouraged it in the Continental Army.

The trend has been away from physical discipline from that time on.

Inducing physical stress during training is another matter entirely, which has different purposes than punishment.