User Panel
Posted: 12/21/2005 11:17:51 AM EDT
www.washtimes.com/national/20051221-121224-6972r.htm
___________________- To pray -- or not to pray -- in Jesus' name is the question plaguing an increasing number of U.S. military chaplains, one of whom began a multiday hunger strike outside the White House yesterday. "I am a Navy chaplain being fired because I pray in Jesus' name," said Navy Lt. Gordon Klingenschmitt, who will be holding 6 p.m. prayer vigils daily in Lafayette Park. The hunger strike is intended to persuade President Bush to issue an executive order allowing military chaplains to pray according to their individual faith traditions. The American Center for Law and Justice has gathered 173,000 signatures on a petition seeking an executive order. Seventy-three members of Congress have joined the request, saying in an Oct. 25 letter to the president, "In all branches of the military, it is becoming increasingly difficult for Christian chaplains to use the name of Jesus when praying." About 80 percent of U.S. troops are Christian, the legislators wrote, adding that military "censorship" of chaplains' prayers disenfranchises "hundreds of thousands of Christian soldiers in the military who look to their chaplains for comfort, inspiration and support." Official military policy allows any sort of prayer, but Lt. Klingenschmitt says that in reality, evangelical Protestant prayers are censored. He cites his training at the Navy Chaplains School in Newport, R.I., where "they have clipboards and evaluators who evaluate your prayers, and they praise you if you pray just to God," he said. "But if you pray in Jesus' name, they counsel you." Muslim, Jewish and Roman Catholic chaplains are likewise told not to pray in the name of Allah, in Hebrew or in the name of the Trinity, he added. But the Rev. Billy Baugham, executive director of the Greenville, S.C.-based International Conference of Evangelical Chaplain Endorsers, says restrictions on other religious expressions have "yet to be tested." "No Islamic chaplain has been refused to pray in the name of Allah, as far as we know. Neither has a rabbi been rebuked for making references to Hanukkah, and no Catholic priest has been rebuked for referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary." The Navy allows chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus Christ, Allah or any other deity during chapel services, spokeswoman Lt. Erin Bailey said. At other public events, "Navy chaplains are encouraged to be sensitive to the needs of all those present," she said, "and may decline an invitation to pray if not able to do so for conscience reasons." Lt. Klingenschmitt has not been formally punished, she added, and there are no plans to take him off active duty. However, the lieutenant contends that he may lose his job next month and be evicted from military housing. He says he got in hot water during the summer of 2004 while aboard the USS Anzio for preaching an evangelistic sermon at the funeral of a Catholic sailor in a base chapel. The lieutenant said he was reprimanded by two senior chaplains and, in March, sent ashore to Norfolk. Lt. Klingenschmitt also has fought at other times for the religious rights of non-Christians, having backed a Jewish sailor's bid to get kosher meals and sought to include a Muslim seaman in the rotation of sailors offering the ship's nightly closing prayer. The lieutenant is not alone in fighting to pray to Jesus. The Navy is facing two lawsuits, filed in 1999 and 2000, by 50 Christian chaplains, saying the Navy discriminates against evangelical and Pentecostal clerics. Mr. Baugham said the 350 chaplains he oversees are concerned about a new set of guidelines issued in August after complaints about Christian evangelism at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. The Air Force guidelines allow "a brief, nonsectarian prayer" during military ceremonies "to add a heightened sense of seriousness or solemnity, not to advance specific religious beliefs." "So, to what deity do you address your prayer to?" Mr. Baugham asked. "No one knows. And who gets to write the prayers? Once the government becomes the approving authority, the poor chaplain is forced to be an agent of the state." Mr. Baugham said he had "just got a call from an Army chaplain in Iraq who says he'd be hammered if he used Jesus' name. Chaplains are scared to death. They must clear their prayers with their commanders, they can mention Jesus' name at chapel services, but not outside that context." ____________________ So first its no longer Merry Christmas, its Happy Holidays. Its no longer a Christmas Tree, its now a Holiday Tree. Next it will no longer be a Minora but a Holiday Candle holder. And apparently its no longer Jesus Christs' birthday. It will soon be lil Jessie's Birthday. |
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This was expected. I read the book and know who wins in the end. I have no worries.
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Well, on the red text they should, imo, try to be nondenominational at public events where you'll get a mix.
When I first read the article I thought the guy might just out there, but found out he's made efforts to help out members of every faith, so I'm tempted to call him legit. |
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This nation has done a complete 180 on almost every principle that led to it's founding.
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Just for clarification; nondenominational doesn't span multiple religions. A Christian nondenominational public event would be cool and since they are all Christian the chaplan should be able to pray in the name of Jesus. If its a Muslim event they should pray in the name of Allah, etc... They should be able to pray to what ever deity or saviour according to their faith. Shok |
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Thats because people are getting smarter and thinking for themselves. |
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In the span on one generation. Go Boomers. |
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+1 |
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Of course. But if the Chaplin is speaking to, say, an entire unit, that might have Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc together he should probably stick to stuff that binds them all together, rather than differences. |
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No, it's because they are letting the ACLU and college professors who have never been off campus do their thinking for them. |
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So now.....I let the ACLU and college professors who've never been off campus do my thinking for me? Even though every college professor I've had, has been conservative? Weird. |
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NO MORE EXECUTIVE ORDERS! if getting executive orders becomes the norm to ensure our freedoms outlined and secured in the bill or rights, we are screwed. what unalienable rights are next? "excuse me mr. president, could you write me an executive order bathroom pass?" take those fucks to court. have people forgot the part that says..."or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?you hire a chaplain that is an evengelical..... get ready to sing "just as i am" a million times,run to the altar, and then take a quick bath. if you are offended by that notion, dont go to the fucking service.
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It was right the first time, thanks. |
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You know tyman, if you want to believe that there is no God, fine with me. But don't make the mistake of believing that your beliefs make you "smarter" than those of us that are Christians. We can disagree on theological issues without insulting each other. |
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Who said I didnt believe in God? Your first mistake. I dont make the mistake of believing that m beliefs make me smarter than "Those that are Christians". Mistake two. Who is disagreeing on anything? I merely said that people are getting smarter and thinking for themselves nowadays. This includes: whether or not they want to believe in God and/or higher powers. They arent just blindly following what their parents think/do and what the Church says/does. |
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Sorry, Lordtrader, but this thread is a dupe!
Duped Thread You should know better than posting anything about Jesus in anywhere other than in the Religion Forum. Eric The(Uh-huh)Hun |
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In this case, an EO is just the ticket... The President (commander in chief) could resolve this without the time/money of a court battle by telling the Navy where they can stick their policy... No different than some Admiral changing the policy, just a lot higher level... P.S. This Chaplain was on the Hannity show with this issue tonight... |
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I hate it when people tease! Give us a hint!! Does Jesus win in the end? Do the Jews? How do freethinking folks such as myself fare? Do I get a couple virgins and a 6-pack at least? Do tell. |
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You are neither hot nor cold but are lukewarm, and because you are neither hot nor cold I will spew you from my mouth.
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Is that some gay thing? |
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Its not the "freethinking" part that gets you into trouble, its the rejecting Jesus part. |
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I don't reject Jesus. I think he was a really ok guy. I'd listen to his message, if it weren't carried by Christians. I happen not to trust humans as to questions of God. Jesus, if he's as cool as I imagine he would be, would think I'm pretty freethinking for doing so. |
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What about trusting God? Wouldn't a loving God want to give some kind of guidance to his people on earth? |
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People were A LOT smarter one hundred years ago, and two hundred years ago. The entrance exam to the college I attended, in 1903, required translating the book of John from the original greek. Are you saying that we are smarter than Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, etc? You have A LOT to learn. |
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I trust God. I know whatever God is, he would not put his message in such a shitty, corruptable vessel and expect that message to reach all of his domain untainted. I simply don't trust people. People wrote the Bible, people preach, people open churches, sin, lie, swindle, promise afterlife for certain actions, hell for others. People cannot be trusted to carry the message of God, and I know for me that God doesn't use people to speak. When I was in search of answers, I talked to God, and he did not lead me to the Bible. In fact, every fiber of my being pushed me away from people who claim that ONE WAY, and ONLY THAT WAY, leads to heaven. As it turns out, the only comfort I've ever really felt spiritually comes from accepting that I was not designed to know his plan, or his expectations. I was only to live well. Jesus knows my number, it's in the book. God does too, he's got my ear anytime. The rest of the world gets the answering machine, and I seldom call back. |
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Military Chaplains tread a fine line in trying to serve the basic religious needs of everyone in uniform. As for the individual faith traditions thing and praying in Jesus' name, I can see where that MIGHT cause a problem in certain uses. When I was in Alabama in September, there was one military member who during the public prayer she led started and ended every sentence during the 10 minute prayer with a loud, boisterous "Father Jesus". It was distracting to the content of the actual prayer, but we were told afterwards that thats standard praying technique among Black Southern Baptists. It had almost the entire military audience rolling their eyes afterwards. It would be one thing to invoke Jesus' name in the prayer introduction, but to go on and on about "Father Jesus" during the whole prayer...well, after September, I can understand where that CAN be overdone. |
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I posted about this a few days back with a link to a site providing a petition against this but most everyone just posted the BS flag.
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1. 200 years ago, not many "civilized" people could point to South America on a map and know what it was. 200 years ago, no one even knew what DNA was. 200 years ago, people still fought for God. 2. I'm saying that we are a lot more knowledgeable of the world around us and of science. Some people dont blindly follow the Church anymore like they did so wholeheartedly back then. Dont forget, the Church also helped excommunicate one of the greatest thinkers of this planet....and held Witch Trials. How smart is that? |
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True. -HS |
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Just one more step to making offending anyone for any reason against the law.
When that day comes, a lot of us on this site are going to be in deep shit. |
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you know, it ain't the "jesus" part of these protestant religions the navy is concerned with, it's the waving snakes about willy-nilly that freaks them out!
seriously though, does anyone in the .mil have any personal experience with this censorship??? catholics pray to jeebus too and i've NEVER seen a christian chaplain NOT mention our invisible friend freely...and all the marcor's chaplains are squids! there's something screwy about that story. |
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coincidentally, i was watching this show on mhz (kind of an international pbs) and they had this story about christianity in communist cuba. it's funny how jesus ISN'T passe when a dictator's boot is on your neck telling you there is no god.
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Oh the irony. You object to Christianity (and any other religion) because it claims to know the truth about God, exclusive of everyone else, yet you believe that God has personally told you the REAL truth, and that it is different from what every other religion has taught. Your guilty of the same thing of which you complain. But the real fallacy of your position is that you put a blind faith in yourself. What you "feel" about God is apparently ipso facto the truth. The problem with this position is that you are as fallable and as fallen as all those Christians you object to. Religion, when broken down to its core, is nothing more than an attempt to learn about the nature of God, and pass on the views of those who were held to be wise in the nature of Him. Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon, and Daniel were all closer to God than I. Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the other Apostles were all closer to God than I. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, and John Calvin were all closer to God than I. Chrisitianity has preserved the views of these great men on God, and their teachings on what He requires of us. For that, I am eternally grateful because without the guidance of these wise men, I know that I would be lost in this world. |
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It doesn't work that way. if Jesus was 'an OK guy', then He was lying about being the Son of God - in which case He wouldn't have been OK at all, but, rather, a no-good liar. So, either Jesus was a no-good liar (which I can accept) or the Son of God. Anything in-between is just play-nice BS to avoid the obvious. |
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IN many ways,w e ARE smarter than people back then. I don't know what school you attended(ed), but i could see where in some courses of study such as religious schools, a knowledge of classical languages was considered essential because of the general subject matter being studied. |
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I think the more practical term here would not be that people were smarter back then so much as they were more practical, they lived in a hard world and learned hard lessons first hand and they didnt have the cushy society that we have these days. A lot more was required back then and it made for in some ways a purer society. But there were bad apples then and there are bad apples now.
There is not time in history where we can say that mankind was perfect. For every bit of religious enlightenment and those that follow the peaceful principles of Christ you have those that witch hunt and believe that they are doing God a favor by killing 'heritics'. For every group that discovers more parts of the intricacies of our universe, there are groups that use these very intricate things to say that there is no God and that we all came to be here by accident. There always have been and will always be people that twist God's word to their own purposes, and those that deny that God exists and unfortunately now in this PC world we live in we have the pussies that say you cant mention Jesus because that might offend someone but will call you a bigot if you try to put the restriction on someone mentioning allah or buddah. They will tell you that there is no place for Jesus in society anywhere but if you tell them that you dont want to hear about other gods or other faiths they will tell you to be more tolerant and 'celebrate diversity' Its no suprise, all of this was fortold by Christ himself. So it is actually in some way a comfort when it happens. I cant really explain that, but it is, because you know what was said is being fullfilled and it is just one more step toward going home. |
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