Posted: 2/15/2009 5:05:59 AM EDT
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This is a question and aimed at Air Carrier as well as Biz Jet and other crew aircraft operators.
Regarding things like flying into a flock of birds or landing on another aircraft that is in position and hold… Doesn't anyone actually look out the window? Depending on backdrop I can usually spot a flock of geese at 1 mile or so – keep in mind the recent NY encounter was climbing so ground clutter was not a factor. Likewise on final at night I take a few seconds and stare at the runway by thirds. I am looking for a dim position light or a dark shadow a lighter area or any that might indicate I will be sharing the runway with something else. How can you not see another aircraft sitting on or moving on the runway if you can see the full length? Now the birds can be a little harder but when they are in a flock? |
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In today's modern/high-tech cockpits that is increasingly becoming a problem. It is entirely possible to fly most modern A/C including GA from point A to B without ever looking out side. There are voices/noises (TCAS, GrnProx, Auto-pilot, A/C config, Alt-alert, radios, intercom, cabin phone, flap warning horn, gear horn, overspeed clacker, etc) and displays to distract pilots. It is very easy to get consumed in the operation and programing (coon-fingering) of all these "G-whiz" appliances and forget to look out the window.
I have, in 25,000 + hours, hit many birds. I have only hit a few that I saw. The rest were only heard on impact or smelled when they came through the A/C pack. At 320/350 kias you don't have much time to see and avoid something the size of a bird, even at 250 kias you rarely have time to avoid birds unless you see them at a considerable distance. Flying low level routes in a C130 was like playing dodgeball. I once flew through a huge flock of small birds doing AG flying. They flushed out of the field right in front of me. It required immediate landing because the cowling inlets were blocked by all the smoldering carcasses and the windshield completely covered in blood, guts and feathers. Guts were fluttering in the slipstream from the spraybooms, struts and landing gear, an unbelievable mess. Ducks and geese are easier to see when they are not at your same altitude. They don't always contrast well against a cloud base when above either. |
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This is a question and aimed at Air Carrier as well as Biz Jet and other crew aircraft operators. Regarding things like flying into a flock of birds or landing on another aircraft that is in position and hold… Doesn't anyone actually look out the window? Depending on backdrop I can usually spot a flock of geese at 1 mile or so – keep in mind the recent NY encounter was climbing so ground clutter was not a factor. Likewise on final at night I take a few seconds and stare at the runway by thirds. I am looking for a dim position light or a dark shadow a lighter area or any that might indicate I will be sharing the runway with something else. How can you not see another aircraft sitting on or moving on the runway if you can see the full length? Now the birds can be a little harder but when they are in a flock? What are you flying? At jet speeds you usually don't have time to execute a "dodge" maneuver, nor do you know if you might be turning into their path. I do think a lot of pilots rely on the gizmo's and don't look outside. I don't want to hit another plane, its just that simple. |
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As said above, there is just not enough time to maneuver to avoid something that size. I see three or four silver party balloons go by a year. They are abeam the wingtip before I can do much about it.
Interesting fact...I smashed a big bug on the windshield at 24,000 feet over Atlanta once... 
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| I see birds all the time, flocks too. Even if they appear directly in front of us, I won't / have never taken evasive action. You can't tell whether you're going to drill 'em or miss by a large margin until a half second before they pass. It's like swerving on the freeway for a squirrel - it doesn't change the odds. |
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As said above, there is just not enough time to maneuver to avoid something that size. I see three or four silver party balloons go by a year. They are abeam the wingtip before I can do much about it. Interesting fact...I smashed a big bug on the windshield at 24,000 feet over Atlanta once...
Monarch butterflies have been documented as high as FL290. |
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As said above, there is just not enough time to maneuver to avoid something that size. I see three or four silver party balloons go by a year. They are abeam the wingtip before I can do much about it. Interesting fact...I smashed a big bug on the windshield at 24,000 feet over Atlanta once...
Monarch butterflies have been documented as high as FL290. I had a spider as a passenger on my left-side strut from S36 - KPLU - S36 with several touch-and-goes and about 115 KIAS in between. I'm sure he had the ride of his life! |
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Used to be my favorite gate call.... bird strike. 
Grab the lowest seniority guy, some denatured alcohol, plastic scrapers and rags......it's "go time"!!!!!!  The AF makes you collect the parts and send them to the Smithsonian to be identified... Spooky Most of the bird strikes I’ve seen, simply left a bloody, gooey smear behind. Not much to “send away”. I did respond to a gate call once where a bird hit the landing gear on final. He fell down into the brake, and from there got tore up quite a bit on landing. There were a few recognizable pieces there, and it smelled good to sizzling on the hot brake assembly. 
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Used to be my favorite gate call.... bird strike.
Grab the lowest seniority guy, some denatured alcohol, plastic scrapers and rags......it's "go time"!!!!!! The AF makes you collect the parts and send them to the Smithsonian to be identified... Spooky Most of the bird strikes I’ve seen, simply left a bloody, gooey smear behind. Not much to “send away”. I did respond to a gate call once where a bird hit the landing gear on final. He fell down into the brake, and from there got tore up quite a bit on landing. There were a few recognizable pieces there, and it smelled good to sizzling on the hot brake assembly. On two seperate occasions that I recall at my former employeer we had birdstrike on short final with very large birds that resulted in the bird debris ending up in the Captains lap and feet. The birds penetrated the radome, pressure bulkhead and came between the rudder pedals on the left side. The A/C was Boeing 737-200. |
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Keep in mind this is a discussion.
Some seem to be bent on making lame excuses. For birds and other things that go bump and leave smoking craters: How fast do you think a jet flies? Below 10,000, 250K… Yes you can encounter things above FL10 but it is not normally a problem. So, 250K translates into 416 feet per second or: 12 seconds to cover 1 SM – can you doge something if I give you 12 seconds to do it in. Cockpit Workload? Probably Cause – Failure to see and avoid… But I don't recall seeing the NTSB ever apply extra credit for good completion of Check Lists
No one has addressed not seeing another airplane sitting on a runway??? |
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On two seperate occasions that I recall at my former employer we had birdstrike on short final with very large birds that resulted in the bird debris ending up in the Captains lap and feet. The birds penetrated the radome, pressure bulkhead and came between the rudder pedals on the left side. The A/C was Boeing 737-200. This happened at Horizon Airlines too, one of my former employers. |
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Keep in mind this is a discussion. Some seem to be bent on making lame excuses. For birds and other things that go bump and leave smoking craters: How fast do you think a jet flies? Below 10,000, 250K… Yes you can encounter things above FL10 but it is not normally a problem. So, 250K translates into 416 feet per second or: 12 seconds to cover 1 SM – can you doge something if I give you 12 seconds to do it in. Cockpit Workload? Probably Cause – Failure to see and avoid… But I don't recall seeing the NTSB ever apply extra credit for good completion of Check Lists
No one has addressed not seeing another airplane sitting on a runway??? there is a slight flaw in your theory, you usually don't see birds a mile away, most of the time it is a few hundred feet before you see them. |
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there is a slight flaw in your theory, you usually don't see birds a mile away, most of the time it is a few hundred feet before you see them. Nothing wrong with my throry but if you can't spot a flock of geese until a few hunderd feet, you can't pass a Class 3 let alone a Class 1... Now you can paint a set of conditions where that would be true but what is the point with exceptions... |
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there is a slight flaw in your theory, you usually don't see birds a mile away, most of the time it is a few hundred feet before you see them. Nothing wrong with my throry but if you can't spot a flock of geese until a few hunderd feet, you can't pass a Class 3 let alone a Class 1... Now you can paint a set of conditions where that would be true but what is the point with exceptions... Well, there is something wrong with your "throry". If you have never sat in the chair you don't know jack shit. That's whats wrong with your "throry". You don't have any turbojet time do you? How much 152 time do you have? Paid my dues with a gaggle of buzzards thermalling. Nailed one of about 20. Didn't see them til impact. Boss was pissed off because a leading edge of a SA-227 cost $$ and 3 days loss of use. But it happens. Moving at 250kts is different than 85kts. WJ |
If I were smart enough to find those smilies rolling on the floor and laughing I would insert them right here...
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there is a slight flaw in your theory, you usually don't see birds a mile away, most of the time it is a few hundred feet before you see them. Nothing wrong with my throry but if you can't spot a flock of geese until a few hunderd feet, you can't pass a Class 3 let alone a Class 1... Now you can paint a set of conditions where that would be true but what is the point with exceptions... Well, there is something wrong with your "throry". If you have never sat in the chair you don't know jack shit. That's whats wrong with your "throry". You don't have any turbojet time do you? How much 152 time do you have? Paid my dues with a gaggle of buzzards thermalling. Nailed one of about 20. Didn't see them til impact. Boss was pissed off because a leading edge of a SA-227 cost $$ and 3 days loss of use. But it happens. Moving at 250kts is different than 85kts. WJ |
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Again, the plane is climbing...so a lot of possible contacts are going to be at an angle where they are below the nose... Quoted: On two seperate occasions that I recall at my former employeer we had birdstrike on short final with very large birds that resulted in the bird debris ending up in the Captains lap and feet. The birds penetrated the radome, pressure bulkhead and came between the rudder pedals on the left side. The A/C was Boeing 737-200. |
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there is a slight flaw in your theory, you usually don't see birds a mile away, most of the time it is a few hundred feet before you see them. Nothing wrong with my throry but if you can't spot a flock of geese until a few hunderd feet, you can't pass a Class 3 let alone a Class 1... Now you can paint a set of conditions where that would be true but what is the point with exceptions... Well, there is something wrong with your "throry". If you have never sat in the chair you don't know jack shit. That's whats wrong with your "throry". You don't have any turbojet time do you? How much 152 time do you have? Paid my dues with a gaggle of buzzards thermalling. Nailed one of about 20. Didn't see them til impact. Boss was pissed off because a leading edge of a SA-227 cost $$ and 3 days loss of use. But it happens. Moving at 250kts is different than 85kts. WJ Is that the best you got to offer???  Somehow I do not feel challenged…
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Keep in mind this is a discussion. Some seem to be bent on making lame excuses. For birds and other things that go bump and leave smoking craters: How fast do you think a jet flies? Below 10,000, 250K… Yes you can encounter things above FL10 but it is not normally a problem. So, 250K translates into 416 feet per second or: 12 seconds to cover 1 SM – can you doge something if I give you 12 seconds to do it in. Cockpit Workload? Probably Cause – Failure to see and avoid… But I don't recall seeing the NTSB ever apply extra credit for good completion of Check Lists
No one has addressed not seeing another airplane sitting on a runway??? Parrot's been asked what he flies and has yet to answer... I only have about 1100+ hours, 230+ in Cessna 152/172. The rest is multi-engine jet time.
When is the last time a plane landing has hit a plane on the runway? We all remember the LAX incident years ago, which was at night. Is this really a "growing" problem these days? I don't remember the last time a runway incursion resulted in a mishap. Oh, about the checklist thing, yeah. There's a reason they exist, to use them! You try and run your checklist from memory and stupid things happen. That's what dictates following your checklist. With that said heads down time at low altitude is not full time staring at a checklist. On departures heads down time is flying your speed schedule, doing the noise abatement procedures, flying the departure procedure (changing navaids, dialing in new courses, meeting altitude restrictions, etc), maybe looking out for that traffic that ATC has called out to you, and of course, flying your jet. On approach there's definitely a lot more time to look outside, which is usually what's done. How many bird strikes have I experienced? I don't know, maybe 10. How many of those birds were seen before impact? Maybe 2. I've had quite a few close calls, but usually its too late by the time you see them to even do anything about it. |
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I’d have to say, on a very good portion of the “bird strike” gate calls I’ve went on, the crew never even knew they hit a bird.
Most of the time it wasn’t known until the FO did his walk around after arrival at the gate. It was usually then that he/she would spot that typical red blood and feather smear on the leading edge of a wing and make the call to Mtx Control. On rare occasions a bird would hit the radome or windscreen, those of course were obvious. On a few rarer occasions it was simply reported as a possible bird strike. A bird was seen in flight past the cockpit, accompanied by a “thud” on the side of the aircraft. But from a maintenance stand point, we were never pissed at the pilots for calling in a bird strike. As stated above, it’s not like you can dodge the lil’ suckers in flight. It happens so fast, it’s over before you even really know what happened. |
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I had a spider as a passenger on my left-side strut from S36 - KPLU - S36 with several touch-and-goes and about 115 KIAS in between. I'm sure he had the ride of his life! I always wondered about that. I’ve been in the gear well a few times, changing a tire or brake, only to have a spider come dropping down on me. I always wondered if they had been flying around the whole time, or just happened up there while the aircraft was sitting on the ground. 
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One other thing I just thought of. I use to fly a lot of podunk airports and bird flocks were easier to see against the green background. Flying into large cities it became much harder. The "texture" of the land was varied so that it camouflaged things really well. It was much harder to see anything, including those damn mustard billboard 737s around LUV. And Quib, I call bullshit. I took so much flak from the evil shitbreathing foul did I mention evil Mx guys that I don't believe for a minute you gave the poor pilot's some slack. It's in you all's licences or something I'm just sure. WJ
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And Quib, I call bullshit. I took so much flak from the evil shitbreathing foul did I mention evil Mx guys that I don't believe for a minute you gave the poor pilot's some slack. It's in you all's licences or something I'm just sure. WJWell, I have a lil’ sympathy for you guys, since flying as a career was my original intention and my father wanted so bad that I NOT follow in his foot steps. But then I realized, shit, the first astronaut was a monkey, why would I want to be associated with a pack of monkeys. A monkey can fly, but he can’t fix em’. So I chose Mtx instead. 
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there is a slight flaw in your theory, you usually don't see birds a mile away, most of the time it is a few hundred feet before you see them. Nothing wrong with my throry but if you can't spot a flock of geese until a few hunderd feet, you can't pass a Class 3 let alone a Class 1... Now you can paint a set of conditions where that would be true but what is the point with exceptions... Well, there is something wrong with your "throry". If you have never sat in the chair you don't know jack shit. That's whats wrong with your "throry". You don't have any turbojet time do you? How much 152 time do you have? Paid my dues with a gaggle of buzzards thermalling. Nailed one of about 20. Didn't see them til impact. Boss was pissed off because a leading edge of a SA-227 cost $$ and 3 days loss of use. But it happens. Moving at 250kts is different than 85kts. WJ Is that the best you got to offer??? Somehow I do not feel challenged…
You're not being challenged......shown for your ignorance, yes......challenged, no
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there is a slight flaw in your theory, you usually don't see birds a mile away, most of the time it is a few hundred feet before you see them. Nothing wrong with my throry but if you can't spot a flock of geese until a few hunderd feet, you can't pass a Class 3 let alone a Class 1... Now you can paint a set of conditions where that would be true but what is the point with exceptions... Well, there is something wrong with your "throry". If you have never sat in the chair you don't know jack shit. That's whats wrong with your "throry". You don't have any turbojet time do you? How much 152 time do you have? Paid my dues with a gaggle of buzzards thermalling. Nailed one of about 20. Didn't see them til impact. Boss was pissed off because a leading edge of a SA-227 cost $$ and 3 days loss of use. But it happens. Moving at 250kts is different than 85kts. WJ Is that the best you got to offer??? Somehow I do not feel challenged…
You're not being challenged......shown for your ignorance, yes......challenged, no Well Parrot32... ? |