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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/15/2002 5:39:44 PM EDT
Still thinking about getting an FFL. Even with all the hassles that might entail. I currently am in the construction industry, and while it has served me rather well so far, I would like to start looking into something to do when a get a little older. Something I enjoy. I know that I probably won't make much money at all at first, but I figure that if I start now I might be able to get something serious going after awhile. But all I generally here about getting an FFL is that it isn't worth it. So has anybody here gotten and FFL and done well (relativly speaking)?
Link Posted: 5/15/2002 6:20:48 PM EDT
I had one for 6 years and never even hardly made a penny. I gave it up. I now sell everything that isn't a firearm and life is much better. Cases, knives, cleaning supplies, ammunition, all kinds of neat gear and reloading accessories. Much less hassle, just wait till you go through your first ATF "inspection". Good luck in your endeavor, GPSS [url]www.georgiaprecision.com[/url]
Link Posted: 5/15/2002 6:29:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2002 8:20:38 PM EDT
You claim to be an FFL yet you spread mis information. The ATF can do 1 and 1 only unscheduled inspection of your licensed premisis per year durring your listed business hours. That's it period. Anything more and they need a search warrent just like any other law enf. agency would. If they actually get a search warrent then they want you for more than just doing regular gun business.
Link Posted: 5/15/2002 8:44:50 PM EDT
So the local FFL wins the lottery. When asked what he planned to do with his winnings he replied he intended to "Keep working till the money was gone."
Link Posted: 5/15/2002 8:45:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TommyBrown: You claim to be an FFL yet you spread mis information. The ATF can do 1 and 1 only unscheduled inspection of your licensed premisis per year durring your listed business hours. That's it period. Anything more and they need a search warrent just like any other law enf. agency would. If they actually get a search warrent then they want you for more than just doing regular gun business.
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The word is warrant. BTW - If [b]1 and 1 only[/b] unscheduled visit a year is your idea of fun - go for it!
Link Posted: 5/15/2002 9:03:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 7:00:27 AM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 5/15/2002 9:07:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: So the local FFL wins the lottery. When asked what he planned to do with his winnings he replied he intended to "Keep working till the money was gone."
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One of my personal favorites [:D]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:11:49 AM EDT
Damn guys, you don't paint a pretty picture. Couldn't you just lie to me and tell me how great it is? Seriously though, I'm not sure if I like the idea of the ATF being able to come into my house (since I plan on using my shop as my store front) anytime they want. Even if it is only once a year. Not that I have anything to hide. Just for some reason it doesn't sit right.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:16:49 AM EDT
What does a FFL cost now?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:30:56 AM EDT
I'm thinking about getting a C&R FFL, mostly just to get the dealer discount from Brownells. Would being a "cruffler" give the BATF [carte blanche[/i] to search my house, even though it wouldn't be a "licensed business premise"?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:40:27 AM EDT
I've had my C & R license for a couple of years now. It has definitely been worth it. As far as inspection goes, it is my understanding that BATF can only inspect your collection with reasonable notice and that you have the option of allowing the inspection to take place in your home, or to take your weapons to the appropriate BATF office. I would add that all of my dealings with the BATF (the Atlanta office), have been very cordial and satisfactory. They have seemed to be genuinely interested in being helpful. Hope this helps you.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:58:36 AM EDT
Thanks, KyCruffler. Can you explain a little about how the record keeping works? Suppose, for instance, that you make a private purchase of a non-C&R rifle. Does that have to be recorded in your bound book? Or do you only have to keep records on the the firearms that you use the FFL to buy?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 5:29:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 5:34:59 AM EDT by AR_Lvr]
I've had an FFL for 9 years now and am going to attempt to renew again for 3 years. The BATF has been nothing but wonderful to deal with and have never had any problems. I have had 1 inspection and it was to look at my record keeping skills, accuracy against receipts and how well the 4473 forms were filled out. I don't see how that is invasive as it inspects how well I am following the rules. All questions I've ever had have been answered. All problems have been solved. NICS system has worked 95% of the time for all transactions. I will admit it's not the most friendly phone people I've ever dealt with but not rude just matter of fact. I like the fact of better prices for me and for the few I sell to. I don't try and screw out the local business as I agree they need to be there. I do however have no problem giving someone a deal who has been treated rudely at the local store as most seem to have this poor customer service quality as standard operating procedure. I think it is $300 to start the application now along with background checks, fingerprinting, local occupation licenses and misc. other needs. Renewal is $100. Forgot to add, NO, you won't make much money with this. Unless you sell high volume through a store front or do a lot of shows, it just won't pay out much. Other than that, do it for the love and for yourself. Accessories and such is where you can build some profit but also with high volume. Think of this. If I can get a case of ammo for $75 and they sell for $85 at the shows, how many cases would I need to sell to make it worth my time?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 7:07:45 AM EDT
Actually the fee is only $200 plus the cost of getting two pictures of yourself, to accompany the application, and postage. And yes, it is profittable if you have minimum marketing skills. With a small shop and weekly trips to gun shows you can make a comfortable living. Jake
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 9:15:47 AM EDT
Beekeeper! I tried to email you, but your whole email addy isn't showing up...could you email me or provide your email again?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 9:21:11 AM EDT
Been a FFL for a few years & managed to lose $ each year. GA-Pre is more correct, more margins in non-firearms.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 9:36:35 AM EDT
Hey guys, how much harder is it to become a FFL/SOT so that you can deal in post-ban AW and MG's? Does it cost an arm and a leg? I'm sure there are many more regulations, but generally whats the process to become one? Any info you guys could give me would be great!
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 9:46:06 AM EDT
We just lost another store front in AZ last month. They can't make money on guns. $25.00 transfers aren't going to keep the lights on either. Even reloading supplies are becoming to expensive to ship. They will get us one way or another... [:(]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:05:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR_Lvr: The BATF has been nothing but wonderful to deal with and have never had any problems.
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I just have one thing to say about this: I hope your golden chains fit you well and are not too confining. Despite their good "customer service" the BATF is still an agency which has done terrible things to the American people in a wholly unethical (and less importantly, I guess, UNCONSTITUTIONAL) manner. They merely let you continue to run your business because they feel like it--for now. With that much control over you and your life and death, you're taking an awfully blase attitude towards the whole thing. For anyone on here to wax eloquently about how easy the ATF is to deal with is denying the true reality that tyranny often does not appear threatening. You're the proverbial frog waiting to be boiled in the pot, in other words. You may never have a run-in with the ATF, but if you do, it'll probably be bad for you. I wonder how great you'll talk about their customer service then, eh? The customer service is entirely beside the point since we pay the goddamn government to create these ridiculous laws and regulations where everything is a catch-22 of some kind so some idiot can come on ar15.com and say how great the "customer" service is. We aren't the customers, first off! You must be a cop or a former cop or have had a typical statist job or something along those lines. Tell me I'm dead wrong.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:05:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Thanks, KyCruffler. Can you explain a little about how the record keeping works? Suppose, for instance, that you make a private purchase of a non-C&R rifle. Does that have to be recorded in your bound book? Or do you only have to keep records on the the firearms that you use the FFL to buy?
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The only firearms that you must log are C&R firearms, whether you "use" your license to acquire them or not.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:24:52 AM EDT
I've had a FFL for 20 years and have made little if any money doing it. In fact it has probably cost me money because many of the guns I have I would not have bought if I had not gotten them at dealer prices. For the last 5 years or so all I have done is order stuff for myself, family or close friends. The paperwork isn't too bad if you are not selling much. I've only been inspected once in 20 years and my dealings with ATF have been painless.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 12:26:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuikSilver: Hey guys, how much harder is it to become a FFL/SOT so that you can deal in post-ban AW and MG's? Does it cost an arm and a leg? I'm sure there are many more regulations, but generally whats the process to become one? Any info you guys could give me would be great!
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The additional cost of a SOT is $500.00. But without a LE Demo Letterhead (which you won't get) you will NEVER see a post sample machine gun. Even if you somehow manage a LE purchase order, most companies like H&K will ship directly to the agency. Meaning you will never actually see or touch the guns. In addition most companies like H&K sell directly to the agencies, PDs and as a result you will probably NEVER broker this kind of deal. In addition the profits from LE orders are pathetic. I've sold a few postban restricted AR15s (semi auto only) and the markup to LE customers was about $45.00 per rifle (5%). The government makes more on sales tax.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 12:41:33 PM EDT
SA- Maybe I'm just not understanding this right, but I thought once you were an FFL/SOT, couldn't you do your own MG conversions as dealer samples and buy dealer samples from other class 3 dealers? Thanks for helping me understand all this...
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 12:50:33 PM EDT
Have it, yes it pays, and I will renew. Mine is a mfg. FFL, and does not require hours.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 1:15:44 PM EDT
I've wanted an FFL for years, but have been told it's nigh on to impossible to obtain your license if you DON'T have a store front. Is this correct, or has this loosened at all? Last time I talked to a dealer friend of mine he told me it would be a waste of time unless I was going to open an actual gunstore. So, what's the deal?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 1:17:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuikSilver: SA- Maybe I'm just not understanding this right, but I thought once you were an FFL/SOT, couldn't you do your own MG conversions as dealer samples and buy dealer samples from other class 3 dealers? Thanks for helping me understand all this...
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CLOSE. You need a manufacturers license to build MGs. As a SOT you can buy registered preban sears but that isn't really building as the sear itself constitutes a registered MG. And yes you can buy post samples from other dealers. But 99% of them are not new and very overpriced. The few dealers who have LE demo letterheads make money by selling sample guns to other SOTs who don't have a demo letter at very inflated prices. And of course when your SOT expires you must get rid of post sample guns. You cannot keep them.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 1:22:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By kicker9898: I've wanted an FFL for years, but have been told it's nigh on to impossible to obtain your license if you DON'T have a store front. Is this correct, or has this loosened at all? Last time I talked to a dealer friend of mine he told me it would be a waste of time unless I was going to open an actual gunstore. So, what's the deal?
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Depends where you live. But the Clinton administration set up tons of hoops requiring occupational licenses and code and zoning to get FFLs. If you cannot get your home code and zoned for a "gun dealer" (and in most places you cannot) then your only alternative is a storefront. The code and zone requirement effectively did away with MOST kitchen table gun show dealers from the 80s. This is why 90% of exibitors are now from gun shops and gun shows are little more than gun shop garage sales. Of course this was the original intent of the Clinton administration. Another Clinton era requirement is FFL dealers can no longer just do gun shows. If you state that gun shows will be your primary business you will be denied. So if you can get code and zone permits where you live, you are lucky.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 1:42:00 PM EDT
Shamus Man you live out in the sticks,I dont think you would have to worry about zoneing :) PS: hey man I got your email.Im at work,Ill email you tonight
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 1:46:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By kicker9898: I've wanted an FFL for years, but have been told it's nigh on to impossible to obtain your license if you DON'T have a store front. Is this correct, or has this loosened at all? Last time I talked to a dealer friend of mine he told me it would be a waste of time unless I was going to open an actual gunstore. So, what's the deal?
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Depends where you live. But the Clinton administration set up tons of hoops requiring occupational licenses and code and zoning to get FFLs. If you cannot get your home code and zoned for a "gun dealer" (and in most places you cannot) then your only alternative is a storefront. The code and zone requirement effectively did away with MOST kitchen table gun show dealers from the 80s. This is why 90% of exibitors are now from gun shops and gun shows are little more than gun shop garage sales. Of course this was the original intent of the Clinton administration. Another Clinton era requirement is FFL dealers can no longer just do gun shows. If you state that gun shows will be your primary business you will be denied. So if you can get code and zone permits where you live, you are lucky.
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You're right, all the home FFL's in our area are done. The new law calls for a store front. My mfg is for the property not the building specific regular gun shops. I can have multiple bldgs on both sides of the road. A real help for me to move across the road to a new structure. It required all the code and zoning meetings, but it ended up with being able to have a range as well.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 2:02:51 PM EDT
Cool...so I assume that maybe, just maybe, that if I live out in the sticks in the county, nearest neighbor a mile away, I might be able to get my FFL? I know I need an APP from Atlanta, but is there any way to find out preliminarily what my chances are before applying? Thanks guys, you are a wealth of info, and I appreciate it.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 2:06:33 PM EDT
Depends where you live. But the Clinton administration set up tons of hoops requiring occupational licenses and code and zoning to get FFLs. If you cannot get your home code and zoned for a "gun dealer" (and in most places you cannot) then your only alternative is a storefront. The code and zone requirement effectively did away with MOST kitchen table gun show dealers from the 80s. This is why 90% of exibitors are now from gun shops and gun shows are little more than gun shop garage sales. Of course this was the original intent of the Clinton administration. Another Clinton era requirement is FFL dealers can no longer just do gun shows. If you state that gun shows will be your primary business you will be denied. So if you can get code and zone permits where you live, you are lucky.
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So, do you HAVE to do gun shows at all, is that a requirement, or is it just that you can't JUST do gun shows?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 2:19:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 2:19:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By kicker9898:
Depends where you live. But the Clinton administration set up tons of hoops requiring occupational licenses and code and zoning to get FFLs. If you cannot get your home code and zoned for a "gun dealer" (and in most places you cannot) then your only alternative is a storefront. The code and zone requirement effectively did away with MOST kitchen table gun show dealers from the 80s. This is why 90% of exibitors are now from gun shops and gun shows are little more than gun shop garage sales. Of course this was the original intent of the Clinton administration. Another Clinton era requirement is FFL dealers can no longer just do gun shows. If you state that gun shows will be your primary business you will be denied. So if you can get code and zone permits where you live, you are lucky.
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So, do you HAVE to do gun shows at all, is that a requirement, or is it just that you can't JUST do gun shows?
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No you need not do gun shows at all. But that tends to be the primary source of sales and exposure. Home FFLs cannot have signs etc. on their property. Ans in order to get rid of these pesky "home dealers" ATF decided you cannot do guns hows only. They tried to create a catch 22.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 2:38:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARgon: Have it, yes it pays, and I will renew. Mine is a mfg. FFL, and does not require hours.
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ARgon, could you enlighten me more about your which FFL you have exactly, and what you can or can't do with it? Thanks all for your responses so far. Do any of you with FFL's do the gunshow circuit, or just rely on word of mouth?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:29:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:30:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 3:33:21 PM EDT by DarkHelmet]
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:19:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI:
Originally Posted By ARgon: Have it, yes it pays, and I will renew. Mine is a mfg. FFL, and does not require hours.
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ARgon, could you enlighten me more about your which FFL you have exactly, and what you can or can't do with it? Thanks all for your responses so far. Do any of you with FFL's do the gunshow circuit, or just rely on word of mouth?
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I have a manufacturers License. It is the same as Colt, Smith, or Ruger. I do not, hawever, have the full auto license. I build handguns, and have the license to put in CNC machines and start all from scratch. A buddy of mine has 6 of those and wants to try some things. The only thing is they will need to locate the machines on this 10 acre lot to do so. We could set up and run three shifts, but who wants to go that deep into it. As for other, I can do anything a gun shop does, but do not have to post hours.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:43:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARgon:
Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI:
Originally Posted By ARgon: Have it, yes it pays, and I will renew. Mine is a mfg. FFL, and does not require hours.
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ARgon, could you enlighten me more about your which FFL you have exactly, and what you can or can't do with it? Thanks all for your responses so far. Do any of you with FFL's do the gunshow circuit, or just rely on word of mouth?
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I have a manufacturers License. It is the same as Colt, Smith, or Ruger. I do not, hawever, have the full auto license. I build handguns, and have the license to put in CNC machines and start all from scratch. A buddy of mine has 6 of those and wants to try some things. The only thing is they will need to locate the machines on this 10 acre lot to do so. We could set up and run three shifts, but who wants to go that deep into it. As for other, I can do anything a gun shop does, but do not have to post hours.
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Could you go the manufacturing route without all the heavy machinery? In other words, could you build FAL's, or other such guns that would only require basic tools? And could you also then buy and sell other firearms (ones you didn't manufacture)? It sounds like that may be the way to go. How much more is that license?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 4:48:30 PM EDT
ARgon, what sort of handguns do you manufacture?
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:27:23 AM EDT
Could you go the manufacturing route without all the heavy machinery? In other words, could you build FAL's, or other such guns that would only require basic tools? And could you also then buy and sell other firearms (ones you didn't manufacture)? It sounds like that may be the way to go. How much more is that license?
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You don't need the heavy machinery, under the current mandates, if you put a gun together (ie: buy a reciever and then build from there and sell) you need the mfg license. You can buy and sell whatever as well. You can buy for yourself and log it out as personal, but must keep it a year off the log before you can sell it, or log it back in and sell it formally.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:34:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: ARgon, what sort of handguns do you manufacture?
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Caspian Arms is almost in my back yard (25 miles away). They cnc the slides and frames for me with my company name on the slide and custom serial numbers on the frame. (As example, my son and I have matching gov't and commander 1911's with "named" serial numbers. Some people like their initials and birth date as the serial number. Some like a catchy word that has always meant something. "Tango Down" I custom work Smiths and build 1911s. However I am not looking for business. This is not meant to be an ad. Just answering the question. thanks for asking.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:47:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By trickshot: I just have one thing to say about this: I hope your golden chains fit you well and are not too confining. You must be a cop or a former cop or have had a typical statist job or something along those lines. [red] Tell me I'm dead wrong.[/red]
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I won't say you are dead wrong. I will, however, say you are so full of sh*t your eyes are brown. You may not be, but you sound like a keyboard commando who spouts b.s. about how unconstitutional all this is (which I agree with, BTW), but then have a condescending tone and attitude as though we should all die for nothing in a silly "blaze of glory"--no pun intended to the other dumbass. I have an FFL. I obey the current laws. I am on good terms with the ATF people I have dealt with. I also am politically active to try to change things. Are you? I am a life member of the NRA. Are you? I am a life member of the Illinois State Rifle Association. Are you (in your state)? I call/write my elected officials. Do you? I even push the limits of propriety by talking to my clients while doing my job to try to change the "sheeple" mentality. Do you proselytize daily, risking the goodwill of those you depend upon for your livlihood? You may do some, or most, of these things. I have no way of knowing. I hope you do. If you do not, you are truly lowdown to criticize those who have posted here. I can picture you in a one-man-revolution-against-all-the-unconstitutional tyrants-who-oppress-us-daily. No, wait, I can't either. I doubt if you have the stones. Talk is cheap. Please reveal what you are [b]doing[/b] besides pissing toward others. Good For You!
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I agree with Bee here. I can't say your dead wrong but certainly tilted a little. All I said was that the folks I've dealt with in 9 years have been decent to me. I also follow the rules and have had no issues. Are other things that the organization has done flat out wrong? Hell yes. Is this unconstitutional to have to do the things we have to do to get the products we want to have and even need to have? Yes also. I too write the politicians in order to express my displeasure with all this. That doesn't change the fact that if you want to buy and sell, there are rules that need to be folowed. I do and will follow these rules as long as I want to play the game. If they wrong me for doing right and want to create something to try and nab me, then I would have issues with that. As far as bracelets go, I'm sure it can always be a possibility in todays society. If I do what I'm supposed to, it should be a reduced liability. I willing to accept that risk as part of the business. I have introduced many people to the world of firearms and the fun of it. That has helped our cause and enlightened many. I don't fear anything in that.
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