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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/6/2005 6:11:36 AM EDT
On the way in to my store a few moments ago, and I am listening to the hunting/shooting show on local AM radio. One of the hosts owns a gun store here locally and claimed that an airgun, and the way its recoil impulses, is harder on a scope than a .300WinMag.

He claimed the recoil from an airgun is a drawn out vibration rather than sharp, instant crack of a center or rim fire.

I'm not calling BS, but its on the tip of my toungue.

Thoughts ?
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:12:48 AM EDT
I've heard that before. Dunno if it's true
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:20:16 AM EDT
Don't raise the BS flag, do some reading. A spring engine air gun eats scopes for lunch. Their is recoil in two directions, most scopes are made to handle recoil in one direction only. I have a couple of spring engine air rifles.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:20:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 6:21:23 AM EDT by chrome1]
It's true on spring operated airguns only , pneumatic or C02 guns don't need a
dual damped scope .

From an Airgun optics guide :

Scopes designed for firearms have optics anchored to handle the backward movement .
Recoil in a spring airgun is different than recoil in a firearm in the sense that it isn't only the amount of recoil that matters, but the direction of the recoil as well. Mainsprings cause an airgun to recoil backward and forward while firearms only recoil in a backward direction. It is this two-direction recoil that can cause damage to non-airgun rated scopes.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:24:17 AM EDT
Learn sumpin new everyday.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:26:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:
It's true on spring operated airguns only , pneumatic or C02 guns don't need a
dual damped scope .

From an Airgun optics guide :

Scopes designed for firearms have optics anchored to handle the backward movement .
Recoil in a spring airgun is different than recoil in a firearm in the sense that it isn't only the amount of recoil that matters, but the direction of the recoil as well. Mainsprings cause an airgun to recoil backward and forward while firearms only recoil in a backward direction. It is this two-direction recoil that can cause damage to non-airgun rated scopes.




Does the bolt slamming forward on an Ar15 or M14 not equal recoil in 2 direstions?
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:27:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:28:30 AM EDT
I threw a OK .22 scope that I had used for years on a .22 rifle with no problem on a 1000FPS Gamo pellet gun and the scope took a crap within 50 rounds. I do think that there are different recoil forces at work. [Was on a marlin model 60 for at least 10 years before I put it on the Gamo] I bought a airgun scope and have since put about 2 or 3 K thru it without a problem, or loss of zero. Just my personal 2 cents.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:30:23 AM EDT
IIRC, air rifles recoil FORWARD and not backward...
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:33:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FloridaConfederate:

One of the hosts owns a gun store here locally and claimed that an airgun, and the way its recoil impulses, is harder on a scope than a .300WinMag.






That's what I've heard as well. Since I never owned an airgun scope, I can't say. Kinda makes sense as far as kinetic energy goes but I'm sure as hell no scientist.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:40:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chaos4570:

Originally Posted By chrome1:
It's true on spring operated airguns only , pneumatic or C02 guns don't need a
dual damped scope .

From an Airgun optics guide :

Scopes designed for firearms have optics anchored to handle the backward movement .
Recoil in a spring airgun is different than recoil in a firearm in the sense that it isn't only the amount of recoil that matters, but the direction of the recoil as well. Mainsprings cause an airgun to recoil backward and forward while firearms only recoil in a backward direction. It is this two-direction recoil that can cause damage to non-airgun rated scopes.




Does the bolt slamming forward on an Ar15 or M14 not equal recoil in 2 direstions?



Not even close to the force of the spring recoil on an air rifle.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:40:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chaos4570:

Originally Posted By chrome1:
It's true on spring operated airguns only , pneumatic or C02 guns don't need a
dual damped scope .

From an Airgun optics guide :

Scopes designed for firearms have optics anchored to handle the backward movement .
Recoil in a spring airgun is different than recoil in a firearm in the sense that it isn't only the amount of recoil that matters, but the direction of the recoil as well. Mainsprings cause an airgun to recoil backward and forward while firearms only recoil in a backward direction. It is this two-direction recoil that can cause damage to non-airgun rated scopes.




Does the bolt slamming forward on an Ar15 or M14 not equal recoil in 2 direstions?



Hey I didn't write it .

The section I cut & Pasted was from a scope guide on an Airgun site .
Here is the Link : Airgun

Go argue with them
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:48:50 AM EDT
No shit... A red ryder is worse on a loopy than a Barrett. I've been schooled this morning.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:50:33 AM EDT
I have a Beeman that will kill a regular scope in 10 shots or less. Get the Simmons Airgun scope for $80.00 and be done with it
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:53:26 AM EDT
I've heard this before, and I have heard from people that have lost scopes to airguns. They do make "airgun scopes". I wouldn't use anything else on an airgun.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:54:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:

Originally Posted By chaos4570:

Originally Posted By chrome1:
It's true on spring operated airguns only , pneumatic or C02 guns don't need a
dual damped scope .

From an Airgun optics guide :

Scopes designed for firearms have optics anchored to handle the backward movement .
Recoil in a spring airgun is different than recoil in a firearm in the sense that it isn't only the amount of recoil that matters, but the direction of the recoil as well. Mainsprings cause an airgun to recoil backward and forward while firearms only recoil in a backward direction. It is this two-direction recoil that can cause damage to non-airgun rated scopes.




Does the bolt slamming forward on an Ar15 or M14 not equal recoil in 2 direstions?



Hey I didn't write it .

The section I cut & Pasted was from a scope guide on an Airgun site .
Here is the Link : Airgun

Go argue with them



I aint arguing, just asked a question
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:55:26 AM EDT
It is true.My experiance with spring rifles is that you are better off with a .22 rimfire shooting CB long ammo.Its very quiet and you can shoot the high velocity stuff when you want to.A spring gun will really rattle your brain and after 30 rounds you feel like you have had a good workout.With a .22 you are just getting started.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 6:58:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SgtKiwi:
No shit... A red ryder is worse on a loopy than a Barrett. I've been schooled this morning.



Not a Red Ryder which is a BB gun but an air rifle. Similar principle but like comparing Barry Bonds to some Little Leaguer. The typical springer compresses the air behind a pellet to the degree that it will ignite any petroleum-based oil in the compression chamber. Just like a diesel engine.

Link Posted: 8/6/2005 7:05:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 7:10:34 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Two real possibilities - shock duration or natural frequency

Shock duration -It's probably a LONGER duration shock impulse.


Remember, even you can handle 1000 gees - for a very, very brief period.


Back in the Apollo days a gust of wind caught a capsule right before splashdown and it landed a bit on edge. Instruments showed something like 1000 gees of shock - enough to pulverize a human.

They really expected to find the astronauts slagged - but they were fine - the impulse was so short it didn't matter.


Natural Frequency - everything has a natural frequency and if the shock matches that frequency, it becomes reinforced. Perfect example is driving down a washboard road. You know how it gets rougher and rougher, but if you speed up it gets better? That's an example of resonance. You speed up and it changes the frequency of the impacts - to something other than the frequency (or multiple) of your suspensions system
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 7:11:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 8:17:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
IIRC, air rifles recoil FORWARD and not backward...



Yep, and that's what kills the scopes.

ANdy



Scopes meant for crossbows are built the same as airgun scopes IIRC. Same forward recoil.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 8:31:37 AM EDT
red dot scopes are the only way to go on spring guns.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 8:32:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TrashHeap:
red dot scopes are the only way to go on spring guns.



never mind the good selection of purpose built quality airgun scopes that are availible
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 8:33:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By SgtKiwi:
No shit... A red ryder is worse on a loopy than a Barrett. I've been schooled this morning.



Not a Red Ryder which is a BB gun but an air rifle. Similar principle but like comparing Barry Bonds to some Little Leaguer. The typical springer compresses the air behind a pellet to the degree that it will ignite any petroleum-based oil in the compression chamber. Just like a diesel engine.




TWICE!....

Link Posted: 8/6/2005 9:24:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SgtKiwi:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By SgtKiwi:
No shit... A red ryder is worse on a loopy than a Barrett. I've been schooled this morning.



Not a Red Ryder which is a BB gun but an air rifle. Similar principle but like comparing Barry Bonds to some Little Leaguer. The typical springer compresses the air behind a pellet to the degree that it will ignite any petroleum-based oil in the compression chamber. Just like a diesel engine.




TWICE!....




You from New Zealand?

Just kidding...lightenup, Francis

Anyhow, I was tuning a cheapie China knock-off and tried the dieseling. Regular 3 in I oil worked best, taking the velocity from an anemic 840 FPS to well over 1200 FPS. What was amazing was the report when fully dieseling. Louder than a .22

The recoil is severe because the maximum spring force is at the cocked position. Springers recoil from the instant the trigger is released. Then when the piston hits the end of travel, it stops abruptly. This makes the negative recoil. While recoil energy is minimal, considering the net sum, the scope-killing part is the velocity or more precisely, the rate of change of velocity.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:12:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Two real possibilities - shock duration or natural frequency

Shock duration -It's probably a LONGER duration shock impulse.


Remember, even you can handle 1000 gees - for a very, very brief period.


Back in the Apollo days a gust of wind caught a capsule right before splashdown and it landed a bit on edge. Instruments showed something like 1000 gees of shock - enough to pulverize a human.

They really expected to find the astronauts slagged - but they were fine - the impulse was so short it didn't matter.


Natural Frequency - everything has a natural frequency and if the shock matches that frequency, it becomes reinforced. Perfect example is driving down a washboard road. You know how it gets rougher and rougher, but if you speed up it gets better? That's an example of resonance. You speed up and it changes the frequency of the impacts - to something other than the frequency (or multiple) of your suspensions system



Every scope has a natural frequency that would be different, due to different size, weight, mass, and materials. While it would certainly be an issue, some scopes would be okay, and others would fail. Air guns tend to kill every scope that isn't designed for them.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 10:20:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:


Anyhow, I was tuning a cheapie China knock-off and tried the dieseling. Regular 3 in I oil worked best, taking the velocity from an anemic 840 FPS to well over 1200 FPS. What was amazing was the report when fully dieseling. Louder than a .22

The recoil is severe because the maximum spring force is at the cocked position. Springers recoil from the instant the trigger is released. Then when the piston hits the end of travel, it stops abruptly. This makes the negative recoil. While recoil energy is minimal, considering the net sum, the scope-killing part is the velocity or more precisely, the rate of change of velocity.




LOL...!

I've done that. I crono'ed it for grins and was getting 450-600FPS faster. Lots-O-Fun...!
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