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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 8/26/2004 7:41:50 AM EST
Our Air marshalls are suposed to be undercover but this status is being threatened by new directives from their administrator (s?). This from a friend whose son is doing this duty. The problems; 1). they are being required to adhere to a dress code (suits) that makes them very easily profiled...hard to blend in with passangers when you look like an FBI agent. 2). they are also being required to stay at certain approved lodging and must IDENTIFY themselves there. Gossip alone, could pinpoint them as targets.
Please consider sending a note to your congress critter that you are concerened about Air Marshalls (& therefore passangers, etc) being put at risk by these thoughtless requirments.
thank you, Redpine
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:20:36 AM EST
How about we all wear suits when we fly?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:26:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
How about we all wear suits when we fly?



and hats like in the 50's, that would be an aswesome style comeback.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:28:29 AM EST
1 vote here for skinny ties and sunglasses...

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:28:35 AM EST
Whats an FBI agent look like?


When I check in they make me identify myself too....funny John Doe just does't work any more.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:35:46 AM EST
Pretty soon they'll be requiring them to wear police uniforms and to carry in the open. Why are so many people idiots? And why the hell are we allowing non-tactical people to create such policies?

My solution would be to allow CCW's on-board planes with their concealed weapons. Hell, if they want, even add a CCW aboard planes section to the class, for those who wish to carry on-board. Then turn them loose on the planes. I'm am sure there are enough flyers who would be willing to protect themselves if given the chance, that you'd end up with several packing heat on each flight. This would be my solution to the problem and a good way to supplement the number of marshals on each flight, as well as take some of the pressure off them.

If confusion is an issue, I'm sure there's a way we could figure out how to let the air marshals know who on each particular flight is to be packing, maybe even a picture of them. But it would need to be done in advance in order to allow all of the information to be passed on. But it would need to be done in a manner that would allow as few to know about it as possible, so as to not blow their cover.

The biggest issue would be getting them through the metal detectors and pre-flight screening without drawing attention to them, either by the gun setting off an alarm or by not sending the person through screening.

I'm not sure how to work out all the details, but it could be done if we wanted to or tried. And IMHO, it would be worth it. We would just need to make sure that the bad guys don't get to take guns on board and with a little background check and some racial profiling, we could do just that.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:36:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 8:37:09 AM EST by EOD_Guy]
I seriously doubt that they are required to identify themselves as air marshals at the lodging facilities. They would stay at facilities that give a government rate that does not exceed the per diem rate and would have to identify themselves as government employees. Thousands of government employees do this every day
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:40:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Pretty soon they'll be requiring them to wear police uniforms and to carry in the open. Why are so many people idiots? And why the hell are we allowing non-tactical people to create such policies?

My solution would be to allow CCW's on-board planes with their concealed weapons. Hell, if they want, even add a CCW aboard planes section to the class, for those who wish to carry on-board. Then turn them loose on the planes. I'm am sure there are enough flyers who would be willing to protect themselves if given the chance, that you'd end up with several packing heat on each flight. This would be my solution to the problem and a good way to supplement the number of marshals on each flight, as well as take some of the pressure off them.

If confusion is an issue, I'm sure there's a way we could figure out how to let the air marshals know who on each particular flight is to be packing, maybe even a picture of them. But it would need to be done in advance in order to allow all of the information to be passed on. But it would need to be done in a manner that would allow as few to know about it as possible, so as to not blow their cover.

The biggest issue would be getting them through the metal detectors and pre-flight screening without drawing attention to them, either by the gun setting off an alarm or by not sending the person through screening.

I'm not sure how to work out all the details, but it could be done if we wanted to or tried. And IMHO, it would be worth it. We would just need to make sure that the bad guys don't get to take guns on board and with a little background check and some racial profiling, we could do just that.


It would work, but never happen. After all, law-abiding citizens such as ourselves cannot be trusted.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:44:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 8:45:39 AM EST by BillofRights]
I seriously doubt that they are required to identify themselves as air marshals at the lodging facilities. They would stay at facilities that give a government rate that does not exceed the per diem rate and would have to identify themselves as government employees. Thousands of government employees do this every day


+1 me thinks your friend may have been exaggerating a little.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:45:06 AM EST
This thread should not be on a public forum.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:47:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 8:49:35 AM EST by u-baddog]
I wore a suit the last time I flew (meeting right before flight). I had to tell the hotel to give me the goverment rate too. I am not a goverment employee but depending on the job subcontractors have the same rules about the hotel. I dont think that will blow their cover.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:52:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 8:53:20 AM EST by Ramjet]

Originally Posted By Merrell:
1 vote here for skinny ties and sunglasses...




Here's what they look like, really, no kidding..... trust me...

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:54:28 AM EST
My friend is an air marshall. He is not required to wear a suit 'on the job'.

You have old information.

They are aware they are being profiled and are adapting accordingly.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:59:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ramjet:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
1 vote here for skinny ties and sunglasses...




Here's what they look like, really, no kidding..... trust me...

www.efadgroup.com/AM.gif



lol, is there anything that damn cat hasn't been chased by?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:13:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By Ramjet:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
1 vote here for skinny ties and sunglasses...




Here's what they look like, really, no kidding..... trust me...

www.efadgroup.com/AM.gif



lol, is there anything that damn cat hasn't been chased by?



Give me a minute, I'll think of something.

Personally armed is about the only way I'll get on another airplane.

The only trouble is if the Orc starts something, the Air Marshal will respond, the ARFCOMers will respond, and then some confusion between the Good Guys happens. Meanwhile, the Orc will just start shooting ('cause he's gonna die anyway and no longer has a conscience).

Can someone tell me why the pilot can't just bounce the plane up and down? Bouncing would make it hard for unstrapped people to do much more than sit. "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. I'd like to apologize to y'all for the rough ride, but as you know there's a terrorist on board. He's the one who <dive><thud> just hit the ceiling about now, and he's about to have a rough landing <climb><thud>, and maybe he'll end up on the ceiling again <dive> and hit the floor again <climb><thud> and hit the ceiling again <dive><thud> and hit the floor again <climb><thud>...."

Well, that's what Bugs Bunny would do.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:27:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Pretty soon they'll be requiring them to wear police uniforms and to carry in the open. Why are so many people idiots? And why the hell are we allowing non-tactical people to create such policies?

My solution would be to allow CCW's on-board planes with their concealed weapons. Hell, if they want, even add a CCW aboard planes section to the class, for those who wish to carry on-board. Then turn them loose on the planes. I'm am sure there are enough flyers who would be willing to protect themselves if given the chance, that you'd end up with several packing heat on each flight. This would be my solution to the problem and a good way to supplement the number of marshals on each flight, as well as take some of the pressure off them.

If confusion is an issue, I'm sure there's a way we could figure out how to let the air marshals know who on each particular flight is to be packing, maybe even a picture of them. But it would need to be done in advance in order to allow all of the information to be passed on. But it would need to be done in a manner that would allow as few to know about it as possible, so as to not blow their cover.

The biggest issue would be getting them through the metal detectors and pre-flight screening without drawing attention to them, either by the gun setting off an alarm or by not sending the person through screening.

I'm not sure how to work out all the details, but it could be done if we wanted to or tried. And IMHO, it would be worth it. We would just need to make sure that the bad guys don't get to take guns on board and with a little background check and some racial profiling, we could do just that.




Lets just remove the folding tray and replace it with a nice billy club.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:50:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Brisk322:
...The only trouble is if the Orc starts something, the Air Marshal will respond, the ARFCOMers will respond, and then some confusion between the Good Guys happens. ...


Absolutely!

Everybody armed on an aircraft must know everyone else who is legitimately armed.

An airborne commercial aircraft is a really bad place for a friendly fire incident.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:07:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
I seriously doubt that they are required to identify themselves as air marshals at the lodging facilities.



Jeez, these things are so easy to verify, just try:

Google "air marshals lodging rate"
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:09:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
This thread should not be on a public forum.




WTF? It is a public story, all over the news, TV and Internet. It is the Air Marshals themselves who have made it public in order to get it changed. The more public it becomes, the easier it will be to fix it.

Security through Obscirity is no security at all. Have you ever flown? These guys might as well be wearing RAID jackets they are so obvious.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:55:20 PM EST
Just give everyone who boards the plane a Tazer and there will be no more Hijackings.............
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:00:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:08:42 PM EST
What good can come of this discussion? TTPs for Air Marshalls simply should not be discussed in public. Anyone who really has something to contribute has info that should not be made poublic - the rest can only speculate about things they know diddly squat about. What's the point?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:12:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
What good can come of this discussion? TTPs for Air Marshalls simply should not be discussed in public. Anyone who really has something to contribute has info that should not be made poublic - the rest can only speculate about things they know diddly squat about. What's the point?



If the public knows that the system is not working, then the public can lobby their Congressman to fix it so that it is working. That is how the system works. And it was not working very well when I flew 4 weeks ago into NYC, and they were still wearing suits, boarding first, etc.

Instead of hiding your head in the sand and seeing no evil, do something - call your Congressman and tell him to get it fixed!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:35:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
What good can come of this discussion? TTPs for Air Marshalls simply should not be discussed in public. Anyone who really has something to contribute has info that should not be made poublic - the rest can only speculate about things they know diddly squat about. What's the point?



If the public knows that the system is not working, then the public can lobby their Congressman to fix it so that it is working. That is how the system works. And it was not working very well when I flew 4 weeks ago into NYC, and they were still wearing suits, boarding first, etc.

Instead of hiding your head in the sand and seeing no evil, do something - call your Congressman and tell him to get it fixed!



I know several who are doing that job - this thread is just stupid, period - and your fears are unfounded. The last thing the Air Marshals need is Congress screwing with how they operate. The job involves a complicate number of priorities and procedures, the details of which simply are inappropriate for public view.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:06:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Merrell:
1 vote here for skinny ties and sunglasses...




yeah!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:25:00 PM EST
just put a dummy of rambo on each plane, with a smoking m60. that'll do it.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:30:12 PM EST
Somehow, I guess that starting a "Civilian Airline Defense Corps" is a no-go. Right?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:18:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
What good can come of this discussion? TTPs for Air Marshalls simply should not be discussed in public. Anyone who really has something to contribute has info that should not be made poublic - the rest can only speculate about things they know diddly squat about. What's the point?



Why it wouldn't be AR15.com if it had a point!

Your're correct, there's much that shoudn't be discussed on a public fourm like this but so far, everything voiced is either common knowledge or wild speculation.

I would ripped these guys for caring that an Air Marshal is at risk.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:38:15 PM EST
It would be stupid to allow civilians with CCLs to carry on an aircraft. You could never be certain that they had enough training to resolve the situtation without hosing a dozen passengers in the close confines of a fuselage.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:38:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
This thread should not be on a public forum.



This has been all over the news papers and TV, no secrets here.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:42:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
This thread should not be on a public forum.



This has been all over the news papers and TV, no secrets here.



The DISCUSSION that results, not the original post - is what differentiates a message board from newspapers and TV.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:43:38 PM EST
FAM threads.


sigh......
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:19:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
FAM threads.


sigh......



lol....yep.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 4:53:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 11:56:04 AM EST by EOD_Guy]

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
I seriously doubt that they are required to identify themselves as air marshals at the lodging facilities.



Jeez, these things are so easy to verify, just try:

Google "air marshals lodging rate"



Silly me! I guess I underestimated the buracracy again. I made the mistake of using common sense and assumed there was no need to reinvent the wheel when a perfectly good government rate system was already in place. Having worked with the government in one form or another for 40 years, I should have known better.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:30:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 6:31:38 AM EST by iaim2pleasebabe]
I heard that cat was being chased for violating the assault weapons ban!hock.gif
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:32:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:
This thread should not be on a public forum.



This has been all over the news papers and TV, no secrets here.



The DISCUSSION that results, not the original post - is what differentiates a message board from newspapers and TV.



Yes I forgot you were an expert on this as well.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:17:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
How about we all wear suits when we fly?



And all go armed. Boy won't THAT make it fun for terrorists....

Somehow I think the TSA would disagree with my proposal...
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