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Posted: 6/13/2002 11:30:41 PM EDT
Via the thread regarding the use of the AR-15 to ward off thieves, (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=123975), I posted a small version of how I went to jail in a simular situation. A few people PM'd me asking for the whole story. So here it is:
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 11:32:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/13/2002 11:33:03 PM EDT by Gloftoe]
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 11:35:35 PM EDT
Christmas of 2000, the wife purchased me a nice home-defense shotgun. Mossberg 18" pistol grip 12 gauge. On Jan 7th, my wife and I were going to see the movie with Meg Ryan & Russle Crow (the terrorist one). As we were getting our things together to go to the movie, we heard a few tire screeching. I lived at the time in a col-de-sac, with a park across the street. We at first dismissed it for being kids being stupid at the park, and the parking lot. Well, the screeching happened again; this time followed by loud shouts. I opened my front door to see what was going on. In the col-de-sac, I am the second house on the right from the opening of the street. Therefore, what was happening was right in front of me. About 10 yards up from where the col-de-sac meets the cross-street, there were two cars parked in a V shape blocking in a small pickup truck. At first appearance, people were just starting to get out of their vehicles. I stood there and watched, thinking it may have been a wreck or something. --> Continued
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 11:41:03 PM EDT
<--- Ten guys piled out of the cars and surrounded the truck. They then started violently pushing the truck back and forth. Soon, they started bashing the truck with kicks, etc. A few guys went to the truck of their own cars, and pulled out baseball bats. Again, soon it became an odd baseball game, whereas the truck and locked in passengers were the ball. I yelled at my wife to call 911, while I grabbed my new shotgun. When I got back to the door from grabbing the gun, they had already broken out the front windshield of the truck. The passengers were laying down on their seats. I yelled out, and got their attention. I then calmly and politely asked them to leave. I basically told them the cops were on the way, and we don't need this type of activity here. About 10 seconds passed, with no one moving. Then one of the punks yells "He has a shotgun!". During all of this, I was holding the pump grip of the shotgun, pointing it toward my ceiling. I was still in my house, leaning out the door yelling to them. A few of the kids yelled back "I got a knife" and another yelled "My dad is a lawyer, your going to get in trouble" etc. I found this funny, for here they were going to murder this guy in the truck. I again repeated what I had said earlier, then cocking the shotgun one-armed style (just think Arnold from Terminator). Again, the gun remained pointed up.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 11:45:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 11:50:43 PM EDT
<--- By pumping the shotgun, the kids scrammed quickly. I then started telling my wife what the cars looked like, the amount of people, descriptions, etc; since she was talking to a dispatcher. When I turned back around, the truck then sped off. I set the gun down, and tried to stop them from leaving for the police, for they could have been injured. Yet, the truck left faster than anything. So, I put away the shotgun. Still, no police yet. I figured, "oh well". So we got in the car and headed to the movie. Driving down the cross-street, I see a police car going the opposite way. I flash my lights at him, and stop beside him. I rolled down my wife's window, and told him who I was & I called the police. He then asked me to pull over so he could talk more. I comply. At this point I tell him everything which just happened. He then says ok, wait right here. Next thing I know, I have 10 police cars behind me. About 4 were marked police, the others were unmarked, with light bars inside the windows. All had their lights on. I get 'removed' from my own car, and asked where am I hiding the shotgun. I am in completely disbelief, and try to tell them that they misunderstood the ENTIRE situation. Handcuffed, and laying sideways in the police car, they then proceed to search my car and had my wife handcuffed too. This pushed my buttons. My poor wife. I start yelling at the cops to come back over to me. I tell them nothing is in the car, and demanded that my wife not be treated this way. I then ask to speak to the commanding officer. About 10 minutes later, the senior ranking cop comes over and asks me about the shotgun. I stop him in mid sentence, and tell him how stupid this is. I then again repeat the entire story back to him. He removed the handcuffs from my wife, and asks to drive back to my house. My wife drove the car, while I remained in the cop car. At this point, they got some sort of search warrant. I think they got my wife to sign something saying they could enter my home. Anyways, the senior cop comes up and asks me where the shotgun is in the house. I tell him it is under my bed between my AR-15 and Browning HiPwr. The look on his face was actually quite funny at this point.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:01:18 AM EDT
I am then soon transported back to the police station after I see the cops take my AR-15, Shotgun, and Browning HiPwr. Now, I am really annoyed. Here I am, trying to do good and save some kids life and jail I go! Well, I end up in jail for about 2 hours. Then, they take me to an interrogation room, and have me fill out these forms and write down my 'version' of the story. Later that night, I found out that they had my wife write the same thing. So, after getting writers cramp writing 8 pages of information; I am told that I am being charged with Aggravated Assault with a Deadly weapon. I almost fall out of my chair at this point. I couldn't believe what was happening. They then take me back to the holding cell, where I wait another 30 minutes. I asked the guards if I could speak to my wife. I was going to have her call my lawyer and get me out of this mess. Soon after, the senior officer came back and told me that they were going to release me on 'security' or something. Because I had a clean record, they were going to 'take my word' that I wouldn't flee or something. I didn't care, I just wanted to go home. The next day, I call a lawyer and tell him about the ordeal. A few days later, he calls me back and says everything has been taken care of, and the charges have been dropped. He then further details the missing link of the story for me. Apparently, one of the kids who drove off had called the police and told them I had a gun and was running around discharging it at the park. He then went home and had his FATHER call the police on his behalf for he was 'terrified'. The only problem with the kids story, was that at the end of the first phone call placed in the car as it was leaving; another kid in the background had commented 'that will teach him' as the kid was hanging up the phone. This piece of information, while working with my story & wife's story, set me free. It took them a few days in reviewing the 911 tape to catch that at the end. 4 weeks later I got all my firearms back. Frustrating. So, what's the moral of the story? If someone is going to be killed in a 10 to 1 beating in front of your house, DO NOT INTERVENE. If you do, see the potential consequences? But its a double sided law..... for if you don't intervene, cant you be charged with something?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:11:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 12:12:12 AM EDT by Jetlag]
Of course they wouldn't believe [b]YOU[/b], I mean, you had [b][size=6]GUNS[/size=6][/b] !! [size=1]*** said with tongue planted firmly in cheek ***[/size=1] Anyway, I'm glad it didn't turn out any worse.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:17:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red-Rx7: Apparently, one of the kids who drove off had called the police and told them I had a gun and was running around discharging it at the park. He then went home and had his FATHER call the police on his behalf for he was 'terrified'. The only problem with the kids story, was that at the end of the first phone call placed in the car as it was leaving; another kid in the background had commented 'that will teach him' as the kid was hanging up the phone.
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Seems to me as though you would have some room for civil action against someone that files a false report against you. I mean, you must have severe mental anguish and trauma from the entire ordeal that they put you through.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:27:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Originally Posted By Red-Rx7: Apparently, one of the kids who drove off had called the police and told them I had a gun and was running around discharging it at the park. He then went home and had his FATHER call the police on his behalf for he was 'terrified'. The only problem with the kids story, was that at the end of the first phone call placed in the car as it was leaving; another kid in the background had commented 'that will teach him' as the kid was hanging up the phone.
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Seems to me as though you would have some room for civil action against someone that files a false report against you. I mean, you must have severe mental anguish and trauma from the entire ordeal that they put you through.
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Definitely, Red. Don't let the bastards get away with that. I can understand how pissed you must have been to see your wife handcuffed. I'm glad it ended up alright, but there is no excuse for what happened to you.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:32:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 12:33:23 AM EDT by TheFNG]
It is WRONG not to intervene when someone else's life is in danger. You were inconvenienced by the police but your actions potentially saved LIVES! YOU ARE A HERO! If you want to armchair QB this, it may have been wise to wait until one of the victims were actually out or being actively assaulted, then go out and blow the fuckers away. No witnesses except you and the victims.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 1:02:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheFNG: It is WRONG not to intervene when someone else's life is in danger. You were inconvenienced by the police but your actions potentially saved LIVES! YOU ARE A HERO! If you want to armchair QB this, it may have been wise to wait until one of the victims were actually out or being actively assaulted, then go out and blow the fuckers away. No witnesses except you and the victims.
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Unfortunately, aren't 10 shot shotguns illegal? [}:D] Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 1:51:21 AM EDT
Red, You stopped the assualt. The people that were in the surrounded automobile should be thankful to you. (Didn't they say anything?) If it happened right out at my front yard, I'd have to say I did the exact same thing with my AR-15. The problem is that there are too many kids like these in the World. I seriously question the quality of parental control that they've received during their childhood. Anyway, I understand your frustration, as all others on this board will. You did a right thing. This fvcked human race can keep going because of very fine people like you, people who would actually care. I salute you.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:19:30 AM EDT
If you have any chance at all the first thing you shoot is a camera. Then let the future democratic muslim inmates see your gun.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:34:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By zonan:
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Originally Posted By Red-Rx7: Apparently, one of the kids who drove off had called the police and told them I had a gun and was running around discharging it at the park. He then went home and had his FATHER call the police on his behalf for he was 'terrified'. The only problem with the kids story, was that at the end of the first phone call placed in the car as it was leaving; another kid in the background had commented 'that will teach him' as the kid was hanging up the phone.
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Seems to me as though you would have some room for civil action against someone that files a false report against you. I mean, you must have severe mental anguish and trauma from the entire ordeal that they put you through.
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Definitely, Red. Don't let the bastards get away with that. I can understand how pissed you must have been to see your wife handcuffed. I'm glad it ended up alright, but there is no excuse for what happened to you.
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I agree. What you need to do (to steal a real cheesy phrase) is "go out, and fuck the fucking fuckers".
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:59:59 AM EDT
The only time I will display a weapon is if I fear for my, or my families life. Everyone else is SOL.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:03:27 AM EDT
I think the camera idea is right on. Reminds me that perhaps I need to get a video camera, so my wife can TAPE my actions for court. It would also serve as primary evidence in my civil case should uppity CHILDREN seek to inconvenience their moral and legal BETTERS by bearing FALSE WITNESS. Those children, and the "father" who called the law, should be slapped with a SERIOUS lawsuit. The next step here is to find out WHO they are, and get yourself a good ambulance chaser. It's interesting that Dave G made a comment on another thread as to WHY I have counsel on retainer. I believe this story is a PRIME example of my reasoning. Because in the same situation, I'd have been right there too, with probably the closest weapon to hand...my 12-guage. One minor detail: I would have gone to prison. The moment the kid said "I have a knife"...well...that's lethal force AND in that context it's a threat... You can draw your own conclusions, but we all know to NEVER EVER bring a knife to a gunfight...and what's WORSE, never be STUPID enough to SAY anything after someone already has the DROP on you! Rhetorically speaking only, perhaps it could be speculated that stupidity of that magnitude should have lethal consequences. Just a thought. Panz [bounce]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:34:30 AM EDT
Well Done! You probably saved somebody's hide. Too bad the little assholes inconvenienced you like that...and that the coppers were so brain dead as to take you down instead of chasing after the real perps. Since you're already paying lawyer J. Noble Dagget, I'd send him after the parents of the little fuckers that perpetrated this incident. I would sue for all costs incurred by their [illegal] actions that night. The kids if they are of majority...or the parents if they are still minors, should pay ALL of your costs incurred in this incident, including but certainly not limited to: legal fees, milage to/from the cop station, time off from work...and any other reasonable costs. Finally, I think maybe a nice stiff punitive chunk of dough for pain, suffering and emotional distress. IN FACT...why not let lawyer Daggett just sue the hell out of everybody, lawdogs included? [;D] Dammit, you DID THE RIGHT THING...and it pisses me off when society shits on you for doing so! Maybe if the parents have to shell out a nice chunk of change to make you feel better...they will regain control of the little pricks they have raised. Maybe if the lawmen get jerked around a bit, the next time they won't be so quick to arrest a law-abiding citizen trying to do the right thing. Flame suit on! [pissed] [pissed] [pissed] [pissed]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:39:30 AM EDT
Panz, And again, I agree with you. Only thing is, I'm getting to the point where I might not intervene just because of shit like this. QS
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:11:58 AM EDT
Next time: Don't talk. Don't volunteer information. Don't sign anything (wife included). Don't consent. Don't oblige. Don't leave witnesses. [50]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:47:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red-Rx7: So, what's the moral of the story? If someone is going to be killed in a 10 to 1 beating in front of your house, DO NOT INTERVENE. If you do, see the potential consequences? But its a double sided law..... for if you don't intervene, cant you be charged with something?
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No, IMHO, the moral of the story is don't ever waive your Fifth Amendment right to protection from self-incrimination.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:23:37 AM EDT
In my humble opinion, I think the moral of the story is this:
This piece of information, while working with my story & wife's story, set me free. It took them a few days in reviewing the 911 tape to catch that at the end.
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Without that piece of information, more than likely you'd have gone to trial, to have to prove you didn't do it (despite this being an 'innocent until proven guilty' society). I'm not going to say whether you should or should not have done what you did, but I think it definitely reminds people of just how complicated things can be in these situations....and of course we KNOW that since you were the guy with the gun, you were OBVIOUSLY in the wrong...hehehe.. My only question is this.....if they have that piece of evidence, are the police not going to get the info from the caller on the kid in question....seeing as they're party to a host of crimes that you witnessed?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:08:48 AM EDT
RED, What city are in?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:15:50 AM EDT
Moral of the story: get a lawyer and only talk through him. Secondary moral: dead assholes tell no tales. [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:16:33 AM EDT
Moral of the story? Individual citizens aren't qualified to protect either themselves or others. That's the [i]government's[/i] job. But the law says you can't [i]rely[/i] on the government. If they fail to protect [i]you[/i] you cannot sue. [pissed]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:34:40 AM EDT
NO FLAME BUT>>>>>>>>They DID have BASEBALL BATS!!!(NTM,someone claimed to have a knife)Under the good samaritan act you could have LEAGALLY KILLED THEM ALL(do this at your OWN peril),they were ARMED AND VIOLENT!!!You DO need to sue SOMEBODY!!
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:36:02 AM EDT
DAMN! Just reading that pissed me off! I'd do whatever it takes to get those worthless pukes! I assume that the "My dad's a lawyer" comment means they were teens? Not surprised. No honor, no respect, no common sense from the latest generation of youth.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:42:52 AM EDT
Of course, I'm sure that the police checked for powder residue on your hands as well as in the barrel of the shotgun. That should have set you free. Sue the bastards!
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:43:13 AM EDT
No honor, no respect, no common sense from the latest generation of youth. Yuo got the first two.........wel you got them ALL right.The youth today ACCEL in the way of LYING,DECIEVING,CHEATING,and MANUPILATING though.......(not good attributes)
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:56:50 AM EDT
I will speak as one of the new Generation and say that we aren't *all* bad...
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:00:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Katana16j: I will speak as one of the new Generation and say that we aren't *all* bad...
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Yes. True. There are some good apples in that rotton barrel. Just hard to find you guys! [:D]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:05:49 AM EDT
I'm SORRY to lumb ALL of todays youth in that catagory,but the good/bad ratio is in favor(unfortunately)to the bad.I'm SURE that there is great young people out there today doing good things,butyou are TOO FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:11:25 AM EDT
Seems to me that when a kid hits 13, he rolls over in bed and his brains roll out...they roll back in at about 25 to 30! Trucker [50]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:14:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Goet: Next time: Don't talk. Don't volunteer information. Don't sign anything (wife included). Don't consent. Don't oblige.
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I'd add, be polite.
Don't leave witnesses.
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-I'm hoping that was said tounge-in-cheek. If not, its very [:K]-ish. Red, you got hosed. But you did the correct, reasonable, moral, ethical, and logical thing. Next time dummy up and get a lawyer. P3[pyro][^][heavy]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:24:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ParaPyroPig: I'd add, be polite.
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I'd modify that to, "Be polite only insofar as you are treated politely." Never believe a police officer who tells you that if you tell him everything, this can all be cleared up. Talk to oneshot1kill if you have any doubts.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:27:13 AM EDT
Red-Rx7, Keep us updated. Did the cops arrest this puke and his dad for making false police reports? Last time I checked, that's a crime. Are you taking them to court on your own? -legrue
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 11:40:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY: Yuo got the first two.........wel you got them ALL right.The youth today ACCEL in the way of LYING,DECIEVING,CHEATING,and MANUPILATING though.......(not good attributes)
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Only because of the baby boomers that raised them.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 11:43:09 AM EDT
Thanks for the support. But this, to me, is where the system has failed me. Believe it or not, I am forever [b]scared[/b] from the incident. If the situation ever were to arise again, I am sure I would still intervene, but I know I will stop and contemplate it for quite some time. Remember, this happened back on January 7th, of 2001. My first reaction was defiantly retaliation on those kids. I wanted to prosecute them, and do even further 'bad' things. But, then I actually had another feeling come over... fear. Here I am, out of jail with no firearms in my home. The kids know where I live, what would I do to protect myself in this situation? It was highly unlikely, but anything can happen right? These punks were brave enough to gang up on the truck, who says they wouldn't do so with me? Again, to add salt to the injury, I couldn't just go out and purchase another firearm either (for case purposes). Being charged with Aggravated Assault with a deadly weapon, and the instantly purchasing another firearm doesn't quite look good... At least according to my lawyer. I approached the Olathe Police department, and asked them this question too. They gave their PC answer: Dial 911 in an emergency. [B)] I ended up borrowing my fathers shotgun until I was able to retrieve the firearms back. I never did find the kids/kids father. My lawyer advised me not to venture into this any deeper. This also caused confrontation between us, but in the end I just dropped it. I am glad I was able to somewhat thwart a possible lynching, but the conceded side of me says its not worth it. I had a lot put on the line there. My job was in jeopardy, my wonderful hobbies (guns), and most importantly my [b]FAMILY[/b] safety. Its horrible. I acted within full [b]Moral[/b] responsibilities, yet it did cause me an inconvenience. As minor as some would argue what the inconvenience was, it still had its opportunity to thrash me off track. I know I did right, and I just hope I am deaf/blind/just plain do not ever hear anything happening like this again.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:17:25 PM EDT
RED RX7, You did the right thing in the first place man. I can say probably ALL of us would do what you did and feel the same way you do with what happened subsequently. Those little shits need an ass whooping, and I hope they get it somehow. Karma exists, so it'll bite them in the ass sometime. I'd have been bitching at the cops to find who called in the report against you, because, yes, calling in a false report is a crime. 911 operators record the calls, and probably have some badass caller ID.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 12:49:24 PM EDT
for if you don't intervene, cant you be charged with something?
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Of course you can, didn't you see the final episode of Seinfeld?? By the way, you did the right thing.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 2:10:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By s0ulzer0: DAMN! Just reading that pissed me off! I'd do whatever it takes to get those worthless pukes! I assume that the "My dad's a lawyer" comment means they were teens? Not surprised. No honor, no respect, no common sense from the latest generation of youth.
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Just another reminder that school will soon be out for the summer....I know I can't wait![thinking][beer][puke][whacko][smash][ar­gue][sex][smash][stick][shotgun][rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 2:49:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Red-Rx7: I never did find the kids/kids father. My lawyer advised me not to venture into this any deeper. This also caused confrontation between us, but in the end I just dropped it.
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Always remember that, no matter what the cops and lawyers say, you did the right thing. You probably saved someone's life. I would damm sure sue the little punks and their parents. If my lawyer was giving me trouble, I'd find a new one that wouldn't.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 3:11:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mace: Always remember that, no matter what the cops and lawyers say, you did the right thing. You probably saved someone's life.
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Hooah. Don't let the naysayers let you down. An action was needed - and you acted well. P3[pyro][^][heavy]
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 3:56:34 PM EDT
Red-Rx7, did ANYTHING happen to those lil'bastards? Or did daddy the lawyer clean his brat kids & friends mess up for them?
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 4:09:28 PM EDT
As I read your saga, I too thought about the videocamera. Any speculation on how such an incident could be played out had it been caught on videotape?
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 5:47:10 AM EDT
That business of the lawyer advising red "not to venture any deeper" sounds a bit odd to me. Or, am I reading too much into it? Secondly, maybe I'm not on as high a moral plane as the rest of you, but I agree with bunghole, force is used only if someone is after my family or me. Whatever happened to the one the "kids" were attacking? Is he off and you have the mess? The real payoff (using imagination here) would be if he were one of the anti-gun types. That's something I think about. Here in FL one can use deadly force to stop a "forcible felony." Suppose you "rescue" an anti-gunner and he/she turns against you. HAHA.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 6:26:35 AM EDT
So what hppened to "the children"? Any charges??
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 8:47:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rjroberts: That business of the lawyer advising red "not to venture any deeper" sounds a bit odd to me. Or, am I reading too much into it?
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No, your not reading to deep. I just didn't post too much detail on it all. Basically, somehow I was still in trouble for brandishing my firearm. I 'pumped' the shotgun in an intimidation effort. Also, the lawyer believed that the kid could get away with it while wasting more of my time and money. So I just let it all go. No charges were ever filed in either case (mine or his).
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:26:09 PM EDT
You did the right thing. You risked your life and your freedom to save a stranger. That is something to be very proud of. I hope everybody on this board has the opportunity and the will to one day be equally heroic. Good job. The main moral of the story I gleaned, is to keep a cheap throwaway handy, and the expensive toys safe from da man.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 10:53:15 PM EDT
What i want to know is where were the people in the truck during this whole incident?!?!?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 11:09:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bunghole: The only time I will display a weapon is if I fear for my, or my families life. Everyone else is SOL.
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Ditto! That is what they get for being sheep.
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