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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/24/2002 4:29:06 PM EST
This happened near where I live and was in the local paper today. I cannot imagine what this small boy will have to deal with psychologically as he becomes aware of what happened. One of you in the SF bay area may know this family. I added italics to a comment the mother made only to highlight her lack of knowledge of a semi auto handgun. But from her other comments it's obvious she DOES NOT consider guns bad or evil. [url]http://www.mtdemocrat.com/display/inn_news/G0724_N2.txt[/url] July 24, 2002 -- Father fatally shot by 6-year-old son in accident By JESSICA RUSSELL Staff writer KYBURZ -- A father was accidentally fatally shot by his 6-year-old son during an attempt at target practice that went tragically wrong on Saturday evening, said Lt. Kevin House of the El Dorado County Sheriff's Department. Robert Bruce Hagen, 35, of Newark in the south Bay Area, came inland to El Dorado County to vacation with around 15 family members and friends at the Silver Fork Campground, near Kyburz, over the weekend. He borrowed a friend's gun to teach his son how to shoot it, said Melissa Johnson Hagen, 37, Robert Hagen's widowed wife. An avid sportsman and someone who had spent a lot of time around guns, Robert was very safe, Melissa told the Mountain Democrat. He never hunted, because he didn't like to kill animals, she added. Robert had his arms wrapped around his 6-year-old son, Tyler, and together they were holding a .45 caliber handgun at a spot about three miles away from the camping spot. His son pulled the trigger and sent off the first round, said Melissa. The gun recoiled toward the two, and Tyler was unable to control the gun -- he accidentally pulled the trigger a second time, as the gun was swinging backward toward his father's head, according to sheriff's reports. [i]"I think it was a problem with the gun that made it go off," said Melissa. "It shot off too quickly," she added.[/i] The bullet entered through Robert's chin, his friend John Lucas, of Oakland, who was only feet away from the incident, told sheriff's deputies. "Three inches to the left or right and it would have been the wake-up call of his life ... but it wasn't," said Melissa. Lucas, whose gun Robert and Tyler were practicing with, quickly grabbed Tyler and threw him into the back of his truck, he told deputies, because he knew that Robert was dead. Lucas covered Robert with a sleeping bag and drove back to the campsite to find help and Robert's wife, Melissa. Melissa went with him back to where Robert was lying and held his head and hand for 20 minutes, trying to wipe the blood off his neck with a rag, she said. "I don't think guns are evil. He (Robert) was so excited to share his love of guns with his son," said Melissa. He was a great father, she added. "Stick with BB guns; hands-on training should come later," said Melissa. Robert was an electrical engineer for Applied Materials in Sunnyvale, said his wife. He is survived by his wife of seven years, Melissa, 6-year-old son Tyler, and 2-year-old daughter Shannon.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 4:36:30 PM EST
Yes...very,very sad. But what type of idiot teachjes his kid to shot with a 45 when he is only 6!!!! Morons. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 4:44:47 PM EST
I feel so sorry for the family and can't imagine the agony they are going through now and for some time being deprived of a husband and father. They will be in my prayers. This isn't meant to show disrespect to the diseased, but it points out that firearms are dangerous with proper education and training they can be handled and used safely by those with the capacity and maturity to handle them properly. Please, a 6 year old boy has got absolutley no freakin' business holding onto a .45. If the father had been serious about teaching his son firearm safety he should've started out with something small and more easily controlled, like a bb or pellet pistol. Size the firearm to the shooter. They have to have the strength and coordination to hold and control the firearm before, during, and after the shot and they absolutely have to possess the maturity to understand muzzle control and the proper operation of the safety. Chances are the boy was scared by the recoil or thought he was going to drop the gun behind him, in either case he squeezed the handle and trigger and shot the pistol. Let's not allow our own actions be used against us in the battle over the second admendmant.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 4:46:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Yes...very,very sad. But what type of idiot teaches his kid to shot with a 45 when he is only 6!!!! Morons. Sgtar15
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You said it quicker and more plainly than me.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 5:05:02 PM EST
Not only a .45 but does it need 2 rounds in it? He might of had a full mag. For "learning" at the age of 6 on a .45 I think 1 round would do. Sad.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 5:08:38 PM EST
Aside from the age issue, in my limited experience, never load more than one round for a newbie's first shot, because you never know where the gun is going to be pointed after that. I've also noticed a tendency to turn the loaded gun sideways to look at the safety or whatever.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 5:41:00 PM EST
My father taught me to shot when I was about 6-7 years old. Teach them early and it removes the fear/intrigue .357 mag, loaded with .38 specials 6" Colt Trooper. KA-BANG! My older brother shot it and skinned the hide off his nose. In my father's defense, my older borther INSISTED on shooting it with the .357 magnum loads, against my father's advice.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 5:56:21 PM EST
That's going to be so hard on the kid when he's older... I really feel for the boy and his family. Dad was a bit premature with the .45 maybe, but the lesson would've been better learned if he'd lost part of an ear rather than his life. Damn shame.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 7:22:28 PM EST
Very, very sad. Lost one that was on our side. I'll admit to making the same mistake with my oldest when he was 5. We were at the range and he was shooting a .380. I was right behind him. He made a really good shot, got excited, and turned around to look at me with a big smile on his face - pointing the gun at me. We immediately took a break and I explained calmly to him what could have happened. In his moment of triumph, he forgot all about safety. One round in the gun for very young shooters is excellent advice.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 8:31:29 PM EST
The anti-gunner vultures are already circling. Fienswine and Boxwhore have probably already pointed the ambulance-chasers to her. Not to belittle her, but her comment sounds just like the fuel that the anti's need to get the gun banning machine started again. "I think it was a problem with the gun that made it go off," said Melissa. "It shot off too quickly," she added.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 8:51:56 PM EST
Unfortunate. We were not there, we know nothing of the weopon.....(ie customized or what). But still...... 6 and w/ a .45ACP?! WTF?! Air rifle....... Still..... unfortunate.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 8:56:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/24/2002 8:57:15 PM EST by out-a-ammo]
Very sad story, but it was the fathers fault, not, [b]I repeat[/b], not a problem with the gun that made it go off. One round in the chamber for the kid would have been better, but even that is a little much for a 6 year old. If it was a 1911 he should have installed a .22 conversion kit or bought a different handgun.[:|] Edited for spelling
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 4:21:45 AM EST
Sad, Sad. What ever happened to teaching a kid to shoot with a .22 long gun? Most of my shooting buddies have fond memories of their first Marlin 39, Winchester 9422, Nylon 66, or some old single shot .22. I have to concur with sgtar15. Morons. This reminds me of an incident at a pistol club I belong to. One of the members wife's has MS. They decided it would be "good" for her to try shooting pins. Her MS had progressed to the point that this was a major saftey concern. Even with two men assisting, the muzzel broke 180 degrees on the first shot and she nearly dropped it. I discretely instructed my wife to head for the car while I packed up our stuff. I'm all for finding ways to expand folks horizons but handing a loaded major caliber pistol to woman with a desease that prevents here from even feeding herself while around a large group of shooters is not what I call prudent.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:11:29 AM EST
Jeez, sad story. Always start the kids on a .22.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:17:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hmanjr: I feel so sorry for the family and can't imagine the agony they are going through now and for some time being deprived of a husband and father. They will be in my prayers. This isn't meant to show disrespect to the [red]diseased,[/red] but it points out that firearms are dangerous with proper education and training they can be handled and used safely by those with the capacity and maturity to handle them properly.
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Not to make light of the situation, but this really grabbed my attention. Dad wasn't [i]diseased[/i] (unless you are impuning his mental state for allowing a 6-year-old to shoot a .45), he's now [i]deceased.[/i] And yes, it's another tragedy the anti-gunners will probably swarm over. As I said in an earlier post, we're often our own worst enemies.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:28:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Yes...very,very sad. But what type of idiot teachjes his kid to shot with a 45 when he is only 6!!!! Morons. Sgtar15
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Ditto. Sorry to be so uncaring, but we have a definate Darwin contender. I'm glad numbnuts was the one killed and not his kid. Thats something to be happy about.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:41:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By USNJoe: The anti-gunner vultures are already circling. Fienswine and Boxwhore have probably already pointed the ambulance-chasers to her. Not to belittle her, but her comment sounds just like the fuel that the anti's need to get the gun banning machine started again. "I think it was a problem with the gun that made it go off," said Melissa. "It shot off too quickly," she added.
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I think they're beyond circling. I think her comment was coached. "Fired too fast" would indicate that they are going to sue the manufacturer at the very least. Its propaganda for the ensuing fight.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:41:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By KBaker: Not to make light of the situation, but this really grabbed my attention. Dad wasn't [i]diseased[/i] (unless you are impuning his mental state for allowing a 6-year-old to shoot a .45), he's now [i]deceased.[/i]
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Dang, thought I had spell checked that.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 7:44:38 AM EST
Its not surprising to see everyone in agreement that a .45 is WAY too much for a 6-year old. IMHO, the artillery sequence as follows should be a guide if you have kids: Up to 3 yrs...Popcorn 4 years...toys 5 years...rocks 6 years...small slingshot, no rocks 7 years...small slingshot w/ rocks 8 years...wristrocket 9 years...BB gun...low power 10 years...BB gun...high power 11 years...BB pistol 12 years... .22 single shot rifle 13 years... .22 semi auto rifle 14 years... .22 pistol 15 years and up...whatever you can find Im sure your experiences were probably a bit different, but this would work for some idiot like the dad who got shot. God that was stupid.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 8:04:09 AM EST
I basiccally agree with your list DevilsAdvocate , however I iwll add that each child is differant and should be treated as such. I started my son with a BB gun when he was 9, At 12 (after 2 solid weeks of firearms training) I took him to the range and let him shot my/his bolt action 22 for about an hour. This was done at first with 1 round in the chamber at a time until I felt comfortable and then I eventually filled the mag. We ended the day with me having him shoot [b]1[/b] round out of my Russian Mosin-Nagant M44(7.62x54R). This was done for a very specific purpose in mind. I wanted him to know that rifles were not toys and to let him see the awesome power they possessed, that they can be dangerous. Now keep in ming that at 12 y.o. my son was 6' @ 175 lbs so I knew he could handle the recoil. Needless to say he learned the lesson and to this day is one of the safest shooters I have ever meet. Two weeks ago at the age of 15 (6'5" @230lbs) he shoot his first 50 BMG! I am proud of my son and the way I taught him. Now my 9 y.o. daughter is a differnt story, but that's for another time. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 8:11:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hmanjr:
Originally Posted By KBaker: Not to make light of the situation, but this really grabbed my attention. Dad wasn't [i]diseased[/i] (unless you are impuning his mental state for allowing a 6-year-old to shoot a .45), he's now [i]deceased.[/i]
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Dang, thought I had spell checked that.
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You may have. You spelled "diseased" right. The spell checker doesn't check for context! [:D]
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 8:24:28 AM EST
"An avid sportsman and someone who had spent a lot of time around guns, Robert was very safe, Melissa told the Mountain Democrat. He never hunted, because he didn't like to kill animals, she added." ... "He borrowed a friend's gun to teach his son how to shoot it..." Oh, yes, VERY SAFE. Let's see, he's a great sportsman, but doesn't hunt, and doesn't apparently own a gun, or if he does it's WORSE than a .45 (single action auto?) pistol to teach a kid to shoot with? So his sportsman status is based on hiking and camping, or what? Why am I not suprised it's the gun's fault. Well, good luck to 'em all. It's a high price to pay for deluding yourself (and others) about your level of knowledge and skill.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 8:48:36 AM EST
Dumb-ass.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 9:02:04 AM EST
WTF? How did he think a 6 year old could handle a .45? If you insist on doing something that stupid, at least just load one round at a time.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 9:03:18 AM EST
Loading whatever firearm it was with one round at a time would have been a wise idea, but the caliber I have no problem with, I started shooting a 1911 at age four.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 9:19:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By sgtar15: I basiccally agree with your list DevilsAdvocate , however I iwll add that each child is differant and should be treated as such.
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I don't necessarily agree with the list. My nephew was started on a Ruger 10/22 at age 6. He quickly graduated to the M1 Carbine and now regularly shoots my ARs. He's been shooting with me now for almost a year and just turned seven in May. He's most comfortable with Tweet's A3 shorty. He has shot all my 7.62 guns and prefers the recoil suppressing AR15. But he's not intimidated by the AK or the SKS. We have not gone to any bigger calibers or shotguns yet though. After a year with long guns, he finally got to shoot his first handgun a couple of weeks ago. We let him shoot a S&W 4" .38 revolver and he did EXCELLENT!! He was nailing 4" @ 25 yards. I have no qualms letting him shoot anything up to a 9mm. He's going to have to get a couple of more years of upper body strength development before he can handle a .45 though. I figure by the time he's 9-10 he should be capable of holding his own with nearly any caliber including a .50 BMG.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 11:30:22 AM EST
Personally, I'd start my kid on a BB gun at 6 and work him up to a 22 by the time he is 8. A wrist rocket? Never! More chance to do something stupid and get in trouble. I'd give him a bow and set of arrows like my dad with me at age 9. A kid knows that he can't throw arrows into the wild blue yonder, but a rock in a sling shot is easy ammo and easy trouble!
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 11:36:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Yes...very,very sad. But what type of idiot teachjes his kid to shot with a 45 when he is only 6!!!! Morons. Sgtar15
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We have a 9 year old kid around here that regularly shoots IDPA with a Springfield 1911. Agreed, a .22 would have been a better handgun to use in the instruction, but the mistake here was probably loading more than one round into the pistol to begin with.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 12:24:07 PM EST
Sad, sad, sad, but really a 45ACP? I hope eany reading this will think really hard about how they start their kids off, and with what!
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 12:29:14 PM EST
Lil Ops handled and shot a 38 snubbie at age 5, and a 1911 the next year. He has had proper instruction since infancy, and has been terrorizing the groundhogs since age 4, with a Davy Crickett .22. His first shot with the 45 ended up with the weapon at dead vertical, with his finger OUT of the trigger guard. It depends n the kid, the experience, and the instructor. I dont EVER stand directly behind anyone who is firing, either.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:10:35 AM EST
I think one could sum up what you're all trying to say by suggesting that you start small and progress no further than reasonable. It'll be different for every kid. The man made a mistake. What I worry about is the issues the kid will have, growing up and some day finding out how his dad bought the farm. Accident or not, he may have some issues with it. I hope he'll be all right.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:47:58 AM EST
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