Posted: 11/6/2004 2:19:36 PM EDT
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You see a person wearing a heavy coat and get a glimpse of a chest harness beneath. You know immediately it's a suicide bomber. They are walking towards the visitor lobby of your building. It's morning and the lobby is crowded with employees and guests preparing for a day's labor. What do you do at that point? Yell a warning? "BOMBER!" "TERRORIST BOMBER!" "SUICIDE BOMBER!" Draw your weapon and engage? "POW POW POW" What if it turns out to be a good guy? Run for cover? "BOOM! and you feel like a CHICKEN SHIT forever" YELL at the bomber before they get inside, try to get their attention, try to keep them out of the lobby. What does one do? |
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I would make one hell of a yelling racket while drawing. Knowing he's been made, he will most likely either blow himself up right then and there, or take off running towards the target. If he blows right away, he will do some damage, but nowhere near as much as he might have if he went unchallenged. If he freezes, he gives you the upper hand. You can put a bead on him while all the sheeple haul ass. If he them makes a move, you drop him. If he takes of running, shoot until he drops. At that point any reasonable person, having observed what looks like a bomb harness, would be justified in shooting to protect his life and the life of others. |
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NOT a stupid question at all. You would NOT believe what a brilliant question that is. And you would also NOT believe that nobody has come up with a real good answer for it yet, besides shooting the guy who looks like he is about to blow himself up in a crowd. And hoping that he doesn't trip his trigger on the way to the floor. |
Unless there's a remote activated failsafe switch & his handler trips it. Sometimes the jihadists have second thoughts so the the higher ups rig the bombvest with a backup switch. |
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For better or worse, you gotta see whats under the jacket. Even if that means taking him to the cement. If i was wrong, I'd run for cover. Or explain it to a very pissed off LEO. Either way I'd feel better  .That or you can wait till he screams ALLAH AKBA or what ever the f@k they say, and then start firing. But alot of them are remote detonated, in case the mule chickens out, so your kinda f@cked. |
Good on ya. Going on Mike's premise, he said that you had already observed what clearly looked like a bomb vest. That's reason enough for a bullet. In this case, I'd rather take my chance being judged by twelve rather than my *empty* coffin being carried by six. |
True. But make sure you shoot for the terrorists head .... 
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find nearby cove, if available draw and challenge very loudly communicate to all bystanders that bg is wearing a bomb and evacuate immediatly thinking like a suicide bombing terrorist, he will then attempt to detonate dont hesitate, take him down in the unlikly event that he complies with your commands, have him eat concrete and hold him at gunpoint until the calvary arrive. beware of the deadly triangle, if you are plain clothes or a civilian, you will be challenged by the po-po, do as they say and make sure that they are aware of the threat. |
posted by doublefeed:
As you would have too, in that situation. |
Think head shot 
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Outside of the box thinking THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY work. If you happen to have any bacon on you, walk up to him and touch him with it. In Islam, contact with meat from an unclean animal makes the person ceremonially unclean, guaranteeing him a "downward" elevator ride and no virgins. The 9/11 terrorists took baths and shaved themselves, and, according to a note found in the wreckage, they avoided any cake because of the possibility of shortening made from pig products being included in the frosting. So the reaction would be for him to run away. |
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Now your thinkin, just think of all the police officers in new york, washington d.c. and other places that got to make that decision. Its not a military decision its a police decision that makes it different. I wish it wasnt but it is. Just remember if this does happen keep a open mind.
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I once heard that the Israeli drill was a 3 man rush-- 1 man on each arm, and 1 putting 2 between the eyes... |
And the response time would be? And how long would it take for the terrorist to walk 25 feet into the crowded area? Calling 911 is not an option here. |
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For one thing, I dont' believe state laws have been amended for the type of attacks we may have in the future. The use of Deadly Force varies, in state to state, and remember that in some states, even if you pull a gun on someone else, you become a criminal just like them. Honestly and sadly, we probably need to have a known case, of a suicide bomber detonating himself/herself first, before anyone will believe it could happen. Much like no one would ever believe you can hijack planes, and crash them into buildings, with box cutters, until it happens. |
Texas CHL law would allow the shooting of the terrorist, because there is a clear imminent threat of death. |
Yup saw this one too in iraq...guy chickened out and on the way out of the building...BOOM...blue car that dropped him off drove away |
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Unless you've actually seen a bomb, there's still a possibility he's not a threat. A harness could be there for a bad back, or other brace that many people have to wear. Maybe he's just carrying his legal CCW in a shoulder rig? It would depend greatly on how much you see, and how much you understand seeing. Yelling "Terrorist" or whatever is useless. It won't stop the guy, or do anything else. It also leaves you wide open to a slander in public lawsuit if the guy turns out to be nothing. "look out" or "Stay away from that man" would be better if you're going to yell something, as you aren't going to get sued over that. Frankly though, yelling is pointless on it's own. Shooting him right off the bat can result in just what you stated. What if it's a good guy? You need enough to have acted as a reasonable man fearing for his life. Some places you need more. Running for cover IS an option. Feeling like a chickenshit? You can second guess yourself, but unless you're a professional terrorist hunter, your first duty is to yourself and your family. Insure that first, then increase your risk/payoff ratio if possible. Yelling at the guy may distract him, but then what? It's not a tactic to be used just on it's own. I'd pull the fire alarm. Everyone knows that means trouble, even if they figure it's a false alarm. It will start rolling some sort of response your way. People understand a fire alarm more than some assclown yelling things in the middle of a lobby. I wouldn't yell "Fire" or anything, just pull the alarm and call 911 first. Odds are high at if he's made it this far with a bomb, he's willing to set it off anywhere and someone is going to get hurt. You need to minimize the time that people don't receive medical help. Getting help on the way BEFORE he blows up is good. The fire alarm also shuts down elevators, etc. in many buildings. So if the guy is trying to bomb a specific target on a different floor (like a federal office), he may abort. Sure he might get away, but that's still better than him going off. If he hangs around for some reason, you can tell the security guard, or the cops that show up at the alarm site. Pulling the fire alarm will bring someone there from the building right away to see what is going on. If the guy starts yelling "Allah akbar" and whips out a switch, with his coat now wide open and you can see sticks of dynamite on his chest, it's time to shoot craps and plug him in the head right there. Yeah, he might have a "dead man's switch" or whatever, or he might not. Odds are better if he's dead than if he's alive though. The fire alarm is the first thing though. Ross |
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This is a million and one "what if".......and like they say, "what if my aunt Nora had a set of nuts, would she be my uncle Fred?" What if the guy was "middle eastern looking"? What if it was summer vs. winter (heavy coat thing) What if the building was something of interest....school, mall, church....etc What if I Definately saw a vest that looked like it was a bandoleer of explosives....what if the guy was totally tunnel visioned or very aware of his surroundings (from expericence I will tell you they are very very very very tunneled visioned) SO we can what if this to death, but if I saw a guy that looked middle eastern, had a heavy coat in the summer, very tunneled visioned, saw a vest that looked very much like bomb......then the first thing I do is challange (now it's a little different as far as drawing down on someone because I have a little more wiggle room on the both the criminal and civil side from law suits) still I think the prudent thing to do is draw- hold at side or concealed then challange. I would surmise a non-suicide bomber would respond like every one else. If thinks got hinky or he looked unsure then go to a direct challange....ie gun in face ordering him to the ground...if things got worse as in he looked like he was going to go boom, then start shooting and closing distance....yes close distance so you can make contact shots to the head. Now this whole decision making process would probably take place in the time frame of about 2-3 seconds so you must prepare you mind before hand.....just remember, make the wrong call and shoot an innocent man and you life is over. If you exercise a great power (ie deadly force) then must accept a great responsiblity. |
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leo6223, I think you and several others understand my dilemma. I am not a LEO. Honestly, I think I'd take the chicken shit route, run away. I'd try to run back to my vehicle and try to get away. I have a family to provide for. Like i said, I'm not an LEO, I'm a civilian working at a major defense contractor. We have an "open campus", WIDE OPEN. No guard boothes to challenge people and vehicles before they can get close to the actual buildings/people. No fences around perimeter to keep vehicles and unauthorized people away. We are WIDE OPEN. We are a very good target, too. The building and lobby to which I refer dominates the local skyline. It's a BIG white building with a defense contractor's name on the sides - highly visible. You could EASILY drive a truck of explosives right into the lobby of this building and collapse the whole damned thing. But, originally, I was thinking of a smaller attack. It would be all too easy for them to attack us. Before 9/11, we used to sit at the lunch table and wonder why it hadn't yet happened. We knew it could be done and felt it would be done. Then, it was done. We all knew it was coming, it wasn't a surprise. We all have roots back in NYC or DC, too. That is why it hit home so hard. We knew the place. We knew the people. To us, it wasn't just "New York" or "New Yorkers" . No one likes New York anyway, it's a hell hole; a place to be from. No one likes New Yorkers, either. They are pushy, they talk funny, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. I just don't want it to happen here. I believe it will. We have not prepared for it. Until these terrorist bastards are wiped out, we should be on a war footing. Congress should declare war on Bin Laden/Al Qaeda, Zarkawi/ Ansar Al Islam, etc and their network of supporters. Congress should declare a war. |
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I'm thinking that if I was the one sending someone on a one way mission . Then I'm making the trigger a Dead man switch , meaning that they live as long as they hold it down . That eliminates the possibility that they have second thoughts . It also means that if someone head shoots them there is still a big bang . If faced with the situation , I think I would be yelling and using most of my shots to scatter the crowd at the intended target , then target the bomber depending on how events unfold . |
This makes a lot of sense, I guess - but only to a terrorist bomber
Yelling makes some sense to me, at least it's worth a try. Shooting to scatter the crowd makes no sense to me at all. It is against just about every rule regarding civilian use of firearms. |
