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9/23/2020 3:47:02 PM
Posted: 4/24/2013 7:09:40 PM EDT
Okay guys, sorry to bring less entertaining discussion to the halls of GD, but I feel there is some value in talking about how to handle poor vision and shooting. I was diagnosed with keratoconus last summer and opted for experimental crosslinking treatment in my "bad" eye (right). As a 22 year old and relatively new shooter, the prospect of having a degenerative eye condition was pretty terrifying, but I am making the best of things. For people like me who have KC or astigmatism, there is information here and there about how to make the best of the situation while out shooting, but not a whole lot. I know KC only affects around 1 in 1000 individuals, but I figure on a site with 250,000 active users there must be some others here who have been diagnosed with the condition or who may have it and not realize it.

My story and some tips can be found here:
http://modernrifleman.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/vision-and-shooting-astigmatism-and-keratoconus/


I just want to get as much info out there as possible so that people can continue to enjoy shooting. We have enough working against us as is.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 7:30:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:02:37 PM EDT
I went to my first eye exam because my handgun groups started opening up, not because I had trouble reading or anything. Now I can't stand to read on a computer without glasses. I have just regular astigmatism, thankfully.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:06:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Seiran:
I've had KC since I was 15. Nice to meet another KC patient.


It is nice to find other shooters that fight the condition. If you don't mind me asking, how bad is yours and do you do anything to correct for it?
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:43:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 8:45:18 PM EDT by dablues]
I'd suggest that a red dot scope would be the way to go.  No magnification so both eyes are open with no distortion and see the same picture for best peripheral vision, and where the dot is, that's  the point of impact.  For hunting, 50 yards sighting in is a great compromise.  Google articles for "50 yard improved battlesight zero"   There's a couple posts right here on arfcom.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:49:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dablues:
I'd suggest that a red dot scope would be the way to go.  No magnification so both eyes are open with no distortion and see the same picture for best peripheral vision, and where the dot is, that's  the point of impact.  For hunting, 50 yards sighting in is a great compromise.  Google articles for "50 yard improved battlesight zero"   There's a couple posts right here on arfcom.


From what I've read, astigmatism an red dots don't get along very well.

Link Posted: 4/24/2013 8:56:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 220ST:
Originally Posted By dablues:
I'd suggest that a red dot scope would be the way to go.  No magnification so both eyes are open with no distortion and see the same picture for best peripheral vision, and where the dot is, that's  the point of impact.  For hunting, 50 yards sighting in is a great compromise.  Google articles for "50 yard improved battlesight zero"   There's a couple posts right here on arfcom.


From what I've read, astigmatism an red dots don't get along very well.



That is correct. At close ranges or in bright sunlight it isn't so bad. Anything more than 25 yards, it can be tough. I expect a 1-4x would be better for astigmatism.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:01:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 9:03:34 PM EDT by amos1909]




Originally Posted By ncthorn162





That is correct. At close ranges or in bright sunlight it isn't so bad. Anything more than 25 yards, it can be tough. I expect a 1-4x would be better for astigmatism.


I have a real hard time with my Aimpoints, I see 2 red dots when I am able to see them.



I really like my Leupold Zombie VR-X 1-4. I find that the green dot is easier to see.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:02:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By amos1909:

Originally Posted By ncthorn162


That is correct. At close ranges or in bright sunlight it isn't so bad. Anything more than 25 yards, it can be tough. I expect a 1-4x would be better for astigmatism.


I really like my Leupold Zombie VR-X 1-4. I find that the green dot is easier to see.


Do you struggle with astigmatism? I ask because I am learning that green may be a good choice for me as well.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:03:14 PM EDT
Embrace point shooting. Not joking.
Learn to shoot by feel while looking through the target.

Good Luck,
Lee
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:04:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 9:10:21 PM EDT by amos1909]




Originally Posted By ncthorn1623:



Originally Posted By amos1909:





Originally Posted By ncthorn162





That is correct. At close ranges or in bright sunlight it isn't so bad. Anything more than 25 yards, it can be tough. I expect a 1-4x would be better for astigmatism.




I really like my Leupold Zombie VR-X 1-4. I find that the green dot is easier to see.




Do you struggle with astigmatism? I ask because I am learning that green may be a good choice for me as well.




Yes, a really bad problem since the age of 15. I am now 43 and I had learn to work with the vision problem but had a stroke 3 years ago.  I have struggle since having the stroke and found that I could not really guess what dot/slash was real. I found that the Green dot Leupold have really helped me out.



I like the M4 Aimpoint but my Leupold is 100x better!
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:08:02 PM EDT
Can you get refractive surgery to fix it?
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:08:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By amos1909:


Yes, a really bad problem since the age of 15. I had learn to work through the problem but had a stroke 3 years ago and found that the Green dots really helped me out. I like the M4 Aimpoint but my Leupold is 100x better!


Wow that's both awful and impressive! I am considering trying to see if Trijicon can switch my ACOG over to green, but have heard they charge a pretty penny for the service. The red definitely does not work though.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:12:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 9:13:21 PM EDT by amos1909]




Originally Posted By ncthorn1623:



Wow that's both awful and impressive! I am considering trying to see if Trijicon can switch my ACOG over to green, but have heard they charge a pretty penny for the service. The red definitely does not work though.




Do you have any friends that have a green dot scope that you could try? I would go that way and see if it helps. The diff. is like day and night to me!



I am struggling with typing tonight! It has been one of those days.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:12:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AISTech:
Can you get refractive surgery to fix it?


Yes, in fact PRK seems to be a popular way to go. I have given it consideration. In some ways, I am blessed because I still see well enough out of the right eye to score 20/40. My left eye scores 20/20, but is more like a 20/25 if you ask me. At the same time, it is rough having a mild case because doctors tend to advise against drastic measures for such situations. As shooters, we expect a level of visual acuity that many people could live without.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:13:09 PM EDT
Ever thought of trying something like this?

Well, crap, can't find an example.

But basically a glasses frame with an opaque lens that flips down over the non-dominate eye. Still have both eyes open, but only use the dominate eye.

My search fu is very weak tonight. I know you've seen 'em, The serious rimfire guys use them a lot.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:13:15 PM EDT



Originally Posted By ncthorn1623:



Originally Posted By amos1909:




Originally Posted By ncthorn162





That is correct. At close ranges or in bright sunlight it isn't so bad. Anything more than 25 yards, it can be tough. I expect a 1-4x would be better for astigmatism.




I really like my Leupold Zombie VR-X 1-4. I find that the green dot is easier to see.




Do you struggle with astigmatism? I ask because I am learning that green may be a good choice for me as well.


I have had good luck with a Trijicon Reflex the amber dot is pretty sharp



However I  just learned to live with aimpopint and EoTech dots lookig like  a comma



Had PRK which fixed the astig but gave me some starburst so now the dot looks like this * , but can now shoot a peep sight like a boss
 
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:13:33 PM EDT





Originally Posted By 220ST:





Originally Posted By dablues:


I'd suggest that a red dot scope would be the way to go.  No magnification so both eyes are open with no distortion and see the same picture for best peripheral vision, and where the dot is, that's  the point of impact.  For hunting, 50 yards sighting in is a great compromise.  Google articles for "50 yard improved battlesight zero"   There's a couple posts right here on arfcom.






From what I've read, astigmatism an red dots don't get along very well.





I bought a Primary Arms micro red dot to test this. I see a small star as opposed to a dot. I took a picture through the sight and its a dot. That is not what I see . Same thing with stars overhead. I think it depends on your type of astigmatism.
 
 
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:14:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By amos1909:

Originally Posted By ncthorn1623:

Wow that's both awful and impressive! I am considering trying to see if Trijicon can switch my ACOG over to green, but have heard they charge a pretty penny for the service. The red definitely does not work though.


Do you have any friends that have a green dot scope that you could try? I would go that way and see if it helps. The diff.  is like day and night to me!


Unfortunately, I do not. I may have to hit up some gun shows and shops to see if I can try some out. I love the TA11, but red may not be the way to go.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:16:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 9:18:05 PM EDT by amos1909]




Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

I have had good luck with a Trijicon Reflex the amber dot is pretty sharp



However I just learned to live with aimpopint and EoTech dots lookig like a comma



Had PRK which fixed the astig but gave me some starburst so now the dot looks like this * , but can now shoot a peep sight like a boss







I guess the comma thing was what sort of what I was getting before the stroke. I now have 3-4 comma's showing up. At first, I thought it would be the center comma but it varies from day to day!

Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:17:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JimWest:

Originally Posted By 220ST:
Originally Posted By dablues:
I'd suggest that a red dot scope would be the way to go.  No magnification so both eyes are open with no distortion and see the same picture for best peripheral vision, and where the dot is, that's  the point of impact.  For hunting, 50 yards sighting in is a great compromise.  Google articles for "50 yard improved battlesight zero"   There's a couple posts right here on arfcom.


From what I've read, astigmatism an red dots don't get along very well.

I bought a Primary Arms micro red dot to test this. I see a small star as opposed to a dot. I took a picture through the sight and its a dot. That is not what I see . Same thing with stars overhead. I think it depends on your type of astigmatism.

   


I have a very mild astigmatism and bought a Aimpoint PRO a few months ago. At first that was what I saw, a stellated "dot" or even sometimes something like a / . I've found that the more I look through the dot, not at the dot, it's become... a dot... lol
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:17:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Ever thought of trying something like this?

Well, crap, can't find an example.

But basically a glasses frame with an opaque lens that flips down over the non-dominate eye. Still have both eyes open, but only use the dominate eye.

My search fu is very weak tonight. I know you've seen 'em, The serious rimfire guys use them a lot.


I am familiar with what you describe. The real challenge is when the eye you learned to shoot with becomes the bad one. I am right handed, but left eye dominant. The best option for me as of now is to learn to shoot left handed.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:19:37 PM EDT




Originally Posted By ncthorn1623:



Originally Posted By amos1909:





Originally Posted By ncthorn1623:



Wow that's both awful and impressive! I am considering trying to see if Trijicon can switch my ACOG over to green, but have heard they charge a pretty penny for the service. The red definitely does not work though.




Do you have any friends that have a green dot scope that you could try? I would go that way and see if it helps. The diff. is like day and night to me!




Unfortunately, I do not. I may have to hit up some gun shows and shops to see if I can try some out. I love the TA11, but red may not be the way to go.




Wish I lived closer so that I could help you out!
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:22:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 9:23:17 PM EDT by amos1909]




Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:



Originally Posted By JimWest:





Originally Posted By 220ST:



Originally Posted By dablues:

I'd suggest that a red dot scope would be the way to go. No magnification so both eyes are open with no distortion and see the same picture for best peripheral vision, and where the dot is, that's the point of impact. For hunting, 50 yards sighting in is a great compromise. Google articles for "50 yard improved battlesight zero" There's a couple posts right here on arfcom.




From what I've read, astigmatism an red dots don't get along very well.



I bought a Primary Arms micro red dot to test this. I see a small star as opposed to a dot. I took a picture through the sight and its a dot. That is not what I see . Same thing with stars overhead. I think it depends on your type of astigmatism.







I have a very mild astigmatism and bought a Aimpoint PRO a few months ago. At first that was what I saw, a stellated "dot" or even sometimes something like a / . I've found that the more I look through the dot, not at the dot, it's become... a dot... lol




That is what my wife (she has astigmatism also) was doing but once she looked through my Leupold, I lost the scope.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:23:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By amos1909:


Wish I lived closer so that I could help you out!


I appreciate it! My friends tend to bum off of me when we go to the range. Of course I do make them pitch in for ammo!
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:24:51 PM EDT




Originally Posted By ncthorn1623:



Originally Posted By amos1909:





Wish I lived closer so that I could help you out!




I appreciate it! My friends tend to bum off of me when we go to the range. Of course I do make them pitch in for ammo!




With ammo prices today, it should be "I'll bring the guns, you bring the ammo"!
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:25:02 PM EDT
I agree, try something with a green dot or reticle. Much easier to pick up in bright daylight than red.

I believe that Bushnell offers a couple of models that are switchable between red and green and are affordable.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:36:53 PM EDT



Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:



Originally Posted By JimWest:




Originally Posted By 220ST:


Originally Posted By dablues:

I'd suggest that a red dot scope would be the way to go.  No magnification so both eyes are open with no distortion and see the same picture for best peripheral vision, and where the dot is, that's  the point of impact.  For hunting, 50 yards sighting in is a great compromise.  Google articles for "50 yard improved battlesight zero"   There's a couple posts right here on arfcom.




From what I've read, astigmatism an red dots don't get along very well.



I bought a Primary Arms micro red dot to test this. I see a small star as opposed to a dot. I took a picture through the sight and its a dot. That is not what I see . Same thing with stars overhead. I think it depends on your type of astigmatism.



   




I have a very mild astigmatism and bought a Aimpoint PRO a few months ago. At first that was what I saw, a stellated "dot" or even sometimes something like a / . I've found that the more I look through the dot, not at the dot, it's become... a dot... lol
Yep thats it. I had to look up stelatted. I have  astigmatism in both eyes and was wondering if I could even use a red dot. The / with a blur on top. Looking through optic works just fine. Maybe a  Aimpoint is in my future.




 
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:49:08 PM EDT
I've posted this before and if anyone's sick of seeing it, I apologize.

Here are a couple of targets from my sighting in the AP PRO.

On the right was with my friend spotting and telling me I was hitting left. Made adjustments. The one on left was on my own with different ammo.

Just to show that a 2 MOA red dot at 100 yds. can be decent. Even with my old eyes.



Oh, and HO HO HO!!! I have a new Geissele SSA trigger now... lol

Pretty sure the groups will be more... group-like.. in the future.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 4:13:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 220ST:
Originally Posted By dablues:
I'd suggest that a red dot scope would be the way to go.  No magnification so both eyes are open with no distortion and see the same picture for best peripheral vision, and where the dot is, that's  the point of impact.  For hunting, 50 yards sighting in is a great compromise.  Google articles for "50 yard improved battlesight zero"   There's a couple posts right here on arfcom.


From what I've read, astigmatism an red dots don't get along very well.



Ok.  Didn't know that.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 6:06:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 1:08:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ncthorn1623:
Originally Posted By AISTech:
Can you get refractive surgery to fix it?


Yes, in fact PRK seems to be a popular way to go. I have given it consideration. In some ways, I am blessed because I still see well enough out of the right eye to score 20/40. My left eye scores 20/20, but is more like a 20/25 if you ask me. At the same time, it is rough having a mild case because doctors tend to advise against drastic measures for such situations. As shooters, we expect a level of visual acuity that many people could live without.


I had PRK on March 7th.

At my one month checkup I saw 20/15 in the left and 20/20 in the right, the procedure took about 5 minutes. I would suggest anyone who wants to have better uncorrected vision to try and get the procedure, the risks are minimal with the new technology they use now.
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