Posted: 1/30/2010 9:08:52 PM EDT
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Do they work for the pilot or is it the other way around? It seems to me that the pilot does what he is told and they are the boss. But my instructor tells me that they work for me? Is there any situation where a pilot can overide them? |
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Flight Safety will tell you that they work for the Airlines.
But your instructor is correct, the PIC is the final authority for the safe operation on the aircraft. If you have a conflict with an ATC clearance, you should communicate that immediately. As an example, I was flying a Citation CJ2 cleared RWY heading, climb to 10,000'. We were passing through 4300' [with a 3500fpm climb rate], and the controller told us to level off at 5000'. We immediately replied "unable", ATC stated turn right to 140, climb to 10,000'. That was about it... 
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Quoted:
Oh you were able, it just woulda floated the passengers in their seatbelts for a second. Reminded of this from avweb's shortfinal: Overheard while being vectored to the ILS 10 at KMSY the other day: Approach: Jet 123, maintain 9,000. Jet 123: Um, ok, we're gonna go through it. Approach: That's ok, climb and maintain 10,000. Jet 123: Uh, we're on our way back down to 9,000, now. Approach: Well, 10 is available, you're welcome to climb and maintain 10,000. Jet 123: Why are you doing this to us? Approach: Well, I'm trying to separate you from traffic behind you, if that's OK. Jet 123: That's fine, but we just zero-g'd an aircraft with a US Senator aboard. We'd rather not squash him, now. [pause] Approach: If I'd known that, I'd have sent you back down to 5,000 first. |
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Is there any situation where a pilot can overide them? Absolutely! Look at the PIC abilities in an emergency! Realistically, you either need to follow their orders or inform them "unable" and the reason - if they've, say, pointed you at a mountain peak in a C172 that's climbing at 300 FPM, you need to say something (if you're not going to clear it), or if they update your altitude clearance for an altitude you're already passing through, you need to say something. Or zero G your passengers, one of the two (say something is the better option). Also, there are a wide variety of things available to pilots *if they ask with the right words.* There are entire ranges of things you can do that ATC cannot suggest - I believe Special VFR is one, and I know there are many others buried somewhere. They'll never suggest it (they may hint at it), but if you ask for it, you can get cleared for it. |
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Quoted: Do they work for the pilot or is it the other way around? It seems to me that the pilot does what he is told and they are the boss. But my instructor tells me that they work for me? Is there any situation where a pilot can overide them? Yes! The Pilot in command is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and with sufficient reason can deviate from an ATC clearance. They may get a visit from Flight standards, and from there it could get nasty. I like to think of it as ATC works with Pilots. |
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Is there any situation where a pilot can overide them? Absolutely! Look at the PIC abilities in an emergency! Realistically, you either need to follow their orders or inform them "unable" and the reason - if they've, say, pointed you at a mountain peak in a C172 that's climbing at 300 FPM, you need to say something (if you're not going to clear it), or if they update your altitude clearance for an altitude you're already passing through, you need to say something. Or zero G your passengers, one of the two (say something is the better option). Also, there are a wide variety of things available to pilots *if they ask with the right words.* There are entire ranges of things you can do that ATC cannot suggest - I believe Special VFR is one, and I know there are many others buried somewhere. They'll never suggest it (they may hint at it), but if you ask for it, you can get cleared for it. SVFR and contact approach. |
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ATC suggests, no more than that.
If I don't comply, we can fight it out after, but they just suggest. Now they had a direct line to the asshole that is gonna make your life not fun after you violate some clearance you were given. But hey, its just paperwork, no sense in killing yourself like old Cory did because your worried about a violation. With that said, I like impressing the ATC's. They ask for a descent, I'll toss out the speed brakes and descend at 4.000 ft a min. Want a climb, I can give you 4,500 foot for a min, and then you get 1,800 for the rest. Want a turn? I will crank her to 60 degrees, and G check the oregon aero seats. But ATC better not vector the shit outa me when I have been doing S turns around every 121 guy out there and I declare min fuel. Just sayin |
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if you as the PIC screw up... you die
if the controller screws up... you die be able to do your job and at least have an idea of when ATC isn't bringing their "A game" always run instructions that don't seem right through a "sanity check" and be aware of directions given to other traffic in congested airspace... I've flown too much in environments where controllers were trained as well... when a second controller's voice (the instructor/supervisor) comes over the frequency with a more urgent tone and different instructions, I'm much more obliged to comply immediately! |
| If you don't comply with an ATC clearance you better have a damn good reason, It's not just a little paperwork...you will get 90 days or more in the penalty box with irrevocable damage to your ability to get a flying job forever. In your climb example, this used to happen to us in the Lear 25 all the time, tell them you are through the altitude but will begin an immediate descent back down (They don't know your exact altitude, only what it was on the last radar sweep) I will not negative G my pax because of a lack of planning on ATC's part. You can stand in front of the FAA and this will be a legitimate argument and your attempted compliance with the clearance is on tape. As others have pointed out you can make suggestions that ATC can't. |
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Air Traffic Controllers should actually be named "Air Traffic Coordinators." They are coordinating and deconflicting the traffic that you can't see.
That said, with few notable exceptions, ATC is usually really, really good at getting you what you need, IF YOU KNOW HOW to ask for it. They can't read minds, and don't have time to play 20 questions. Make clear, reasonable requests, or explain why you're unable. If you are going to fly professionally, take the time to visit an ARTCC, Approach facility and control tower. It is worth your time. |
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Quoted: Air Traffic Controllers should actually be named "Air Traffic Coordinators." They are coordinating and deconflicting the traffic that you can't see. That said, with few notable exceptions, ATC is usually really, really good at getting you what you need, IF YOU KNOW HOW to ask for it. They can't read minds, and don't have time to play 20 questions. Make clear, reasonable requests, or explain why you're unable. If you are going to fly professionally, take the time to visit an ARTCC, Approach facility and control tower. It is worth your time. +150000 |
| the only time I flat ignore atc is when they tell us what intersection to turn off at with no prior land and hold short clearance and we've just touched down and still have the nose wheel in the air. other than that they have some pretty good information. I guess what I'm saying is they are trying to keep you safe. Sometimes they ask you to do stuff that is unsafe that is a convenience for them; and they don't know it's unsafe unless you tell them. |