[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 9mm VS 7.62 x25 tokarev (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 3/5/2009 5:01:01 PM EDT
| Im curious what other ArfComers think about why everyone seems to be fixated on expensive 9mm when there is so much of that relatively inexpensive 7.62 x 25 tokarev ammo out there. The price of it is stable too, and its available. Ill admit there aren't any Ruger, S&W or Kimber handguns that chamber the round but for pure inexpensive range time, how can it be beat? It is no slouch either when it comes to muzzle velocity, penetration and plain simple tried and true reliability. Over penetration could be a problem for a city dweller, but for us country guys, its made to order. |
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the major problem with 7.62x25mm are the guns that chamber it......
the CZ is a real turd the TT-33 would be ok with a decent grip angle and a usable safety. It's too bad no one makes a modern pistol for it, could be interesting. A lot more useful cartridge than a 5.7x28mm. I like the cartridge, but the handguns for it are archaic interesting to note that the Russians almost readopted it when they dumped the 9x18mm Makarov a while back. They came very close before going wiht a 9mm AP load. |
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Penetration is incredible in the Tokarevs –– if memory serves me well it actually goes thru basic kevlar vests. Its no joke...would make a perfect "car" gun. Also, it only comes in FMJ trim only, as opposed to 9mm which comes in basically every flavor you want. Nay! Nay!! I have some defense ammo in 7.62X25 |
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Only fmj wrong-o! http://shop.reedsammo.com/category.sc?categoryId=14 |
| Well, I have a TT33 and a CZ52. I cracked the trigger guard with the second magazine of some, I think Bulgarian stuff. It was HOT. Felt like a .44 magnum. Found a new Frame on Gunbroker though. I just havent gone to the trouble to assemble all of the parts in it yet. There must be a reason that no one has produced a domestic handgun in the 7.62 caliber though. Maybe they think the supply of imported military ammo will run out and then what little popularity it might have will fade out. I think that with a nice jacketed hollowpoint it would kick major ass as a basic SHTF defense round if it was chambered in a controllable handgun. No doubt in a PPSH41 or 43 it would be still be awesome in that context. Anyway, I was just asking to see other opinions on this subject. BTW checking out that ammo link indicates there are a lot of options for a defensive round in this caliber. A jacketed hollowpoint at 1600 fps is gonna put a world of hurt on something. |
| Ya, I think the trigger gaurd seemed extremely thin but i had no idea that it would actually crack. It stll works fine though. Ill probably keep the frame with the parts so everything will have matching numbers. Not that matching numbers is a biggie with a cz72. |
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Quoted: Im curious what other ArfComers think about why everyone seems to be fixated on expensive 9mm when there is so much of that relatively inexpensive 7.62 x 25 tokarev ammo out there. The price of it is stable too, and its available. Ill admit there aren't any Ruger, S&W or Kimber handguns that chamber the round but for pure inexpensive range time, how can it be beat? It is no slouch either when it comes to muzzle velocity, penetration and plain simple tried and true reliability. Over penetration could be a problem for a city dweller, but for us country guys, its made to order. I guess you haven't shot much of the surplus shit that I've gotten. One in every 12 rounds needs a re-strike.  Now the Sellier & Bellot is GOOD. |
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Penetrates 13.9" expands to .5"
I have some Czech surplus FMJ that recoils more than any other semi auto I have (including 10mm full power loads). Between that and the safety digging into my hand, my groups go to shit after a mag or two. Primers are cratered, don't like shooting this ammo... But $150 for the pistol and 2 mags is great and ammo is cheap. Have put maybe 500rds through it with no failures of any kind. Not very extensive, but I don't have the stomach to shoot it more than 50 rounds at a time. |
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Quoted:
Im curious what other ArfComers think about why everyone seems to be fixated on expensive 9mm when there is so much of that relatively inexpensive 7.62 x 25 tokarev ammo out there. The price of it is stable too, and its available. Ill admit there aren't any Ruger, S&W or Kimber handguns that chamber the round but for pure inexpensive range time, how can it be beat? It is no slouch either when it comes to muzzle velocity, penetration and plain simple tried and true reliability. Over penetration could be a problem for a city dweller, but for us country guys, its made to order. I guess you haven't shot much of the surplus shit that I've gotten. One in every 12 rounds needs a re-strike.
Now the Sellier & Bellot is GOOD. 
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Penetration is incredible in the Tokarevs –– if memory serves me well it actually goes thru basic kevlar vests. Its no joke...would make a perfect "car" gun. Also, it only comes in FMJ trim only, as opposed to 9mm which comes in basically every flavor you want. It does indeed puncture kevlar. S&B, Wolf, and Winchester all made current production ammo. I even have some HP made by wolf gold. It's a nice round for puncturing kevlar, and it's cheap. I have Romanian TT-33. Got it from Centerfire for 200 bucks with two mags. I love 9mm too. |
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I love this round, GLOCK needs to get their ass in gear and make a mid sized in this caliber.
And, I'm pretty sure all an EAA Witness in .38 Super would need would be a new (custom) barrel to have a 20 shot 7.62x25. Also, take a look at the .22 Reeds Express conversion, it launches 50 grainers at over 2000fps. One final thing: 7.62x25 FMJ vs Level II armored ballistics gel
http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1242.htm |
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Quoted:
Im curious what other ArfComers think about why everyone seems to be fixated on expensive 9mm when there is so much of that relatively inexpensive 7.62 x 25 tokarev ammo out there. The price of it is stable too, and its available. Ill admit there aren't any Ruger, S&W or Kimber handguns that chamber the round but for pure inexpensive range time, how can it be beat? It is no slouch either when it comes to muzzle velocity, penetration and plain simple tried and true reliability. Over penetration could be a problem for a city dweller, but for us country guys, its made to order. I guess you haven't shot much of the surplus shit that I've gotten. One in every 12 rounds needs a re-strike.
Now the Sellier & Bellot is GOOD. Wow. You got ripped then. The milsurp has worked ever time for me with over 4000 rounds. Most Romanian, Czech, and Bulgarian. |
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Has anyone tried it in a PPSH? Yep, lots of fun. Here is my recent ammo shipment too. All cases are 7.62x25 - still waiting on 1 that wasn't sent. I think this along with my current stash should last the rest of my life. Too bad there are no modern handguns that shoot this with 15rd+ magazines. 
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Has anyone tried it in a PPSH? Yep, lots of fun. Here is my recent ammo shipment too. All cases are 7.62x25 - still waiting on 1 that wasn't sent. I think this along with my current stash should last the rest of my life. Too bad there are no modern handguns that shoot this with 15rd+ magazines. http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7531/cimg4926.jpg http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4700/cimg4938.jpg http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3001/cimg5123.jpg THIS PLUS all that 7.62 you just nabbed at SG? Damn, you're rolling in rounds. How much did the PPSH cost you? Where'd you get her? |
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Has anyone tried it in a PPSH? Yep, lots of fun. Here is my recent ammo shipment too. All cases are 7.62x25 - still waiting on 1 that wasn't sent. I think this along with my current stash should last the rest of my life. Too bad there are no modern handguns that shoot this with 15rd+ magazines. http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7531/cimg4926.jpg http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4700/cimg4938.jpg http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3001/cimg5123.jpg Wow but you don't prefer the stick magazines to the drum? |
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Has anyone tried it in a PPSH? Yep, lots of fun. Here is my recent ammo shipment too. All cases are 7.62x25 - still waiting on 1 that wasn't sent. I think this along with my current stash should last the rest of my life. Too bad there are no modern handguns that shoot this with 15rd+ magazines. http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7531/cimg4926.jpg http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4700/cimg4938.jpg http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3001/cimg5123.jpg Wow but you don't prefer the stick magazines to the drum? Yeah they seem to work much better. Most of the drums I have took some tweaking and some just don't work reliably. The stick mags all work flawless. |
| Does that stuff really go through 3a panels? It is listed as a special threat round on my Impac-ST insert. But that could also mean that the soft panel just failed the BS 44mm back face deformation standard with the 7.62x25. I know some East-Euro handgun ammo is steel core though, dont remember what specific country the ammo listed on the plate was. |
| Information on 7,62x25 I keep seeing that only steel core ammo will go thru vests, maybe someone put that in the net to keep the soccer mommies from going haywire and calling the tokarev a cop killer. |
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Information on 7,62x25 I keep seeing that only steel core ammo will go thru vests, maybe someone put that in the net to keep the soccer mommies from going haywire and calling the tokarev a cop killer. It is a special threat round, meaning that the 3a panel failed the NIJ test with FMJ 7.62x25. I was not sure if that was due to it going through the panel or just a BS >44mm BFD measurment. |
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Penetration is incredible in the Tokarevs –– if memory serves me well it actually goes thru basic kevlar vests. Its no joke...would make a perfect "car" gun. Also, it only comes in FMJ trim only, as opposed to 9mm which comes in basically every flavor you want. Wolf sells JHP in 7.62x25, so FMJ isn't your only option. Reed's Ammo also sells (expensive) hot-loaded 7.62x25 loaded with Gold Dots. Quoted:
the major problem with 7.62x25mm are the guns that chamber it...... the CZ is a real turd How the FUCK is the CZ-52 a turd?  It's very well-built, the combined cocked-and-locked safety and decocker is unique and wonderful, it's accurate, and built like a tank. It's a great pistol.
the TT-33 would be ok with a decent grip angle and a usable safety. It's a low-budget 1911ski. Just like the BMP-2 is an M2 Bradleyski. It's too bad no one makes a modern pistol for it, could be interesting. Oh, most definitely. A CZ-75 style SA/DA pistol with a standard-capacity double-stack magazine would be WONDERFUL in 7.62x25mm. A lot more useful cartridge than a 5.7x28mm. Far better penetration, bigger hole, more tissue damage, and hey- it goes through more kevlar too. How about that. I like the cartridge, but the handguns for it are archaic Sadly, conceded. Ditto for the carbines. All we've got are 60 year old SMG's that were hacked up, welded together into semi-auto carbines and given ridiculously long barrels. 
interesting to note that the Russians almost readopted it when they dumped the 9x18mm Makarov a while back. They came very close before going wiht a 9mm AP load. Actually, they still issue PP-19 Bizon SMG's in 7.62 Tokarev to special forces and police. The 9mm 7N21 AP round works, but doesn't have the range or flat trajectory the Tok does. Mmm. 7.62x25 AP ammo in an SMG loaded with 45-rnd helical mags...  |
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The reason people don't use it is because there are no good bullets made for it. If you shoot FMJ - which is about all there is - you're going to make very small holes and you have to worry about the terrible overpenetration. As mentioned previously, Wolf sells JHP ammo for the caliber. Reed's Ammo sells, among other bullet types, Gold Dots. Mag-Safe, at least at one time, sold frangible rounds. As for the "terrible overpenetration", I've never seen it firing S&B ammo out of my CZ-52. Shot a feral pig in the neck with FMJ from a distance of about five feet. Dropped it right there, made it thrash for a few seconds, then expire. No exit hole. Overpenetration isn't an issue with the round, realistically. Will it happen under the right circumstances? Sure. Same with any other caliber. |
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Yeah - I was surprised about the selection of JHP ammo. In this case, I ran my mouth off without looking into the facts and just assumed the selection was as poor as with 9x18. My bad. A FMJ bullet going 1500 fps will penetrate excessively though. There are decent 9X18 JHPs out there too.
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One of the reasons no modern guns are chambered for it, besides the recoil and muzzle blast, is how long it is. We're obsessed with making guns that "feel good" in people's hands. Any gun chambered for the 7.62x25 is going to have a large grip and a long trigger reach. People are going to pick it up in a gun store and say "Eeew, it feels nasty", set it down and pick something that feels better. Hell, stop by the handgun forums, Arf is filled with people that are obsessed with how good a gun feels in the hand, as if that's any indicator of how well the gun works and how well they can run it. Now, if you could re-engineer a 1911 to shoot it, you'd have an instant mass following. Hell, it doesn't even have to work right.  |
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Im curious what other ArfComers think about why everyone seems to be fixated on expensive 9mm when there is so much of that relatively inexpensive 7.62 x 25 tokarev ammo out there. The price of it is stable too, and its available. Ill admit there aren't any Ruger, S&W or Kimber handguns that chamber the round but for pure inexpensive range time, how can it be beat? It is no slouch either when it comes to muzzle velocity, penetration and plain simple tried and true reliability. Over penetration could be a problem for a city dweller, but for us country guys, its made to order. I guess you haven't shot much of the surplus shit that I've gotten. One in every 12 rounds needs a re-strike.
Now the Sellier & Bellot is GOOD. Polish? 1260 tins? |
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7.62X25 pretty great round but you can't buy it at WalMart, Bimart, local supermarket like you can 9's There is no need to buy it at Wal-mart when you can just go to your garage and get some of it. When it's half the price of 9mm it makes good sense to stock up. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone tried it in a PPSH? Yep, lots of fun. Here is my recent ammo shipment too. All cases are 7.62x25 - still waiting on 1 that wasn't sent. I think this along with my current stash should last the rest of my life. Too bad there are no modern handguns that shoot this with 15rd+ magazines. http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7531/cimg4926.jpg http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4700/cimg4938.jpg http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3001/cimg5123.jpg Holy balls  |
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Has anyone tried it in a PPSH? Yep, lots of fun. Here is my recent ammo shipment too. All cases are 7.62x25 - still waiting on 1 that wasn't sent. I think this along with my current stash should last the rest of my life. Too bad there are no modern handguns that shoot this with 15rd+ magazines. http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7531/cimg4926.jpg http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4700/cimg4938.jpg http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3001/cimg5123.jpg Holy balls
I thought it was just the damn Canadians that could get those! 
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One of the reasons no modern guns are chambered for it, besides the recoil and muzzle blast, is how long it is. We're obsessed with making guns that "feel good" in people's hands. Any gun chambered for the 7.62x25 is going to have a large grip and a long trigger reach. People are going to pick it up in a gun store and say "Eeew, it feels nasty", set it down and pick something that feels better. Hell, stop by the handgun forums, Arf is filled with people that are obsessed with how good a gun feels in the hand, as if that's any indicator of how well the gun works and how well they can run it. Now, if you could re-engineer a 1911 to shoot it, you'd have an instant mass following. Hell, it doesn't even have to work right. Which is why NO ONE ever, ever, buys or shoots .38 Super, 10mm Auto, 9x25mm, or a freaking Desert Eagle. 
My CZ-52 doesn't feel bad in my hands, despite the long cartridge length and odd grip angle. Granted, it's a single-stack, not a double-stack, but the point remains. I betcha once a couple modern firearms in 7.62x25mm hit the market, it would become the next uber-round that everyone has to have. Especially since ammo would be cheaper and more widely available than 5.7x28mm, .357 Sig, .45 GAP, etc. Get a major gun rag to do an article on how awesome the caliber is, how there's a big following of it, and it's a shame nobody makes a modern handgun or semi-auto carbine chambered for it... and within a year, someone is going to either be producing a brand-new firearm for it or making a conversion kit for the Glock, EAA Witness, etc. |
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I stick to my statement that the CZ-52 is a turd.....it feels like a turd in the hand....a great big nasty turd...
anyone who thinks a CZ feels good is or is the equal of a modern service pistol has been stroking Nagant revolvers too long.......you have to stop that shit or you will go blind..... do they function? Sure, big deal...but the ergonomics on it blow chunks...... and those roller locking lugs aint the greatest thing since sliced bread either.... regarding the 7.62x25mm in a 1911.....it's been done by the VC.....some even got sold here in the US years ago..... regarding body armor, yes the steel core does make a significant difference, especially if the jacket is not extremely thick at the nose. Why we can't have any......but there are low buck ways around that which are very simple, just ask the IRA... out of a burp gun? Surplus runs around 1850 fps out of a PPSh-41 in my experience...I need to dig mine out....have not shot it in a long time....if I can find the damn thing.... I think a modern 7.62x25mm service pistol would be pretty cool as you could run either expanding or penetrating loads at very high velocity. You can step a 100 grain JHP at some pretty scary velocities. Years ago I did a lot of handloading with the 7.62x25, 9x19 and 10mm. All are pretty neat. I will say though that I have run 115 grain JHPs out of a 9mm before at 1500 fps....then I got mellow.... |
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I betcha once a couple modern firearms in 7.62x25mm hit the market, it would become the next uber-round that everyone has to have. Especially since ammo would be cheaper and more widely available than 5.7x28mm, .357 Sig, .45 GAP, etc. Get a major gun rag to do an article on how awesome the caliber is, how there's a big following of it, and it's a shame nobody makes a modern handgun or semi-auto carbine chambered for it... and within a year, someone is going to either be producing a brand-new firearm for it or making a conversion kit for the Glock, EAA Witness, etc. Ammo prices would jump, just like 5.45 did, if a modern pistol came out. So that is out the window. Plus, there HAVE been articles done and work performed behind the scenes to try to get a modern pistol in this caliber...no one was interested..... |
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The weird grip angle on the CZ-52 is awkward, but once you get used to it and realize that it was designed to be fired with only one hand (the old-fashioned way), you forget it. The only problem I have with the CZ-52 is the European-style mag-release on the heel, and you know what? Just about every other handgun on the fucking continent featured that at the time, so get over it. Next you'll bitch that the Walther P-38 was a turd.
Oh geez, I can just imagine you trying to load and operate a Mauser c96. 
"This gun is fucking horrible! And why do the sights go out to a thousand yards?! It's a fucking handgun!" |