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Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:44:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Sold, pg 6
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:46:53 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
The dragoons would have a 6pnd field gun that could make things interesting.
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And the modern infantry team world have body armor, 40mm HEDP, SAW, hand grenades, and NODs. Those would make it even more interesting.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:50:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:53:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:54:32 PM EDT
[#5]

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I think that every thoughtful person should read their kid's assigned history books.  If the books differ from objective history, then the parents should organize and complain.  If the history books seem to show some political slant, then organize some more and complain again.  



A lot of folks pay attention to town/city council races, but pay scant attention to school committee elections.  The School Committee makes School policy, buys Textbooks, and so shapes how your kid is brainwashed educated.  

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This thread also made another random thought pop into my head (not like that's all that unusual) but I wonder how much Revolutionary War history they're even teaching in schools these days? I graduated in '90 and by the time I was out of school we'd had an entire year of Pennsylvania History when we were in 10th grade, and the biggest part of that being on the Colonial/French and Indian War/Revolutionary War period. Then in 11th grade we had American History from Colonial to Civil War in one semester and then Civil War to Modern in the other, and I know we did at least a month on the Revolution by itself. They sandwiched the American/PA history between the World stuff since in freshman and senior years we had World History for the whole year in each grade, in 9th grade it was Ancient to Industrial Revolution and then in 12th it was Industrial Revolution to Modern.



Just something that I wonder, how much history is actually getting taught anymore in schools?





I think that every thoughtful person should read their kid's assigned history books.  If the books differ from objective history, then the parents should organize and complain.  If the history books seem to show some political slant, then organize some more and complain again.  



A lot of folks pay attention to town/city council races, but pay scant attention to school committee elections.  The School Committee makes School policy, buys Textbooks, and so shapes how your kid is brainwashed educated.  



Yeah that's definitely a really good idea, but I don't have any kids so I have no way to see what the textbooks they're using are. So I still have to wonder.



 
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 11:00:14 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
The dragoons would have a 6pnd field gun that could make things interesting.
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I know that the Legion had 3 pdr grasshoppers.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 12:09:22 AM EDT
[#7]
How about 5 British Infantryman (modern) vs 50 American Revolutionary War infantrymen?

Link Posted: 12/31/2015 1:45:28 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
How about 5 British Infantryman (modern) vs 50 American Revolutionary War infantrymen?

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Armed with L85? I guess they're heavy enough to use as clubs after they catastrophically jam, maybe that will work out in their favor.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 1:49:03 AM EDT
[#9]

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Armed with L85? I guess they're heavy enough to use as clubs after they catastrophically jam, maybe that will work out in their favor.
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Quoted:



Quoted:

How about 5 British Infantryman (modern) vs 50 American Revolutionary War infantrymen?







Armed with L85? I guess they're heavy enough to use as clubs after they catastrophically jam, maybe that will work out in their favor.


If the Brits have L1A1s then it's a whole other story though.



 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 2:24:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 11:34:57 AM EDT
[#11]
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If the Brits have L1A1s then it's a whole other story though.
 
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Quoted:
How about 5 British Infantryman (modern) vs 50 American Revolutionary War infantrymen?



Armed with L85? I guess they're heavy enough to use as clubs after they catastrophically jam, maybe that will work out in their favor.

If the Brits have L1A1s then it's a whole other story though.
 


But but but 20 round mags and uncontrollable auto!!! L1A1 would cut through a revolutionary war cavalry troop like shit through a goose.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 11:37:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Modern infantry before the dragoons even get with in effective musket range lmao
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 11:40:49 AM EDT
[#13]
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Dunno. We seem to be in a race to the bottom.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 1:19:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 1:46:21 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:


L1A1 was never full auto
The L85A2 works
If it happened to not work The British have a back-up plan...........the Bayonet.
And we love a good old Bayonet charge


Just ask the Argies or the Shias in Basra
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFgSmR0i3A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

How about 5 British Infantryman (modern) vs 50 American Revolutionary War infantrymen?


Armed with L85? I guess they're heavy enough to use as clubs after they catastrophically jam, maybe that will work out in their favor.

If the Brits have L1A1s then it's a whole other story though.
 


But but but 20 round mags and uncontrollable auto!!! L1A1 would cut through a revolutionary war cavalry troop like shit through a goose.


L1A1 was never full auto
The L85A2 works
If it happened to not work The British have a back-up plan...........the Bayonet.
And we love a good old Bayonet charge


Just ask the Argies or the Shias in Basra
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFgSmR0i3A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE


How quaint.

Link Posted: 12/31/2015 2:53:10 PM EDT
[#16]

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Quoted:





L1A1 was never full auto

The L85A2 works

If it happened to not work The British have a back-up plan...........the Bayonet.

And we love a good old Bayonet charge





Just ask the Argies or the Shias in Basra

[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFgSmR0i3A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE
View Quote


Good points too.



Although a bayonet charge with L85A2s would be, well let's just say it'd be something special to witness and leave it at that...  



Since I was a kid I've always liked the L1A1, I blame Soldier of Fortune magazine and all those '70s and '80s mercenary movies. One time when I was around 15 or so and we were talking about guns my uncle said that he liked them too, he got to play around with one for a bit when he was in Vietnam and some Australian troops were operating in the same area that they were. He said he wouldn't have traded his M-16 for one though but still considered them fine weapons.



 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 3:03:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 3:25:34 PM EDT
[#18]

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Quoted:
Well read this US report

Basra bayonet charge
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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:





L1A1 was never full auto

The L85A2 works

If it happened to not work The British have a back-up plan...........the Bayonet.

And we love a good old Bayonet charge





Just ask the Argies or the Shias in Basra

[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFgSmR0i3A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE


Good points too.



Although a bayonet charge with L85A2s would be, well let's just say it'd be something special to witness and leave it at that...  



Since I was a kid I've always liked the L1A1, I blame Soldier of Fortune magazine and all those '70s and '80s mercenary movies. One time when I was around 15 or so and we were talking about guns my uncle said that he liked them too, he got to play around with one for a bit when he was in Vietnam and some Australian troops were operating in the same area that they were. He said he wouldn't have traded his M-16 for one though but still considered them fine weapons.

 






Well read this US report

Basra bayonet charge


Oh I know it was effective, but it had to have been very strange to witness seeing as how bullpups don't scream "Gonna stab ya" really.



Plus they were a Scottish regiment, being half-Scottish myself I know Scots are liable charge anyone, anytime even if just with with a small knife for paring fruit so long as it seems like a good idea at the time.



 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 3:36:52 PM EDT
[#19]
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The problem is that doing so would require one side of the fight to not know about the technological advantage of the other side.  In truth, I would expect the technological inferiors to bolt in the face of what, to them, was magic--deadly magic.  Nothing instills fear more than the unknown.  I think it was some Science fiction author that once said "Technology, sufficiently advanced, is magic".  Tough to fight magic.

I think that under the right circumstances, a few of the Brit leaders dropped in their tracks, would cause the rest to retire in haste.  Assuming sound suppressors on the delivering firearms, in great haste.

People ignore the psychological factor at their peril.  The fact that some Brits--presumably the leaders, since they were so conspicuous-- were hit very early on would have collapsed the morale of the Brits and likely caused a rout.
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This should be a History Channel series.

Call it Fire Team.
Introduce a Fire Team into historical battles and debate whether they would change the outcome.  Then re-enact the battle with the fire team to see the outcome.



The problem is that doing so would require one side of the fight to not know about the technological advantage of the other side.  In truth, I would expect the technological inferiors to bolt in the face of what, to them, was magic--deadly magic.  Nothing instills fear more than the unknown.  I think it was some Science fiction author that once said "Technology, sufficiently advanced, is magic".  Tough to fight magic.

I think that under the right circumstances, a few of the Brit leaders dropped in their tracks, would cause the rest to retire in haste.  Assuming sound suppressors on the delivering firearms, in great haste.

People ignore the psychological factor at their peril.  The fact that some Brits--presumably the leaders, since they were so conspicuous-- were hit very early on would have collapsed the morale of the Brits and likely caused a rout.


Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

- I can't remember who, but I think it was actually a scientist, maybe Neil Degrasse Tyson.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 3:42:41 PM EDT
[#20]
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If they bitch while they walk, they're cavalry.

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Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead

Just to be pedantic for a moment, dragoons aren't really cavalry.


If they bitch while they walk, they're cavalry.


Link Posted: 12/31/2015 3:42:49 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:



- I can't remember who, but I think it was actually a scientist, maybe Neil Degrasse Tyson.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This should be a History Channel series.

Call it Fire Team.
Introduce a Fire Team into historical battles and debate whether they would change the outcome.  Then re-enact the battle with the fire team to see the outcome.



The problem is that doing so would require one side of the fight to not know about the technological advantage of the other side.  In truth, I would expect the technological inferiors to bolt in the face of what, to them, was magic--deadly magic.  Nothing instills fear more than the unknown.  I think it was some Science fiction author that once said "Technology, sufficiently advanced, is magic".  Tough to fight magic.

I think that under the right circumstances, a few of the Brit leaders dropped in their tracks, would cause the rest to retire in haste.  Assuming sound suppressors on the delivering firearms, in great haste.

People ignore the psychological factor at their peril.  The fact that some Brits--presumably the leaders, since they were so conspicuous-- were hit very early on would have collapsed the morale of the Brits and likely caused a rout.


Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

- I can't remember who, but I think it was actually a scientist, maybe Neil Degrasse Tyson.


Arthur C. Clarke, folks. Arthur C. Clarke.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 4:08:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 4:15:03 PM EDT
[#23]
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One of my friends was involved in the Bayonet charge on Two Sisters in the Falklands.
Brian was a young Marine in Zulu Troop, 45 Commando Royal Marines. He had already received a gunshot wound to the shoulder in N Ireland at 17 years old, and was flown back to Britain the same night as they realised he was under-age to be on active duty!

Anyway he told me they were in the reserve company but got called up on the flank and went into the attack just after midnight.
The fighting was fierce and he had a few near misses.
About 3hrs into the battle, the OC realised they were running low on ammo and wouldn't be able to complete the assault, so he shouted out the command "Zulu Zulu, Fix bayonets"
He said they all turned to each other and said "did he just say fix bayonets?"
So they did and charged up the hill and won the battle just before dawn
View Quote

Awesome!  

Link Posted: 12/31/2015 4:37:29 PM EDT
[#24]
5 infantrymen win......that's only 10 dragoons/soldier.

It would be a turkey shoot.

20" A2's and iron sights .......still a turkey shoot.

Dragoons would have to get within 25-30 yds to have any accuracy with their smoothbores.
Infantry could have bets on which coat button to shoot at 200 yds.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:24:23 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:


One of my friends was involved in the Bayonet charge on Two Sisters in the Falklands.
Brian was a young Marine in Zulu Troop, 45 Commando Royal Marines. He had already received a gunshot wound to the shoulder in N Ireland at 17 years old, and was flown back to Britain the same night as they realised he was under-age to be on active duty!

Anyway he told me they were in the reserve company but got called up on the flank and went into the attack just after midnight.
The fighting was fierce and he had a few near misses.
About 3hrs into the battle, the OC realised they were running low on ammo and wouldn't be able to complete the assault, so he shouted out the command "Zulu Zulu, Fix bayonets"
He said they all turned to each other and said "did he just say fix bayonets?"
So they did and charged up the hill and won the battle just before dawn
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:


L1A1 was never full auto
The L85A2 works
If it happened to not work The British have a back-up plan...........the Bayonet.
And we love a good old Bayonet charge


Just ask the Argies or the Shias in Basra
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFgSmR0i3A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE

Good points too.

Although a bayonet charge with L85A2s would be, well let's just say it'd be something special to witness and leave it at that...  

Since I was a kid I've always liked the L1A1, I blame Soldier of Fortune magazine and all those '70s and '80s mercenary movies. One time when I was around 15 or so and we were talking about guns my uncle said that he liked them too, he got to play around with one for a bit when he was in Vietnam and some Australian troops were operating in the same area that they were. He said he wouldn't have traded his M-16 for one though but still considered them fine weapons.
 



Well read this US report
Basra bayonet charge

Oh I know it was effective, but it had to have been very strange to witness seeing as how bullpups don't scream "Gonna stab ya" really.

Plus they were a Scottish regiment, being half-Scottish myself I know Scots are liable charge anyone, anytime even if just with with a small knife for paring fruit so long as it seems like a good idea at the time.
 


One of my friends was involved in the Bayonet charge on Two Sisters in the Falklands.
Brian was a young Marine in Zulu Troop, 45 Commando Royal Marines. He had already received a gunshot wound to the shoulder in N Ireland at 17 years old, and was flown back to Britain the same night as they realised he was under-age to be on active duty!

Anyway he told me they were in the reserve company but got called up on the flank and went into the attack just after midnight.
The fighting was fierce and he had a few near misses.
About 3hrs into the battle, the OC realised they were running low on ammo and wouldn't be able to complete the assault, so he shouted out the command "Zulu Zulu, Fix bayonets"
He said they all turned to each other and said "did he just say fix bayonets?"
So they did and charged up the hill and won the battle just before dawn


With no deaths, too, if I recall.  The Falklands expedition was an interesting story.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:32:38 PM EDT
[#26]

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Quoted:





One of my friends was involved in the Bayonet charge on Two Sisters in the Falklands.

Brian was a young Marine in Zulu Troop, 45 Commando Royal Marines. He had already received a gunshot wound to the shoulder in N Ireland at 17 years old, and was flown back to Britain the same night as they realised he was under-age to be on active duty!



Anyway he told me they were in the reserve company but got called up on the flank and went into the attack just after midnight.

The fighting was fierce and he had a few near misses.

About 3hrs into the battle, the OC realised they were running low on ammo and wouldn't be able to complete the assault, so he shouted out the command "Zulu Zulu, Fix bayonets"

He said they all turned to each other and said "did he just say fix bayonets?"

So they did and charged up the hill and won the battle just before dawn
View Quote


Now that's a good story right there there.

I'd definitely buy your friend a pint if I could.

 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 7:58:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:05:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Tarleton's Dragoons - no.  William Washington's 3rd Continental Light Dragoons - maybe.

Look at the battles of Gilford Courthouse and Cowpens (the battles that The Patriot's last battle scene is very loosely based on).  

I may be a little biased.  I had an ancestor who was a Private in the 3rd.  But, if you look at those battles the Dragoons were probably the badest bad-asses of the war.
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:07:05 PM EDT
[#29]

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He doesn't drink



He said that when the fix bayonets order was given, they all went "oh bloody hell"

What he also said that he had a 2lb charge in his belt kit, and while prone a 7.62rd went through the pouch next to it.



Thoroughly nice guy and the actions are all valid and documented.

The Argies got pushed off the mountain that night, but casualties were high on both sides
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Quoted:


Quoted:





One of my friends was involved in the Bayonet charge on Two Sisters in the Falklands.

Brian was a young Marine in Zulu Troop, 45 Commando Royal Marines. He had already received a gunshot wound to the shoulder in N Ireland at 17 years old, and was flown back to Britain the same night as they realised he was under-age to be on active duty!



Anyway he told me they were in the reserve company but got called up on the flank and went into the attack just after midnight.

The fighting was fierce and he had a few near misses.

About 3hrs into the battle, the OC realised they were running low on ammo and wouldn't be able to complete the assault, so he shouted out the command "Zulu Zulu, Fix bayonets"

He said they all turned to each other and said "did he just say fix bayonets?"

So they did and charged up the hill and won the battle just before dawn


Now that's a good story right there there.

I'd definitely buy your friend a pint if I could.  




He doesn't drink



He said that when the fix bayonets order was given, they all went "oh bloody hell"

What he also said that he had a 2lb charge in his belt kit, and while prone a 7.62rd went through the pouch next to it.



Thoroughly nice guy and the actions are all valid and documented.

The Argies got pushed off the mountain that night, but casualties were high on both sides


Fair enough, well I'd buy him a nice cup of tea then.



Yeah hearing "fix bayonets" would probably make most people say "oh bloody hell"...at the very least.



I remember watching the Falkland's War on the news when it was going on, I was pretty young (like 9 going on 10) but even then I thought that sailing all the way to the bottom of the world to sort some people out was a very British thing to do.  
 
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:13:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 12/31/2015 8:52:08 PM EDT
[#31]
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No, they did suffer a few
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With no deaths, too, if I recall.  The Falklands expedition was an interesting story.


No, they did suffer a few


Were't there two posthumous Victoria Crosses awarded for the Falklands.  One, I believe, was for that bayonet charge.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:31:17 AM EDT
[#32]
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:39:58 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
You'd really only have to kill a few at what to them would seem to be inhumanly long range before the rest broke and ran.
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This!!!
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:58:15 AM EDT
[#34]
H Jones!

To those who say, "His attack was foolish."  

BULLOCKS!

Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:10:08 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:11:22 AM EDT
[#36]
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You mean Bollocks
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H Jones!

To those who say, "His attack was foolish."  

BULLOCKS!



You mean Bollocks


Yeah!  Fucking that!
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:22:53 AM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:24:30 AM EDT
[#38]
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its a wonderful word.

Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:28:50 AM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 11:22:05 PM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 11:29:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 11:40:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 12:08:35 AM EDT
[#43]
They would shred a battalion size unit (IIRC about 400 men at the time) assuming good cover in prepared position. And that would lead to rumors a Brigade or more is defending the area.

First the unit of Dragoons. Then a company, then a battalion, etc. Assuming about a 40% kill rate (with 900 rounds) they would be overcome by the Brigade, if the English committed it.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 12:09:40 AM EDT
[#44]
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Those were Tennesseans and Texans.

Hardly rabble.
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The Britishers were also trained in volley fire.
I don't know too much about the Alamo apart from Davy Crockett being there, but weren't the defenders basically a rabble?


Those were Tennesseans and Texans.

Hardly rabble.


Were they well drilled? What year drill manual was Sam Houston's Army using at that point? The 1813 Hand Book for Infantry was copied from English manuals, and were decades old. Could the regulars or volunteers fire three rounds per minute? Could they march 20 miles a day and fight a battle at the end? We're they well disciplined? Were their leaders experienced officers? Did they understand logistics and have a proper system in place for supporting their army?

No, the defenders of the Alamo and the rest of  were incapable of all that. The Europeans, French, British, Prussians, were the standard of military excellence at time. We had a miniscule national standing army, our militia system was outdated, and being Texan or from Tennessee had nothing to do with proper soldiering. We were always 10-20 years behind the times of European advances and because nobody put an emphasis on a proper army, it showed.

Years later one of the greatest military minds of the 19th century said this about why he didn't feel the need to study the great captains of the American Civil War, where our armies were much improved from the Texan and Mexican wars,

"nothing more than the leaders of mobs of armed rabble roaming the countryside."

Sucks to say this but it was absolutely true statement when compared to the European standard. As a former professional soldier I can honestly say we generally sucked ass until about WWII.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 12:28:22 AM EDT
[#45]
We've already chewed this tobacco 142 years ago:  Quannah Parker and 700-1500 Indians armed with pistols and .44 rimfire rifles against 29 buffalo hunters armed with Sharps rifles.  Close enough to the OP's scenario.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 1:54:06 AM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:03:53 AM EDT
[#47]
Its well known that musket balls tumble as they fly causing further injury.

And an injured Dragoon takes like 5 others out of combat due to squealing like a pig.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 2:12:47 AM EDT
[#48]
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Shittier than a gun-grabbing socialist Monarchy? Maybe if Hilary us elected but not today.
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 4:43:32 AM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 1/2/2016 12:03:09 PM EDT
[#50]

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Santa Ana had upwards of 6,000 men at his disposal with artillery support........so no.



Unless the 5 grunts in question were all from Texas......then yes.
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Quoted:

More interesting question...



Could those same 5 grunts with the same load out have changed the outcome of the Battle of the Alamo?



Assuming they were fighting alongside the existing defenders.




Santa Ana had upwards of 6,000 men at his disposal with artillery support........so no.



Unless the 5 grunts in question were all from Texas......then yes.
I dissagree.



Psychological warfare would be epic.




Day one. Santa Anna takes a 55gr fmj to the chest/head. Followed by 4 of his generals. (The "observation" area of officers during battles in that time period were well within the effective range of a modern m4/AR15)




Also, the Mexican army was comprised of mostly conscripts. Cut off the head, and the body dies in that situation
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