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Posted: 9/9/2005 7:10:30 PM EDT
it's my understanding that every 4473 is supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. is this true?

if it is, is there any other way authorities could find out who owns what? is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?


i'm just thinking about all these firearms confiscations in NO. how do the cops know where the guns are? does LA require firearms to be registered?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:11:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:12:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:12:18 PM EDT by Triumph955i]

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:


+1

What does your gut tell you?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:12:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:
it's my understanding that every 4473 is supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. is this true?

if it is, is there any other way authorities could find out who owns what? is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?


i'm just thinking about all these firearms confiscations in NO. how do the cops know where the guns are? does LA require firearms to be registered?



Destroyed? What chu talkin bout?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:13:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Triumph955i:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:


+1

What does your gut tell you?

i don't like what it tells me. i was kind of hoping that i'd like y'alls answers better
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:14:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By notso:

Originally Posted By chips:
it's my understanding that every 4473 is supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. is this true?

if it is, is there any other way authorities could find out who owns what? is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?


i'm just thinking about all these firearms confiscations in NO. how do the cops know where the guns are? does LA require firearms to be registered?



Destroyed? What chu talkin bout?

i was told that the FFL is only supposed to hold on to your 4473 for a certain amount of time. after the time was up, it was to be disposed of. i'm guessing this ain't true?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:14:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:15:27 PM EDT by www-glock19-com]
I believe it is after 20 years they can be disposed of but every old time dealer i know never does
they keep um basiclly forever
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:15:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:15:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:20:47 PM EDT by fargoman]

Originally Posted By chips:
it's my understanding that every 4473 is supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. is this true?



No this is not true. 4473's are kept on file with the FFL until the FFL retires or otherwise goes out of business at which time they are stored in an ATF Warehouse.



if it is, is there any other way authorities could find out who owns what? is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?



No there is no (known) database of gun owners maintaned by the Federal Government. However firearms that are found at a crimescene or used in a crime can be traced to the person who originally purchase the firearm from an FFL.



i'm just thinking about all these firearms confiscations in NO. how do the cops know where the guns are? does LA require firearms to be registered?


They don't know. The authorities in NO are not on a global gun confiscation. They are confiscating firearms when they encounter people that are carrying them.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:15:35 PM EDT
Unless the law has changed, as long as the FFL you bought a firearm from remains in business so do the records at that business. Once the business ceases operations or hands in its FFL, the 4473's are mailed to a govt. warehouse. At least that is the way it was when I had a FFL back in the 80's.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:15:40 PM EDT
but he gov isn't supposed to lie to us, they promised
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:16:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:16:43 PM EDT by C-4]
[BATF] All Your Form 4473's Are Belong To Us [/BATF]
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:17:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
I believe it is after 20 years they can be disposed of but every old time dealer i know never does i
they keep um basiclly forever



I think they are supposed to, but I know some don't or forget to. I was working at a local sporting goods shop doing a repaint of the interior, and up in the office area they left all of the 4473s out from all the years gone by. Some went back to the early 1970s. Long story short - longer than 20 years.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:27:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:34:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:41:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
That's how the ATF's firearms tracing unit backtracks guns used in crimes. The contact the manufacturer/distributor to find out what gun dealer received the firearm, then tell him to give them the 4473 info then contact the purchaser and try to follow the trail from there.



The shop that I work at has a room the size of a small bedroom full of 4473's from as far back as the mid 1970's. FTroop still calls us to do traces on guns that were originally sold before 1985. We usually end up doing about 1 or 2 traces /month.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:43:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:44:10 PM EDT by lincolndz]

Originally Posted By rebel_rifle:
Unless the law has changed, as long as the FFL you bought a firearm from remains in business so do the records at that business. Once the business ceases operations or hands in its FFL, the 4473's are mailed to a govt. warehouse. At least that is the way it was when I had a FFL back in the 80's.



This is correct. I am currently an FFL , and the regulations require me to send my bound record book and all 4473s to them when I go out of business.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:46:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:46:12 PM EDT
damn, it looks like i need to start looking into 80% recievers
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:51:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 7:53:06 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By chips:
is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?

I believe there is.

Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:03:18 PM EDT
They keep them here:




CWO
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:04:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 8:05:41 PM EDT by Archtaan]

if it is, is there any other way authorities could find out who owns what? is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?


I doubt that there is a data base. I say this because I trace 3-4 4473's a week. The ATF faxes us a sheet with the make/model/serial/vendor that sold it to us and the date the firearm was transferred. I then look for the 4473 and give them the name, birthplace, height, weigh, race, SSN and address of the original purchaser.

If you purchase more than 1 handgun in a 5 day period, I have to fax the ATF a form with your name, addy, SSN, make, model, serial numbers and so forth. This in effect is registration.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:05:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CWO:
They keep them here:

www.indygear.com/museum/images/warehouse.jpg


CWO



Yeah, I would have to imagine that is what the place looks like to a certain extent.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:06:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By chips:
is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?

I believe there is.





You believe there is?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:09:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By repub18:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By chips:
is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?

I believe there is.

You believe there is?

I believe there is.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:10:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Archtaan:

if it is, is there any other way authorities could find out who owns what? is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?


I doubt that there is a data base. I say this because I trace 3-4 4473's a week. The ATF faxes us a sheet with the make/model/serial/vendor that sold it to us and the date the firearm was transferred. I then look for the 4473 and give them the name, birthplace, height, weigh, race, SSN and address of the original purchaser.

If you purchase more than 1 handgun in a 5 day period, I have to fax the ATF a form with your name, addy, SSN, make, model, serial numbers and so forth. This in effect is registration.


wow 3-4 a week? we get maybe 1 a month but they seem to come in clusters
5-6 then none for 2-5 months
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:12:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 8:15:08 PM EDT by Stryfe]

Originally Posted By fargoman:

Originally Posted By CWO:
They keep them here:

www.indygear.com/museum/images/warehouse.jpg


CWO



Yeah, I would have to imagine that is what the place looks like to a certain extent.


I hope mine are right next to the ark, wedged in behind the 911 relief funds...

www.southparkstudios.com/media/wallpaper//arkwarehouse_1280x1024.jpg
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:22:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 8:25:19 PM EDT by Archtaan]

wow 3-4 a week? we get maybe 1 a month but they seem to come in clusters
5-6 then none for 2-5 months



Yup, Hi Points, Bersa's, Taurus's, Sigma's and Wasr-10's every week. Oh and the 50 DE that only lasted 2 days before confiscation due to crime.

Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:26:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By Triumph955i:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:


+1

What does your gut tell you?

i don't like what it tells me. i was kind of hoping that i'd like y'alls answers better



Under attorney general Reno, 4473's were kept on file and served as de facto gun registration. Attorney general Ashcroft changed that policy and actually followed the law, and had them all 4473's kept on file destroyed, and ordered all new 4473 forms destroyed withing 30 days. Ashcroft was reviled by the left for being a police state fascist, but they sure got bent out of shape when he defended peoples' privacy and constitutional rights by changing Reno's illegal policy.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:15:09 PM EDT
I've seen many different things in the gun stores I frequent, but in all of them I've never seen a shredder.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:21:31 PM EDT
i know a gun store where they have igniters rigged in the file cabinets. all the ignitors are connected to a few triggers that if they are not undone in the proper method POOF.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:30:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By repub18:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By chips:
is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?

I believe there is.

You believe there is?

I believe there is.



I don't fuckin' care if there is!!!

They want my guns? Come and fuckin' get 'em!
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:45:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 9:49:53 PM EDT by mgw1181]

Originally Posted By NAM:
tinypic.com/dlrzna.jpg

It's a fucking shame that you can replace those fictional Cubans/Russians in that picture with *REAL* National Guard and Police.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:51:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 9:52:36 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By repub18:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By chips:
is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?

I believe there is.

You believe there is?

I believe there is.

I don't fuckin' care if there is!!!

They want my guns? Come and fuckin' get 'em!

When you're not home, they will come and get them.

And when you arrive home, you'll be disarmed faster than than you can say "What's the problem officer?".


In other words... you won't even see it coming.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:51:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By Triumph955i:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:


+1

What does your gut tell you?

i don't like what it tells me. i was kind of hoping that i'd like y'alls answers better



Under attorney general Reno, 4473's were kept on file and served as de facto gun registration. Attorney general Ashcroft changed that policy and actually followed the law, and had them all 4473's kept on file destroyed, and ordered all new 4473 forms destroyed withing 30 days. Ashcroft was reviled by the left for being a police state fascist, but they sure got bent out of shape when he defended peoples' privacy and constitutional rights by changing Reno's illegal policy.



I beleive you're thinking of the instant check records, not the 4473's.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:53:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mgw1181:

Originally Posted By NAM:
tinypic.com/dlrzna.jpg

It's a fucking shame that you can replace those fictional Cubans/Russians in that picture with *REAL* National Guard and Police.



no shit, eh?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:10:50 PM EDT
You can probably count on those records never being erased.

I don't worry about 4473s existing because they are guns that I lawfully own and have performed all necessary actions to purchase.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:10:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:
damn, it looks like i need to start looking into 80% recievers



Don't sweat it bud. They already know you have guns. They already know we all do.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:21:06 PM EDT
What about gunshows ? How would this work out with them ?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:23:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 10:24:03 PM EDT by mgw1181]

Originally Posted By Silesius:
You can probably count on those records never being erased.

I don't worry about 4473s existing because they are guns that I lawfully own and have performed all necessary actions to purchase.

Are you paying attention to what is happening in New Orleans?!?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:26:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
tinypic.com/dlrzna.jpg



Even with the Bear dead, that scene still gives me the creeps....
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:26:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:

Originally Posted By chips:
damn, it looks like i need to start looking into 80% recievers



Don't sweat it bud. They already know you have guns. They already know we all do.





If i buy a few 80% lowers then they will be hard pressed to know about them. They will have a hard time knowing about the ones i have now,because i sold them. I put up a sign on local bulliten board and they are all gone,paid in cash did not ask the guys name.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:30:48 PM EDT
I knew the law used to be 10 years on 4473's. I was told last weekend by someone I trust knows the law says 20 years.

I dont believe anyone destroys 4473's anymore.

Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:59:34 PM EDT
You guys may be too young to remember, but some years ago ATF spent a lot of money on computers, scanners, and was busy scanning into digital format bound books and 4473's turned in by out of business FFL's. Congress got wind of this, and called them in, reminded them that it was illegal, contrary to law, to maintain a database of citizens and their guns. This went back to guys who fought in WWII, knew history... that is, the Nazi's using gun registration to seize guns in Europe.

So, the ATF did it anyway, and got their budget cut.

Then in the years leading up to the AWB, they were going to gunshops with portable scanners or copiers, and copying pages of bound books and 4473's... those NOT under investigation for crimes, but specifically "black rifles"... "assault weapons"... AR-15's, Mini-14's, etc. And they were making their lists.

All contrary to law.

All you need do is google "Operation Forward Trace". Here, I did it for you...

www.atfabuse.com/atfabuse-19.html
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:02:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:
it's my understanding that every 4473 is supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. is this true?

if it is, is there any other way authorities could find out who owns what? is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?


i'm just thinking about all these firearms confiscations in NO. how do the cops know where the guns are? does LA require firearms to be registered?



A FFL may destroy a 4473 after 20 years, used to be 10. Many FFLs for some reason keep 4473s long after their expiration date.

If a FFL goes out of business then ALL of his 4473s (except for any that may have matured and been destroyed) are turned over to the ATF.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:03:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fargoman:

Originally Posted By chips:
it's my understanding that every 4473 is supposed to be destroyed after a certain amount of time. is this true?



No this is not true. 4473's are kept on file with the FFL until the FFL retires or otherwise goes out of business at which time they are stored in an ATF Warehouse.




No your answer is not true. A FFL may destroy 4473s that have been on file for 20 years, used to be 10 and before that it was 5 years.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:06:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lincolndz:

Originally Posted By rebel_rifle:
Unless the law has changed, as long as the FFL you bought a firearm from remains in business so do the records at that business. Once the business ceases operations or hands in its FFL, the 4473's are mailed to a govt. warehouse. At least that is the way it was when I had a FFL back in the 80's.



This is correct. I am currently an FFL , and the regulations require me to send my bound record book and all 4473s to them when I go out of business.



Read the back of one of your 4473s. You are only obligated to maintain them for 20 years.

Now if you go out of business before they are 20 years old then yes they are turned over to ATF.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:07:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By chips:
is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?

I believe there is.




It's a shitty database if you think it comes from the NICS system.

All they know is handgun or longun.

You may have bought one Skeet shotgun or 3 AR-15s, they don't know.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 11:11:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:
I knew the law used to be 10 years on 4473's. I was told last weekend by someone I trust knows the law says 20 years.

I dont believe anyone destroys 4473's anymore.




I've seen FFLs with 4473s going back to the early 70s. I don't know what the fuck they are thinking.

I consider it a courtesy to my customer to destroy matured 4473s and as long as I am in business that is what I will do with 20 year old 4473s. 20 years is long enough to store that crap.
Link Posted: 9/10/2005 2:33:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
A FFL may destroy a 4473 after 20 years, used to be 10. Many FFLs for some reason keep 4473s long after their expiration date.

If a FFL goes out of business then ALL of his 4473s (except for any that may have matured and been destroyed) are turned over to the ATF.














And what do I win for the correct & complete answer??


Link Posted: 9/10/2005 7:16:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By chips:
is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?

I believe there is.

It's a shitty database if you think it comes from the NICS system.

All they know is handgun or longun.

You may have bought one Skeet shotgun or 3 AR-15s, they don't know.

Reputable sources tell me Big Brother has specific firearm info on gunowners. Like dates, locations, serial numbers.



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