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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/13/2001 11:01:10 PM EDT
I'm buying my first rifle in a few weeks and have decided to go with a bolt action Winchester. What I am stuck on is the caliber. I have been thinking 30-06 since it's popular and was the basis of many of the other common hunting and target shooting calibers, but I see that LEO guns are often .308 as are many of the military issue. I was flipping through SGN and noticed a lot of adds for .308 ammo but only a few for 30-06. Finally I am planning on buying some bulk ammo at the Ventura gun show and was wondering what a good all around target practice load would be. Thanks All Barbwyr
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 11:08:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2001 11:07:10 PM EDT by ARMALITE-FAN]
For the reasons you've all ready pointed out 308.Any of the military ball that shoots well in your rifle will suffice for now.Make shure its non corrosive .Also that its boxer if reloading might interest you later.The Winchester also happens to be my favorite bolt rifle behind the Dakota.I dont have the 308 option in the Winchester because Im left handed.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 11:11:39 PM EDT
tastes great! less filling! . . . [url]http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63887[/url] 308 = more accurate, less expensive ammo, uses in bolt guns lean towards target shooting and sniping. 30-06 = slightly less accurate, more expensive ammo, wider range of supportable bullet weights is slightly better suited for hunting. For most good shooters, I doubt there would be too much of a difference as far as accuracy. I think the main points come down to bullet weight selection vs. ammo expense.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 11:15:21 PM EDT
OK, here's how it breaks down: The military used the .30-06 for rifles in WWII but developed the .308 after the war to be lighter in weight (almost half as heavy) and have nearly the same ballistic capabilities. Both calibers can be easily had all over the world for about the same price in commercial loads. The only reason .308 is cheaper (though not in commercial or match loads) is because the military uses it. The police use it because the military does. For the type of rifle you are getting I would suggest commercial loads since they will be more accurate for your rifle and you probably won't burn a whole lot of ammo in a bolt action. Besides the weight difference, a .308 can be had in short action rifles while a long action is needed for .30-06 (some people like short action, claiming that it is faster to operate, though I can operate either with about the same speed). If you are into SHTF scenarios, .308 will be cheaper and easier to get ahold of. However, .30-06 has some extra punch, a little flatter trajectory, and maybe a little extra range (you have to be a pretty good shot to notice the range thing, though). Hope this helps. By the way, I have a Remington .30-06 and it shoots great!
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 11:26:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 11:54:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2001 12:41:19 AM EDT by barbwyr]
One of the reasons I had origanlly thought 30-06 was based on info I got that said the 30-06 was a better all around cartridge and would take anything in North America, short of the bite back variety of game, but the .308 would not be raliable beyond deer. I am not a hunter and will be doing mostly target shooting and of course the SHTF scenario is always in the background so the .308 sounds like a fianancially practical alternative, BUT (there's always a but) I want to be able to take it hunting should I decide to take my relatives up on that offer to go on my first hunting trip. I figure at this point the 30-06 would be my best choice to get started then I can always get that SKS for straight plinking and that .300 Win Mag for big game later. [i]And to think...all this started because I wanted to buy an AR...BUT LIVE IN THE PRK...Damn It![/i][pissed]
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 12:46:11 AM EDT
I talked to an old gunsmith years ago, in Joliet, IL. He had a little shop where he built competition rifles. If he's still alive, he would be well into his eighties. Anyway he felt the .308 was significantly more accurate than the 30-06. Unless you're reloading, any increase in power the 30-06 has over the .308 is negligible. And, of course, the .308 uses a shorter action.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 12:54:48 AM EDT
But will the .308 offer enough power to take most game in PRK. I like the cheapness factor of the ammo but I don't want to buy a new rifle if my unlce says lets go hunting. I see a lot of .308 match talk, but most of the hunting talk I have seen has been 30-06.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 1:43:28 AM EDT
It's hard to argue against the .30-06 as a great all around cartridge. Still as an all around system, I think the .308 has it beat for the "you can only have one" deal. The .30-06 does let you use a wider variety of bullets. This is of little use, since nearly all gunshops are going to be only carrying a small selection of different loads. Go walk into your gunshop right now and see what the different loads that are available, without some special order. You'll find them to be the same as what they're carrying for the .308. You'll also be likely to find .308 surplus cheap stuff easier than any .30-06 surplus. Availability goes to the .308. If you reload, then the .30-06 is more versitile. This is really only in bullet weights above 190gr. Unless you're going to be hunting some really big stuff, the advantage isn't of much use. Also you've already stated you might pick-up a .300 Magnum later, so you'll have a much better vehicle for power out of that than either the .308 or .30-06 can provide. The action on a .308 is shorter than on a .30-06. It may not sound like much, but it makes a difference in weight, length, and handling. It's not a big difference, but it's enough to notice. .308 is popular with the police and Rambo types because it's a military cartridge. It is a great round, but the Army uses it for sniping mainly because it's what's in the system, and they aren't interested in developing a separate cartridge for a handful of people. In it's military loadings the .308 is more accurate and gives longer range than the .30-06 (that's a standard M2 ball to M80 NATO ball comparison). They've run those tests. That's not to say you can't load the .30-06 better, it's just to say that don't base all of your purchasing on what the military uses. It's a factor in ammo cost, but rarely the best choice for an individual. I like it as my overall best cartridge because of all the factors. I think the .308 will work fine for anything in North America, except the really big stuff like moose or bear. I would get the .308 if I just wanted an all around gun that will get the job done for most uses. For more power, I wouldn't bother with the .30-06 at all. I would get a 7mm mag or something like that. The ammo cost really isn't going to be much more than .30-06, you get better power and performance, and it expands your envelope better when combined with owning a .308 more than a .30-06 would. A .300 Win Mag would be a good choice as well. That's my two cents. It's probably worth not much more than that. Ross
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 1:50:09 AM EDT
Actually it was more of a nickels worth since it's helped push me towards the .308. I guess I was looking for someone with experience to say the .308 would work fine, and you're right, the >300mag would be ncie but I thought I would save my shoulder the recoil and learn on something a little smaller. Thanks for the help. Looks like I'll be >308 ammo hunting at the Gun Show.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 2:06:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 11:31:16 AM EDT
I like the '06 for several reasons. It is the most popular hunting cartridge in the world [b]by far[/b]. An NRA article I read a few years ago said 32% of US deer hunters use 30-06 and 17% use its progeny the 270. The 308 came in fourth with only 8%. In some areas, like mine, the 308 is virtually unheard of and you might have difficulty finding the load you want. Innovative powders and bullets appear first loaded in 30-06. Commercial 30-06 is either the same price or cheaper, and more loads are available. The 30-06 is more versatile for big game, because you can load bigger bullets at much higher velocities for elk, bear, etc. For animals like that, the big bullets come in handy. A 30-06 with 220 grain bullets is suitable for just about anything, albeit at limited ranges. For the 308, you need another rifle (but that is not necessarily a bad thing [;)]). In my experience, there is no discernable accuracy difference. My Model 70 in 30-06, without any accurizing, gets 0.5" groups with factory ammo. On the other hand, while the 30-06 theoretically has better trajectory, the difference is insignificant. IMHO, the availability of surplus ammo is not a significant factor. A bolt action 30-06 or 308 is not a great plinker, and FMJ is basically worthless for anything else. You want soft points for SHTF or hunting; they are much deadlier. Winchester only sells a few rifles in 308. If you get a Model 70 in 30-06, get a 24" barrel. The '06 really needs a barrel of that length to take advantage of its full potential. If you get a 22" barrel, the 308 featherweight is a nice choice.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 4:24:32 PM EDT
Boy I sure like a ping pong ball. I think I have bounced back and forth between 06 and .308 more times than our elected officials do on our gun rights. [>:/]
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 7:56:41 PM EDT
Such is the fate of a gun nut! The truth is you won't go wrong either way. Just make sure to buy a first-quality rifle, not the "Stealth" or "Ranger". With the M70 Sporter LT, Stainless or Featherweight, you will not only have a great looking rifle but it will be easy to sell if you want some other goody later.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 8:03:45 PM EDT
I started out Elk hunting with a Springfield 30.06 sporter. Now I use a M1A .308 and shoot just as many Elk. I would go with the .308.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 8:11:52 PM EDT
personly i like 308 excellent balistics and ammo is much cheaper as previulsy said becouse the militray uses it
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 8:17:35 PM EDT
Here is the deal in my eyes. Get the .308 if you want a target gun. If you want a practical gun, get the .30-06. I love people that say more accurate and surplus ammo in the same sentence. I realize that there is quality surplus ammo, but the fact that the .308 is only sightly better in accuracy why even talk about it if you are buying surplus ammo? Target guns don't use surplus ammo they use hand loaded ammunition with trial and error perfections like case brand, gunpowder, set depth, bullet shape, bullet wieght, etc....
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 8:24:42 PM EDT
If you were originally interested in an AR15, but can't get one because you live in CA, then I would look into getting a Springfield Armory M1A. They are civilian semiautomatic versions of the M14, just as the AR15 is the civilian semiautomatic version of the M16. The M1A is a gas operated semiautomatic magazine fed .308 rifle. see: [url]http://www.springfield-armory.com/[/url] With a muzzle break instead of the flash suppressor, they are still legal in California. Also, you can use them for hunting because they are .308s as compared to the AR15's .223 caliber. (Technically speaking, it is possible to hunt with an AR15, but it is not advised.) I bought a standard M1A with a synthetic stock for $1,011. This was the best deal I found. It is more than a bolt action or an AR15, but it might be just what you are looking for.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 9:28:37 PM EDT
I appreciate everyones help and I think I have decided to stick with the gun I looked at origianlly and that's a Win Model 70 Black Shadow®. I like the price and the 30-06 seems to have shown itself to be the best all around cartridge. I also have plans of picking up an SKS the next time the local sporting goods store put them on sale, so I will have a decent plinker to play with. I know I have looked at a lot of rifles in the past few weeks and maybe in a few months when I am ready to move up another level, I'l take another look at the Remington 700 ADL I saw in .300 Win Mag. I decided I wanted to get used to the rifle before the rifle got the best of me. Thanks again. [img]http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/md70/images/70blkshd2.jpg[/img] Not quite the Black Rifle I had hoped for but all hale the PRK
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 10:27:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2001 10:31:41 PM EDT by BusMaster007]
Mind if I jump in here? I hope it's not too late. I'd like to point out a couple of things that might save you some Time & Money! First, you're talking about different calibers and brands of rifles. Second, you're spending a LOT of $$$ on 3 different items when you could get 1 or 2 for the same amount of money. I'm suggesting to you that you can alter the power level of the bolt-action rifle caliber with the recent introduction of enhanced power ammunition. This bumps the calibers' power up almost an entire notch. Therefore, your .308 will almost equal the .30-06; the -06 jumps to near .300 Win.Mag.; etc. Also, the Remington and Winchester rifles are different enough to be cause for pause when you switch back and forth. The Winchester model you show in the photo has the "push feed" system, like the Remington does, but, the safety and the rest of the controls are not the same. It'd be kinda weird going from one to the other. The Remington ADL is a blind magazine which I wouldn't recommend, because you must jack out the rounds from the rifle when unloading unfired ammo. Now, you wonder what I'd foist upon you for a choice? It sounds as thought you want plinking and possible hunting action from two different rifles. The power levels of the 3 cartridges you mentioned in the bolt-actions are all adequate for American big-game, other than gnarly Grizzlies. I'd suggest you get the SKS and a Remington 700 BDL in .308...because you can have the plinker AND you can have an accurate/powerful bolt-action that can use match ammo for target practice or "enhanced" ammo for hunting. An alternative to the 700 BDL would be the Model 7, also in .308. If you intend to get a MORE powerful rifle in the future, jump up in bullet diameter to .338 and you'll have the 3 rifles covered. I remember going through my 1st rifle agony. My 1st rifle was an SKS Paratrooper, which I stupidly traded off. I wish I had that one back. Then, I had to have my 1st HUNTING rifle... I really went bananas trying to decide between the Winchester Model 70 with controlled round feed and the Remington 700 with the push feed and the caliber selection of .308/.30-06/.300 Win.Mag., etc. I ended up walking into a Big5 and on the wall was a 1989 Remington 700 BDL-AS(aralon synthetic stock) in 7MM Rem.Mag., all matte black and in this stock that had a greenish-grey hue to it...SOLD! Problem solved. Great caliber. Great Rifle. Never regretted it and I'll not sell this one. My wife was ecstatic that I FINALLY got something and quit talking about it! If the Winchester you showed us is what YOU want, go get it! Stop getting more advice at this time, and GO GET YOURSELF A RIFLE. PERIOD. Good Luck, Amigo.
Link Posted: 5/15/2001 12:22:40 AM EDT
Do they make a .50 Cal bolt gun?? Just Kidding I guess like the AR I will have to wait on the BMG too.
Link Posted: 5/15/2001 2:33:56 AM EDT
I'll go with .308 unless you hava a $hitload of . 30-06 stashed away.
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