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Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:04:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 11:05:22 PM EST by Shootindave]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:



Hmm, I’d want something short and handy for urban use. Can’t think offhand of many 16” 308s (Ruger scout but more than $800) or 16-18” shorty 6.5cm rifles. Does the $800 include modifications? A 6.5cm Thompson center compass II with the barrel cut down to 16.5” would be pretty neat. Would have $450 to spend on glass. Could probably get a used swfa 3-15 for that money.
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Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Originally Posted By thesilvercord:


I just checked my notes and it’s an “urban scout” rifle course.



Hmm, I’d want something short and handy for urban use. Can’t think offhand of many 16” 308s (Ruger scout but more than $800) or 16-18” shorty 6.5cm rifles. Does the $800 include modifications? A 6.5cm Thompson center compass II with the barrel cut down to 16.5” would be pretty neat. Would have $450 to spend on glass. Could probably get a used swfa 3-15 for that money.


Thompson Center sells a "compact" Compass with a 16.5" barrel from the factory.

https://tcarms.com/firearms/bolt-action-rifles/t-c-compass-rifles/t-c-compass-ii-compact
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:04:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:


That just makes no sense. I can see wanting to keep students from bringing cheap junk that fail and hold up the class, but am not understanding why it would matter on the other end of the things.
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We have ideas that all sniper rifles need to be capable of shooting the wings off a fly at vast distances because we are most familiar with that.  There certainly is a role in that, but think about the history of sniping beyond the US, or peer nations.  You see much cheaper weapons, partially due to supply, but also because in certain types of conflicts weapons were cached.  If you had more caches you had better access to them when needed, and it was harder to root out all the weapons in an area.  In these types of conflicts a single spare no cost rifle is probably worth less than three lesser rifles over the course of the conflict.

The name of the instructor the OP mentions stands out to me.  He's a very interesting dude, with a very interesting perspective due to the life he lived.

I see this as a very interesting course.  Find the most cost effective platform, that is still accurate and reliable enough, and then you can buy deep to have a lot of eggs to basket.  If something failed in this type of course you have learned something for next time.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:06:16 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Originally Posted By thesilvercord:


It’s a “unique” course that Ed Calderon and his sniper buddies are doing.

May or may not happen, but sounds like a cool challenge.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/383490/0E5C9720-AF5A-4994-9E40-FB9E0041A9B3_jpe-1837557.JPG


No shit.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:07:46 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Shootindave:


Thompson Center sells a "compact" Compass with a 16.5" barrel from the factory.

https://tcarms.com/firearms/bolt-action-rifles/t-c-compass-rifles/t-c-compass-ii-compact
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Damn that’s awesome! Thanks
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:08:17 PM EST
Bergara in 6.5 and a used Vortex would do well.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:09:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 11:19:38 PM EST by Urimaginaryfrnd]
Savage rifles tend to shoot well out of the box. Tikka rifles tend to shoot extremely well out of the box they do not leave the factory unless they group under one inch at 100.

SAVAGE 10 P-SR BOLT ACTION RIFLE BLACK .308 WIN 18 INCH 4 RD HEAVY BARREL THREADED  $541.01  not in stock



Tikka T3x Lite Black Bolt Action Rifle - 308 Winchester  $649.99 not in stock

Bushnell 1-4x24 30mm Rifle Scope    $151.95

Talley Lightweight 2 Piece Scopemount w/ Integral 30mm Rings   $36.95

Might have a tough time meeting the 800 limit.
SAVAGE 110 SCOUT FLAT DARK EARTH .308 WIN 16.5-INCH 10RDS  $865.00   the right rifle is over the limit
Tikka CTR  $934.99

And Leupold Scout scopes in the long eye relief 2.5x are unobtanium.


Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:10:16 PM EST
Savage had a Model 10 Trophy Hunter XP with Nikon for 550. Not sure what they're at now.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:10:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?
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Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it’s in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?


You are thinking and talking like a gear snob. Why do you assume inferior equipment?  I mean, some may show up with " inferior" equipment that is not really serviceable but I would think that most would show up with something decent.

Someone could learn ALL the fundamental skills with a decent rifle and glass.

Are you saying that before the "AVERAGE" guy even attempts to shoot some distance that it is advisable for he or she to go out and by a 3K or + rig?
Is that what you are saying? If you are you are full of it.

There are MANY rifle and scope combos out there sub 1K in the hands of hunters/shooters that can do a good job out to 600 yards and beyond in the right hands.

Latest/greatest/most expensive/what's hot/ what the magazines or some Youtube guy says, etc. Does not make a Remington 700 with a good 3x9 on it inferior.

Did you know that there was even a guy that cleaned up on the Benchrest scene and did well in  Silhouette competitions ( that's off hand shooting out to 500 yards ) with a bone fucking stock Remington 700 in .308 that he paid about 300 bucks for?

There are many accurate riles out there ( especially today ) that have all the accuracy anyone would need...... and you don't have to have anything more than a good 3x9 to get out to 600 yards.
You just don't.

I did not read this course as " Official Marine Sniper course that could put you on the front lines as a Marine Sniper!!!"





Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:11:19 PM EST
I got asked what I'd take for my 700 and old scope I have on it. Prices right now how the scope at $300 (Burris 6.5-22) and the rifle at $700.  So pretty much ANYTHING with a scope on it will hit the $800 mark.

My question is why are you taking the class if you don't already have a gun/scope combo that will work for the class?
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:12:07 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?
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Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it’s in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?



If you cant get shit done with a $800 rig you need help.

Yes some rifles and optics will help but honestly if a $400 remington or savage doesn't do 95% of what you need then you probably dont need this class
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:13:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thesilvercord:


Yup. He said something like “think your dad’s old hunting rifle”. Doesn’t want a bunch of guys bringing tier 1 shit for this particular one.
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Originally Posted By thesilvercord:
Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:
Originally Posted By thesilvercord:
Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:
Originally Posted By Notcalifornialegal:
Am I retarded or am I correct in reading this as an actual requirement?
I could see it maybe being an $800 minimum just to keep people from showing up and wasting everyone's time with some airsoft scope that won't hold zero.

But then you could get a decent $750 rifle and throw on cheap $50 scope and get the same result.


I'd like to try it with my SCAR, longer barrel and Vortex 1-10, but that's a little over $800.
Wait, so it's a max value of $800? That's retarded


Yup. He said something like “think your dad’s old hunting rifle”. Doesn’t want a bunch of guys bringing tier 1 shit for this particular one.


I think I see where he's going with the class. should be interesting and provide some insight into shooting many people here apparently missed in their own shooting education.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:13:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dipper:


You are thinking and talking like a gear snob. Why do you assume inferior equipment?  I mean, some may show up with " inferior" equipment that is not really serviceable but I would think that most would show up with something decent.

Someone could learn ALL the fundamental skills with a decent rifle and glass.

Are you saying that before the "AVERAGE" guy even attempts to shoot some distance that it is advisable for he or she to go out and by a 3K or + rig?
Is that what you are saying? If you are you are full of it.

There are MANY rifle and scope combos out there sub 1K in the hands of hunters/shooters that can do a good job out to 600 yards and beyond in the right hands.

Latest/greatest/most expensive/what's hot/ what the magazines or some Youtube guy says, etc. Does not make a Remington 700 with a good 3x9 on it inferior.

Did you know that there was even a guy that cleaned up on the Benchrest scene and did well in  Silhouette competitions ( that's off hand shooting out to 500 yards ) with a bone fucking stock Remington 700 in .308 that he paid about 300 bucks for?

There are many accurate riles out there ( especially today ) that have all the accuracy anyone would need...... and you don't have to have anything more than a good 3x9 to get out to 600 yards.
You just don't.

I did not read this course as " Official Marine Sniper course that could put you on the front lines as a Marine Sniper!!!"





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Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it’s in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?


You are thinking and talking like a gear snob. Why do you assume inferior equipment?  I mean, some may show up with " inferior" equipment that is not really serviceable but I would think that most would show up with something decent.

Someone could learn ALL the fundamental skills with a decent rifle and glass.

Are you saying that before the "AVERAGE" guy even attempts to shoot some distance that it is advisable for he or she to go out and by a 3K or + rig?
Is that what you are saying? If you are you are full of it.

There are MANY rifle and scope combos out there sub 1K in the hands of hunters/shooters that can do a good job out to 600 yards and beyond in the right hands.

Latest/greatest/most expensive/what's hot/ what the magazines or some Youtube guy says, etc. Does not make a Remington 700 with a good 3x9 on it inferior.

Did you know that there was even a guy that cleaned up on the Benchrest scene and did well in  Silhouette competitions ( that's off hand shooting out to 500 yards ) with a bone fucking stock Remington 700 in .308 that he paid about 300 bucks for?

There are many accurate riles out there ( especially today ) that have all the accuracy anyone would need...... and you don't have to have anything more than a good 3x9 to get out to 600 yards.
You just don't.

I did not read this course as " Official Marine Sniper course that could put you on the front lines as a Marine Sniper!!!"






I assume inferior equipment because inferior equipment is mandated. Why else would a limit of 800 dollars be instituted?
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:15:02 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 03RN:



If you cant get shit done with a $800 rig you need help.

Yes some rifles and optics will help but honestly if a $400 remington or savage doesn't do 95% of what you need then you probably dont need this class
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Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it’s in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?



If you cant get shit done with a $800 rig you need help.

Yes some rifles and optics will help but honestly if a $400 remington or savage doesn't do 95% of what you need then you probably dont need this class

If everything can be learned using an 800 dollar rifle and scope, then why bother mandating an upper limit?
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:19:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

I assume inferior equipment because inferior equipment is mandated. Why else would a limit of 800 dollars be instituted?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it’s in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?


You are thinking and talking like a gear snob. Why do you assume inferior equipment?  I mean, some may show up with " inferior" equipment that is not really serviceable but I would think that most would show up with something decent.

Someone could learn ALL the fundamental skills with a decent rifle and glass.

Are you saying that before the "AVERAGE" guy even attempts to shoot some distance that it is advisable for he or she to go out and by a 3K or + rig?
Is that what you are saying? If you are you are full of it.

There are MANY rifle and scope combos out there sub 1K in the hands of hunters/shooters that can do a good job out to 600 yards and beyond in the right hands.

Latest/greatest/most expensive/what's hot/ what the magazines or some Youtube guy says, etc. Does not make a Remington 700 with a good 3x9 on it inferior.

Did you know that there was even a guy that cleaned up on the Benchrest scene and did well in  Silhouette competitions ( that's off hand shooting out to 500 yards ) with a bone fucking stock Remington 700 in .308 that he paid about 300 bucks for?

There are many accurate riles out there ( especially today ) that have all the accuracy anyone would need...... and you don't have to have anything more than a good 3x9 to get out to 600 yards.
You just don't.

I did not read this course as " Official Marine Sniper course that could put you on the front lines as a Marine Sniper!!!"






I assume inferior equipment because inferior equipment is mandated. Why else would a limit of 800 dollars be instituted?


OK. You win the internets for today. You are clueless but you win!!!
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:23:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dipper:


OK. You win the internets for today. You are clueless but you win!!!
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it’s in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?


You are thinking and talking like a gear snob. Why do you assume inferior equipment?  I mean, some may show up with " inferior" equipment that is not really serviceable but I would think that most would show up with something decent.

Someone could learn ALL the fundamental skills with a decent rifle and glass.

Are you saying that before the "AVERAGE" guy even attempts to shoot some distance that it is advisable for he or she to go out and by a 3K or + rig?
Is that what you are saying? If you are you are full of it.

There are MANY rifle and scope combos out there sub 1K in the hands of hunters/shooters that can do a good job out to 600 yards and beyond in the right hands.

Latest/greatest/most expensive/what's hot/ what the magazines or some Youtube guy says, etc. Does not make a Remington 700 with a good 3x9 on it inferior.

Did you know that there was even a guy that cleaned up on the Benchrest scene and did well in  Silhouette competitions ( that's off hand shooting out to 500 yards ) with a bone fucking stock Remington 700 in .308 that he paid about 300 bucks for?

There are many accurate riles out there ( especially today ) that have all the accuracy anyone would need...... and you don't have to have anything more than a good 3x9 to get out to 600 yards.
You just don't.

I did not read this course as " Official Marine Sniper course that could put you on the front lines as a Marine Sniper!!!"






I assume inferior equipment because inferior equipment is mandated. Why else would a limit of 800 dollars be instituted?


OK. You win the internets for today. You are clueless but you win!!!

Look, there's a reason snipers in the military aren't using 400 dollar rifles and 400 dollar optics. If you're able to hit the targets you want to hit using whatever rifle you use, that's great; I really don't care.

I'm saying that it's silly to limit the quality of equipment at a course designed to teach.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:23:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

If everything can be learned using an 800 dollar rifle and scope, then why bother mandating an upper limit?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it's in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?



If you cant get shit done with a $800 rig you need help.

Yes some rifles and optics will help but honestly if a $400 remington or savage doesn't do 95% of what you need then you probably dont need this class

If everything can be learned using an 800 dollar rifle and scope, then why bother mandating an upper limit?


Do you carry your $5k LR rig with you everywhere? What if you're away from home when SHTF and you have to make do with your in-laws neighbor's 1960s era deer rifle? If I have my normal LR rig and my Kestrel and my ballistic calculator I can ring steel first shot at 1000 yards. But if I'm caught with none of that? Then what? This isn't a beginner class.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:24:24 PM EST
While I applaud you getting out and shooting, I wouldn’t take this course if it were free and they provided the ammo.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:28:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 11:29:34 PM EST by Shootindave]
T/C Compass bought for $220.

100y. 140g ELDM, 40.7g H4350.

5 shots

Attachment Attached File


...... sideways pictures......
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:29:30 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By heavymetal762:


I think I see where he's going with the class. should be interesting and provide some insight into shooting many people here apparently missed in their own shooting education.
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Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
Originally Posted By thesilvercord:
Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:
Originally Posted By thesilvercord:
Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:
Originally Posted By Notcalifornialegal:
Am I retarded or am I correct in reading this as an actual requirement?
I could see it maybe being an $800 minimum just to keep people from showing up and wasting everyone's time with some airsoft scope that won't hold zero.

But then you could get a decent $750 rifle and throw on cheap $50 scope and get the same result.


I'd like to try it with my SCAR, longer barrel and Vortex 1-10, but that's a little over $800.
Wait, so it's a max value of $800? That's retarded


Yup. He said something like “think your dad’s old hunting rifle”. Doesn’t want a bunch of guys bringing tier 1 shit for this particular one.


I think I see where he's going with the class. should be interesting and provide some insight into shooting many people here apparently missed in their own shooting education.


Exactly this. I believe you get it. I applaud him for offering this class. I would like to take it myself.  Like I said, some here are missing the purpose of this entirely.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:29:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:


Do you carry your $5k LR rig with you everywhere? What if you're away from home when SHTF and you have to make do with your in-laws neighbor's 1960s era deer rifle? If I have my normal LR rig and my Kestrel and my ballistic calculator I can ring steel first shot at 1000 yards. But if I'm caught with none of that? Then what? This isn't a beginner class.
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Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it's in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?



If you cant get shit done with a $800 rig you need help.

Yes some rifles and optics will help but honestly if a $400 remington or savage doesn't do 95% of what you need then you probably dont need this class

If everything can be learned using an 800 dollar rifle and scope, then why bother mandating an upper limit?


Do you carry your $5k LR rig with you everywhere? What if you're away from home when SHTF and you have to make do with your in-laws neighbor's 1960s era deer rifle? If I have my normal LR rig and my Kestrel and my ballistic calculator I can ring steel first shot at 1000 yards. But if I'm caught with none of that? Then what? This isn't a beginner class.

Picking up a neighbor's 1960's deer rifle and making 600 yard shots is well into fantasy land. Even if you're lucky enough to pick one up that's been zeroed in the last decade, odds are there won't be any ammo for it around. If you want to train to do that, nobody's stopping you. I just think it's silly to go to a class to learn things using worse equipment than you already have.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:30:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dipper:


Exactly this. I believe you get it. I applaud him for offering this class. I would like to take it myself.  Like I said, some here are missing the purpose of this entirely.
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Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By heavymetal762:
Originally Posted By thesilvercord:
Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:
Originally Posted By thesilvercord:
Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:
Originally Posted By Notcalifornialegal:
Am I retarded or am I correct in reading this as an actual requirement?
I could see it maybe being an $800 minimum just to keep people from showing up and wasting everyone's time with some airsoft scope that won't hold zero.

But then you could get a decent $750 rifle and throw on cheap $50 scope and get the same result.


I'd like to try it with my SCAR, longer barrel and Vortex 1-10, but that's a little over $800.
Wait, so it's a max value of $800? That's retarded


Yup. He said something like “think your dad’s old hunting rifle”. Doesn’t want a bunch of guys bringing tier 1 shit for this particular one.


I think I see where he's going with the class. should be interesting and provide some insight into shooting many people here apparently missed in their own shooting education.


Exactly this. I believe you get it. I applaud him for offering this class. I would like to take it myself.  Like I said, some here are missing the purpose of this entirely.

Good thing we have you to explain how we're missing the point, and then not explain the point.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:33:30 PM EST
The arrogance in this thread is amazing.
The rifle is the least fucking important piece of the weapon system in question.
Anyone who thinks you can't learn valuable "scout sniper" skills and tactics with anything less than a tier 1 firearm should go back to watching Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher.
No, he probably won't be ringing steel at 1km using a Savage 10 and PA scope, but that doesn't mean he can't learn a lot about how to use that rig for the stated goals.

Hell, you can learn sniper skills with an old Mosin Nagant with iron sights.
It's been done.  Effectively.


(Speaking of Mosins, I bought this whole package less than 3 years ago for well under that $800 limit, from the old guy who built it for the 1000 yd range just to prove 7.62x54R was a capable round.  It is.)

Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:34:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

Picking up a neighbor's 1960's deer rifle and making 600 yard shots is well into fantasy land. Even if you're lucky enough to pick one up that's been zeroed in the last decade, odds are there won't be any ammo for it around. If you want to train to do that, nobody's stopping you. I just think it's silly to go to a class to learn things using worse equipment than you already have.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it's in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?



If you cant get shit done with a $800 rig you need help.

Yes some rifles and optics will help but honestly if a $400 remington or savage doesn't do 95% of what you need then you probably dont need this class

If everything can be learned using an 800 dollar rifle and scope, then why bother mandating an upper limit?


Do you carry your $5k LR rig with you everywhere? What if you're away from home when SHTF and you have to make do with your in-laws neighbor's 1960s era deer rifle? If I have my normal LR rig and my Kestrel and my ballistic calculator I can ring steel first shot at 1000 yards. But if I'm caught with none of that? Then what? This isn't a beginner class.

Picking up a neighbor's 1960's deer rifle and making 600 yard shots is well into fantasy land. Even if you're lucky enough to pick one up that's been zeroed in the last decade, odds are there won't be any ammo for it around. If you want to train to do that, nobody's stopping you. I just think it's silly to go to a class to learn things using worse equipment than you already have.


American and probably world history was changed from 81m away with a true piece of shit Carcano.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:35:04 PM EST
In I guess. Curious to see what’s going on in here.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:35:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:36:30 PM EST
A lot of people think it’s the arrow and not the Indian. They are wrong.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:37:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
The arrogance in this thread is amazing.
The rifle is the least fucking important piece of the weapon system in question.
Anyone who thinks you can't learn valuable "scout sniper" skills and tactics with anything less than a tier 1 firearm should go back to watching Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher.
No, he probably won't be ringing steel at 1km using a Savage 10 and PA scope, but that doesn't mean he can't learn a lot about how to use that rig for the stated goals.

Hell, you can learn sniper skills with an old Mosin Nagant with iron sights.
It's been done.  Effectively.


(Speaking of Mosins, I bought this whole package less than 3 years ago for well under that $800 limit, from the old guy who built it for the 1000 yd range just to prove 7.62x54R was a capable round.  It is.)

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/mosin1_jpg-1837618.JPG

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/shortround_jpg-1837624.JPG
View Quote

That's great. But if I have better equipment available to me, why would I limit myself to inferior equipment?

Cheap scopes break. A lot. A class full of cheap scopes is going to have a lot of broken scopes.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:38:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


How are crimson trace scopes?
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:39:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:


American and probably world history was changed from 81m away with a true piece of shit Carcano.
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Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it's in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?



If you cant get shit done with a $800 rig you need help.

Yes some rifles and optics will help but honestly if a $400 remington or savage doesn't do 95% of what you need then you probably dont need this class

If everything can be learned using an 800 dollar rifle and scope, then why bother mandating an upper limit?


Do you carry your $5k LR rig with you everywhere? What if you're away from home when SHTF and you have to make do with your in-laws neighbor's 1960s era deer rifle? If I have my normal LR rig and my Kestrel and my ballistic calculator I can ring steel first shot at 1000 yards. But if I'm caught with none of that? Then what? This isn't a beginner class.

Picking up a neighbor's 1960's deer rifle and making 600 yard shots is well into fantasy land. Even if you're lucky enough to pick one up that's been zeroed in the last decade, odds are there won't be any ammo for it around. If you want to train to do that, nobody's stopping you. I just think it's silly to go to a class to learn things using worse equipment than you already have.


American and probably world history was changed from 81m away with a true piece of shit Carcano.

World history was also changed by a FN M1910 in .380 in Serbia. Doesn't mean I want to bring one to a pistol class.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:39:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

That's great. But if I have better equipment available to me, why would I limit myself to inferior equipment?

Cheap scopes break. A lot. A class full of cheap scopes is going to have a lot of broken scopes.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
The arrogance in this thread is amazing.
The rifle is the least fucking important piece of the weapon system in question.
Anyone who thinks you can't learn valuable "scout sniper" skills and tactics with anything less than a tier 1 firearm should go back to watching Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher.
No, he probably won't be ringing steel at 1km using a Savage 10 and PA scope, but that doesn't mean he can't learn a lot about how to use that rig for the stated goals.

Hell, you can learn sniper skills with an old Mosin Nagant with iron sights.
It's been done.  Effectively.


(Speaking of Mosins, I bought this whole package less than 3 years ago for well under that $800 limit, from the old guy who built it for the 1000 yd range just to prove 7.62x54R was a capable round.  It is.)

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/mosin1_jpg-1837618.JPG

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/shortround_jpg-1837624.JPG

That's great. But if I have better equipment available to me, why would I limit myself to inferior equipment?

Cheap scopes break. A lot. A class full of cheap scopes is going to have a lot of broken scopes.
So? A lot of urban sniper shots in Northern Ireland were taken with irons.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:40:07 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Shootindave:
T/C Compass bought for $220.

100y. 140g ELDM, 40.7g H4350.

5 shots

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/123862/2F7D080E-FC0E-4860-AAC4-931A5C1E2EF2_jpe-1837619.JPG

...... sideways pictures......
View Quote


Some people have binders containing hundreds if not thousands of targets just like that. Showing good groups at various yardages.   And they managed to shoot them with well bedded and tuned wood stocked and blued hunting rifles from various manufacturers from the 50s to present day.  Most are not even black either..... no one would call them "tactical". The rifles and the shooters don't care..... they just keep stacking one pill on top of another and holding MOA groups ( let's see who knows what I mean ) at distance. If you called their rifles inferior they would tell you to belly up and show you what you  could do.
Anything shot with these rifles would not know they died from a hit with an inferior rifle. Oh and most of these inferior rifles have scopes with an upper limit of 9x...... some 12x.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:41:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 20229mm:
A lot of people think it’s the arrow and not the Indian. They are wrong.
View Quote

What Indian picks a worse bow off the rack of his teepee than he has available? He has finely trimmed arrows with the finest cut fletching, but he leaves those at home in favor of ones made by is slow learning cousin.

Is that the kind of Indian you want to take hunting lessons from?
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:42:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
So? A lot of urban sniper shots in Northern Ireland were taken with irons.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
The arrogance in this thread is amazing.
The rifle is the least fucking important piece of the weapon system in question.
Anyone who thinks you can't learn valuable "scout sniper" skills and tactics with anything less than a tier 1 firearm should go back to watching Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher.
No, he probably won't be ringing steel at 1km using a Savage 10 and PA scope, but that doesn't mean he can't learn a lot about how to use that rig for the stated goals.

Hell, you can learn sniper skills with an old Mosin Nagant with iron sights.
It's been done.  Effectively.


(Speaking of Mosins, I bought this whole package less than 3 years ago for well under that $800 limit, from the old guy who built it for the 1000 yd range just to prove 7.62x54R was a capable round.  It is.)

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/mosin1_jpg-1837618.JPG

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/shortround_jpg-1837624.JPG

That's great. But if I have better equipment available to me, why would I limit myself to inferior equipment?

Cheap scopes break. A lot. A class full of cheap scopes is going to have a lot of broken scopes.
So? A lot of urban sniper shots in Northern Ireland were taken with irons.

I already said in this thread that if I were limiting a class to 800 dollars I would mandate iron sights.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:42:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
So? A lot of urban sniper shots in Northern Ireland were taken with irons.
View Quote

Who gives a shit? It’s 2021 optics are durable and variable powered. Lpvo for the win.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:42:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

World history was also changed by a FN M1910 in .380 in Serbia. Doesn't mean I want to bring one to a pistol class.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By NunyaBidness:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By Dipper:
Originally Posted By Greyswandir:
Ed Calderon is fucking solid. OP if you can, can you PM details on class if it's in the DFW area. Thanks!


I don't think some posters here have an understanding of what this is about.


I'd be delighted if you could enlighten us.


Naw, keep thinking on it though it might come to ya!


What fundamental skills are going to be learned using inferior equipment, especially if you already have superior equipment available to you?



If you cant get shit done with a $800 rig you need help.

Yes some rifles and optics will help but honestly if a $400 remington or savage doesn't do 95% of what you need then you probably dont need this class

If everything can be learned using an 800 dollar rifle and scope, then why bother mandating an upper limit?


Do you carry your $5k LR rig with you everywhere? What if you're away from home when SHTF and you have to make do with your in-laws neighbor's 1960s era deer rifle? If I have my normal LR rig and my Kestrel and my ballistic calculator I can ring steel first shot at 1000 yards. But if I'm caught with none of that? Then what? This isn't a beginner class.

Picking up a neighbor's 1960's deer rifle and making 600 yard shots is well into fantasy land. Even if you're lucky enough to pick one up that's been zeroed in the last decade, odds are there won't be any ammo for it around. If you want to train to do that, nobody's stopping you. I just think it's silly to go to a class to learn things using worse equipment than you already have.


American and probably world history was changed from 81m away with a true piece of shit Carcano.

World history was also changed by a FN M1910 in .380 in Serbia. Doesn't mean I want to bring one to a pistol class.


Get outside what you expect a sniper or LR class to be and think about this for what it is. There is room for both. I've done several traditional LR classes and I find the premise of this one interesting. This isn't a replacement for those classes, it's additional to that.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:43:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 11:43:58 PM EST by Shootindave]
Remington 700. $410 on sale this year. (With a fixed power SWFA)

Now that this is a picture thread.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:44:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:44:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
The arrogance in this thread is amazing.
The rifle is the least fucking important piece of the weapon system in question.
Anyone who thinks you can't learn valuable "scout sniper" skills and tactics with anything less than a tier 1 firearm should go back to watching Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher.
No, he probably won't be ringing steel at 1km using a Savage 10 and PA scope, but that doesn't mean he can't learn a lot about how to use that rig for the stated goals.

Hell, you can learn sniper skills with an old Mosin Nagant with iron sights.
It's been done.  Effectively.


(Speaking of Mosins, I bought this whole package less than 3 years ago for well under that $800 limit, from the old guy who built it for the 1000 yd range just to prove 7.62x54R was a capable round.  It is.)

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/mosin1_jpg-1837618.JPG

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/shortround_jpg-1837624.JPG
View Quote

He would be better off buying a 22lr bolt gun and a good scope and learning to shoot it out to 400 yards then a bunch of 308 trash.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:47:17 PM EST
Don't have a pic but it would be my Savage "Hog Hunter" with a Weaver Super Slam Euro-style 1.5-6, German Number 4 reticle.

Got the scope on a closeout, so the total for gun and scope was under $800.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:49:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:50:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
The arrogance in this thread is amazing.
The rifle is the least fucking important piece of the weapon system in question.
Anyone who thinks you can't learn valuable "scout sniper" skills and tactics with anything less than a tier 1 firearm should go back to watching Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher.
No, he probably won't be ringing steel at 1km using a Savage 10 and PA scope, but that doesn't mean he can't learn a lot about how to use that rig for the stated goals.

Hell, you can learn sniper skills with an old Mosin Nagant with iron sights.
It's been done.  Effectively.


(Speaking of Mosins, I bought this whole package less than 3 years ago for well under that $800 limit, from the old guy who built it for the 1000 yd range just to prove 7.62x54R was a capable round.  It is.)

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/mosin1_jpg-1837618.JPG

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/131420/shortround_jpg-1837624.JPG
View Quote


+1.
All of this.
I have an old Mauser 98 ( almost a twin to your rifle pictured .... in looks LOL! )
that I built years ago for 600 bucks glass included.  7-08. Shoots light out. I think that old inferior rifle would do very well in the stated course. It's been knocked around and dropped once while hunting. No problems. It shoots were I point it pretty darn well. It and I just don't know any better I guess.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:52:02 PM EST
If the situation ever came to where your survival was at stake, save the $800.  Steal a car. Find someone who has a better setup and run them over with the car. Now it's yours.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:53:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

That's great. But if I have better equipment available to me, why would I limit myself to inferior equipment?

Cheap scopes break. A lot. A class full of cheap scopes is going to have a lot of broken scopes.
View Quote
Well, maybe the instructor just wants to drive home the point that skills and tactics will win over brand names and price tags...every damn time?

Maybe he wants to prove to these students that if all they have at hand is an old deer rifle, they don't have to quit the fight and run away?

Maybe he wants everyone at a relatively even starting point so they all have a fair shot at "top gun?"

Maybe he just wants to run a training class where people come to improve their shooting, not a fashion show where people come to impress one another with their fancy gear?

FWIW, if you can't shoot with an $800 rig, a $4,000 rifle ain't gonna make you a sniper.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:56:05 PM EST
At today's prices you'd have to be darn careful to make that budget with a 91/30, and still have no ammo.

Will instructor buy your shit-rod if the course falls through?

Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:56:46 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Well, maybe the instructor just wants to drive home the point that skills and tactics will win over brand names and price tags...every damn time?

Maybe he wants to prove to these students that if all they have at hand is an old deer rifle, they don't have to quit the fight and run away?

Maybe he wants everyone at a relatively even starting point so they all have a fair shot at "top gun?"

Maybe he just wants to run a training class where people come to improve their shooting, not a fashion show where people come to impress one another with their fancy gear?

FWIW, if you can't shoot with an $800 rig, a $4,000 rifle ain't gonna make you a sniper.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

That's great. But if I have better equipment available to me, why would I limit myself to inferior equipment?

Cheap scopes break. A lot. A class full of cheap scopes is going to have a lot of broken scopes.
Well, maybe the instructor just wants to drive home the point that skills and tactics will win over brand names and price tags...every damn time?

Maybe he wants to prove to these students that if all they have at hand is an old deer rifle, they don't have to quit the fight and run away?

Maybe he wants everyone at a relatively even starting point so they all have a fair shot at "top gun?"

Maybe he just wants to run a training class where people come to improve their shooting, not a fashion show where people come to impress one another with their fancy gear?

FWIW, if you can't shoot with an $800 rig, a $4,000 rifle ain't gonna make you a sniper.

And how about when your 300 dollar scope breaks? How well are you going to shoot then?

There's a reason our snipers overseas aren't shooting with a Ruger American and a Leupold Freedom. Both of which are great products, but they're not designed for combat.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 11:58:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2021 1:50:46 AM EST by tyrex13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sean124:
Ruger American with an SWFA fixed 10x
View Quote


This. I just bought a Ruger American Predator 308 at Walmart for $396. Leaves you $400 for optics.

You can buy the parts from Ruger to convert the magwell to accept AICS mags for about $26

https://www.rugerforum.net/threads/can-you-convert-an-american-predator-stock-from-rotary-mags-to-ai-mags.388915/

I have this on one of my 10/22's and its pretty not bad.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-4-14x44mm-riflescope-acss-hud-dmr-308-223-reticle?quantity=1

This is the RA you want.



https://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/6974.html
Link Posted: 2/23/2021 12:00:49 AM EST
Howa heavy barrel varminter .308 with a Nikon
mil-dot scope, 4-12x and EGW mount and rings. I had this very setup and it would outshoot me.
Link Posted: 2/23/2021 12:00:51 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

That's great. But if I have better equipment available to me, why would I limit myself to inferior equipment?

Cheap scopes break. A lot. A class full of cheap scopes is going to have a lot of broken scopes.
View Quote


Think about this more from an industrial point of view where the rifle is a tool and not a cock extension.  

That high dollar rifle that would never break might be lost due to theft or fire.  How comfortable are you with the expensive rifle potentially being destroyed or lost?  Would you feel comfortable leaving your only expensive rifle somewhere not under your direct control?  Having a cheaper rig that you can buy 2-3 units offers a lot of security options while still meeting 80% of the capability of the uber rifle.

Link Posted: 2/23/2021 12:03:46 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xd675:


Think about this more from an industrial point of view where the rifle is a tool and not a cock extension.  

That high dollar rifle that would never break might be lost due to theft or fire.  How comfortable are you with the expensive rifle potentially being destroyed or lost?  Would you feel comfortable leaving your only expensive rifle somewhere not under your direct control?  Having a cheaper rig that you can buy 2-3 units offers a lot of security options while still meeting 80% of the capability of the uber rifle.

View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By xd675:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

That's great. But if I have better equipment available to me, why would I limit myself to inferior equipment?

Cheap scopes break. A lot. A class full of cheap scopes is going to have a lot of broken scopes.


Think about this more from an industrial point of view where the rifle is a tool and not a cock extension.  

That high dollar rifle that would never break might be lost due to theft or fire.  How comfortable are you with the expensive rifle potentially being destroyed or lost?  Would you feel comfortable leaving your only expensive rifle somewhere not under your direct control?  Having a cheaper rig that you can buy 2-3 units offers a lot of security options while still meeting 80% of the capability of the uber rifle.


That's what insurance is for. I would buy another.
Link Posted: 2/23/2021 12:06:16 AM EST
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