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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:42:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This might be true on a very long timescale, but marine biologists have recently observed coral and shellfish (including vital plankton) struggling to form shells. As the atmospheric CO2 rises, much of it is absorbed by the ocean. This makes the water more acidic, in the same way seltzer water is acidic (and why your dentist might yell at you if you're drinking too much). This acidity negatively impacts the ability of many marine organisms that depend on exoskeletons. Over the past few decades it has been observed that these exoskeletons have been progressively getting thinner as they struggle to grow in an increasingly acidic environment. Atmosphereic CO2 used to be much, much higher. "Atmospheric carbon dioxide levels fell during the Carboniferous Period from roughly 8 times the current level in the beginning, to a level similar to today's at the end." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous Yest, despite these high CO2 levels in the atmosphere, "The diversity of brachiopods and fusilinid foraminiferans, surged beginning in the Visean, continuing through the end of the Carboniferous, ... Both reef-building and solitary corals diversify and flourish; these include both rugose (for example, Caninia, Corwenia, Neozaphrentis), heterocorals, and tabulate (for example, Chladochonus, Michelinia) forms. Conularids were well represented by Conularia ..." (same source) How can this be? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:42:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The planet tends to self-regulate atmospheric CO2. A rise in CO2 stimulates coral and shellfish production which indirectly consumes CO2. Geologic history has demonstrated this over hundreds of millions of years. Those ice core samples are just fake news planted by big oil to deceive us. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:42:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that accurate? Converting solids or liquids into gas and releasing them into the atmosphere should slightly increase the pressure along its column, and thereby expand it upward slightly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So I am kinda retarded but ok lets say the air is 78% N 20.9% o2 Argon .9% Other Gases .17% co2 .03% Ok, math time....what other gases are being reduced if Co2 is going up, you can't have more than 100% Is there less o2? Like more Nox? I just don't see how 300-400 ppm going to 600ppm is going to kill the entire planet. I have 40 red balls, 30 green balls, and 30 yellow balls. 40% red, 30% green, 30% yellow. I now add 50 black balls. The percentages are now 26% red, 20% green, 20% yellow, and 33% black. Get it now? The atmosphere is constant volume. Your analogy is not. Is that accurate? Converting solids or liquids into gas and releasing them into the atmosphere should slightly increase the pressure along its column, and thereby expand it upward slightly. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:44:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all due respect, you don’t have the slightest clue how thermodynamics works. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Of course it is. We need plants. Plants need CO2. Plant take in CO2 and output O2. People and animals need O2. See how all that works together. We need oxygen and water to live, but breathing 100% oxygen for a little too long fucks up your lungs and I don't think I need to embellish the dangers of drowning. CO2 is an energetic molecule that holds onto heat well. It what makes the inside of your car or a greenhouse hot on a summer day. It logically follows that the more CO2 we dump into the atmosphere, the more global temperatures will rise. With all due respect, you don’t have the slightest clue how thermodynamics works. *thermogoddamnits |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:46:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you understand why we add humidity to cold air in the winter and we can lower the thermostat a couple degrees and still feel just as comfortable? The water vapor/humidity in the air holds the heat generated by your furnace or other heat adding device far better then [dry] air alone. No. Humans are cooled by perspiration, primarily, with secondary cooling vectors in radiation and respiration. The rate of evaporation of perspiration is determined by the micro-climate in the immediate vicinity of your skin - this is why "wind chill factor" is a thing, and why adding layers of clothing makes you feel warmer. Similarly an increase in environmental humidity lowers the rate at which perspiration evaporates which in turn reduces the rate at which it cools you. Meaning the actual environmental temperature can be lower for the same level of comfort. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:47:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We are at the low end of the geologic historical range but that doesn't really matter. The goal seems to be a lack of global change. Is that even a realistic goal? How warm do we want the planet to be? What can we actually do about it? What amount of human death and suffering will trying reach the goal of zero change cause? What other factors influence global temps? The relationships between all those answers would logically place reduction of CO2 emissions in the appropriate context. I'm not saying we shouldn't reduce or do many other things to be stewards of our environment. It's just that CO2 emissions are the focus because of social engineering reasons, not environmental ones. The emphasis on the west to reduce already low emissions while giving "developing" nations a pass for decades defies the logic the narrative of the green movement. Are you saying it doesn't matter from a scientific standpoint or a societal standpoint? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:50:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now lets go research what excess Co2 does do oceanic PH levels. Anyone who has EVER dealt with a reef tank knows excess Co2 is fucking bad bad news, will trash alkalinity levels and kill a tank right quick. Im no environo weenie and dont buy into the climate crisis. I do believe our oceans are in danger with excessive Co2 production and the correlation is basic chemistry anyone can do in their living room and see the effects. Oceanic acidity is indeed a concern, and the solution for that and elevated CO2 in general has been found to be making iron biologically available in "dead zones" of the oceans. Roughly 12 supertankers full of iron ore slurry per year is all that is required. Well within human capability, however we aren't doing that. Why? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:51:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://coral.org/en/coral-reefs-101/global-threats/ Ocean Acidification 48% of fossil fuel emissions are absorbed by the ocean. As oceans absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), they become more acidic. This affects the ability of reef-building corals to grow their skeletons and form the foundation for coral reefs. Weaker skeletons also make corals more vulnerable to disease and destruction by storms. In fact, research shows that when exposed to high levels of CO2, corals stop being productive and their risk of bleaching increases by up to 50%. And yet, during the Carboniferous Era when CO2 levels were 8 times current, coral thrived. How? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:53:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is true. C02 is in fact a greenhouse gas. If we increase c02 it will increase global temps. That's not a bad thing though. We can't increase it enough to cause harm to life. At the levels we are capable of the result is expanding tropical zones, expanding fertile land and much more agressive plant growth along with higher oxygen levels that come with more plant growth. Higher c02 and temps are absolutely great for humans and everything else on the planet other than arctic animals maybe most of which will adapt. The problem with warmer climates is it may cause property problems in coastal areas and as tropical zones expand the arid zones also move. So maybe mexico and the southwest become a bit more tropical climate but flyover America becomes desert. It could potential hurt American farming but thawed ground in Canada and russia would open up and humans would farm those regions more. Overall the earth would grow more food but the best farming climates would shift. Climate change is an economic disruption for governments. Not a danger to people. Unless it gets colder then we all starve and die. Do you even realize the miniscule variations in temperature and PH balance that affect/kill coral reefs and how their demise would throw the ocean into chaos and majorly fuck the rest of the life on earth? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 12:59:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We need oxygen and water to live, but breathing 100% oxygen for a little too long fucks up your lungs and I don't think I need to embellish the dangers of drowning. CO2 is an energetic molecule that holds onto heat well. It what makes the inside of your car or a greenhouse hot on a summer day. It logically follows that the more CO2 we dump into the atmosphere, the more global temperatures will rise. The inside of the car and the greenhouse are hot because the air is trapped, preventing heat loss due to convection. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:03:18 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that accurate? Converting solids or liquids into gas and releasing them into the atmosphere should slightly increase the pressure along its column, and thereby expand it upward slightly. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:03:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We know that there have been points in the planet’s history with much higher CO2 levels than now. Did the oceans die then? Yes. Im living on a peninsula formed from million/billion year old coral reefs. Did the "oceans" die entirely? Well, no... But a fuck ton of life did in that process and we can only speculate how life would have been had it not made those shifts. What we CAN see right now is not looking good for humans as inhabitants with the current trends in our oceans. Will nature find balance again? Probably... But what timeline does that equilibrium happen in? Will we as humans be able to adapt/evolve to the changes that are detrimental to our current path and natures timeline to correct or find its new balance point. Or will the next versions of life be digging up our teeth like I dig up Megladon teeth? 
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:04:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you even realize the miniscule variations in temperature and PH balance that affect/kill coral reefs and how their demise would throw the ocean into chaos and majorly fuck the rest of the life on earth? Can you explain how coral thrived, according to the fossil record, during periods of Earth's history when atmospheric carbon dioxide levels were many, many times greater than current ones? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:05:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. Humans are cooled by perspiration, primarily, with secondary cooling vectors in radiation and respiration. The rate of evaporation of perspiration is determined by the micro-climate in the immediate vicinity of your skin - this is why "wind chill factor" is a thing, and why adding layers of clothing makes you feel warmer. Similarly an increase in environmental humidity lowers the rate at which perspiration evaporates which in turn reduces the rate at which it cools you. Meaning the actual environmental temperature can be lower for the same level of comfort. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Do you understand why we add humidity to cold air in the winter and we can lower the thermostat a couple degrees and still feel just as comfortable? The water vapor/humidity in the air holds the heat generated by your furnace or other heat adding device far better then [dry] air alone. No. Humans are cooled by perspiration, primarily, with secondary cooling vectors in radiation and respiration. The rate of evaporation of perspiration is determined by the micro-climate in the immediate vicinity of your skin - this is why "wind chill factor" is a thing, and why adding layers of clothing makes you feel warmer. Similarly an increase in environmental humidity lowers the rate at which perspiration evaporates which in turn reduces the rate at which it cools you. Meaning the actual environmental temperature can be lower for the same level of comfort. However: Cold and dry air tends to insulate better than cold wet air. When the body is cool, perspiration does not happen in a significant way. While evaporation in cold and dry air is very efficient, it doesn't generally happen when you are sitting around inside in the winter. All else being equal, a person sitting around in a 60 degree room will stay warmer when the relative humidity is 20% or less than if the RH is 85+%. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:07:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you even realize the miniscule variations in temperature and PH balance that affect/kill coral reefs and how their demise would throw the ocean into chaos and majorly fuck the rest of the life on earth? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is true. C02 is in fact a greenhouse gas. If we increase c02 it will increase global temps. That's not a bad thing though. We can't increase it enough to cause harm to life. At the levels we are capable of the result is expanding tropical zones, expanding fertile land and much more agressive plant growth along with higher oxygen levels that come with more plant growth. Higher c02 and temps are absolutely great for humans and everything else on the planet other than arctic animals maybe most of which will adapt. The problem with warmer climates is it may cause property problems in coastal areas and as tropical zones expand the arid zones also move. So maybe mexico and the southwest become a bit more tropical climate but flyover America becomes desert. It could potential hurt American farming but thawed ground in Canada and russia would open up and humans would farm those regions more. Overall the earth would grow more food but the best farming climates would shift. Climate change is an economic disruption for governments. Not a danger to people. Unless it gets colder then we all starve and die. Do you even realize the miniscule variations in temperature and PH balance that affect/kill coral reefs and how their demise would throw the ocean into chaos and majorly fuck the rest of the life on earth? The crown of thorns starfish is probably A far greater risk to coral reefs then a bit more co2. They have greatly increased in numbers for unknown reasons [lack of predators] and while ''climate change'' is much more ''eco-terror'' friendly, that starfish is probably more of an issue then the scientific community wants to admit. They destroy huge swaths of coral, especially in certain areas of the world. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:09:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet, during the Carboniferous Era when CO2 levels were 8 times current, coral thrived. How? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://coral.org/en/coral-reefs-101/global-threats/ Ocean Acidification 48% of fossil fuel emissions are absorbed by the ocean. As oceans absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), they become more acidic. This affects the ability of reef-building corals to grow their skeletons and form the foundation for coral reefs. Weaker skeletons also make corals more vulnerable to disease and destruction by storms. In fact, research shows that when exposed to high levels of CO2, corals stop being productive and their risk of bleaching increases by up to 50%. And yet, during the Carboniferous Era when CO2 levels were 8 times current, coral thrived. How? Its a lot harder to screw up a huge, open and stable system like the oceans. Notice how people tend to equate these huge alarmist issues with small things that they deal with, like a hot car or a fish tank? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:10:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The water vapor thing is definately somthing...I remember reading an article about the airliners contrails having an effect of local heat from them. More so, than the co2 the jet engines emitted. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: .04% isn't that roughly 400ppm? Big Daddy Randall Carlson said if you start getting under 200ppm of Co2, the planet is rightfully fucked because plants can't photosyntheisze. So....I am really starting to think the co2 in the air being a leading cause of climate change is total horse shit tbh. No shit? Welcome aboard. Water vapor has a much greater effect, but you cannot tax it, or have water vapor credits. The water vapor thing is definately somthing...I remember reading an article about the airliners contrails having an effect of local heat from them. More so, than the co2 the jet engines emitted. and yet people are pushing hard for Hydrogen.....what are the by products from hydrogen fuels? Water vapor is a big one. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:14:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet, during the Carboniferous Era when CO2 levels were 8 times current, coral thrived. How? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://coral.org/en/coral-reefs-101/global-threats/ Ocean Acidification 48% of fossil fuel emissions are absorbed by the ocean. As oceans absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), they become more acidic. This affects the ability of reef-building corals to grow their skeletons and form the foundation for coral reefs. Weaker skeletons also make corals more vulnerable to disease and destruction by storms. In fact, research shows that when exposed to high levels of CO2, corals stop being productive and their risk of bleaching increases by up to 50%. And yet, during the Carboniferous Era when CO2 levels were 8 times current, coral thrived. How? It thrived in the state it was use to living at the time, and changes at that time killed it off. Coral of that time is not the coral of this time. We tend to think in "human" timelines, when we should be thinking in longer time lines. Nature does eventually find a way to find equilibrium. The question is can nature find that equilibrium and can the species reliant on the current balance adapt fast enough to continue to support life as required on the BIGGER scale. As of right now its not trending very well. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:14:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The atmosphere can become more dense. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is that accurate? Converting solids or liquids into gas and releasing them into the atmosphere should slightly increase the pressure along its column, and thereby expand it upward slightly. You're contending that the volume of the atmosphere is constant? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:16:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Studies have shown that CO2 levels follow changes in climate, not the other way around. When the planet gets warmer, CO2 levels rise. We are currently in a CO2 drought, plants need more than the current levels to thrive. I've yet to see a climate activist address this ice core data. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:16:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The atmosphere is constant volume. Your analogy is not. Is it? PV=NRT is a thing....Pressure and temperature do change, meaning volume cannot be a constant. Gases are released into the atmosphere gases from space to get pulled into Earth's gravity well. Cosmic rays and other particles impact gas molecules at the upper edges of the atmosphere and some bits of the gases are knocked into space. Dust and other things fall to earth and change the mass (slightly every year) the increase in gravity will affect the volume of the atmosphere. It cannot be a constant. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:17:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you explain how coral thrived, according to the fossil record, during periods of Earth's history when atmospheric carbon dioxide levels were many, many times greater than current ones? The corals of that era were adapted to that environment. Can you explain why those corals are now dead? lol |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:27:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The crown of thorns starfish is probably A far greater risk to coral reefs then a bit more co2. They have greatly increased in numbers for unknown reasons [lack of predators] and while ''climate change'' is much more ''eco-terror'' friendly, that starfish is probably more of an issue then the scientific community wants to admit. They destroy huge swaths of coral, especially in certain areas of the world. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is true. C02 is in fact a greenhouse gas. If we increase c02 it will increase global temps. That's not a bad thing though. We can't increase it enough to cause harm to life. At the levels we are capable of the result is expanding tropical zones, expanding fertile land and much more agressive plant growth along with higher oxygen levels that come with more plant growth. Higher c02 and temps are absolutely great for humans and everything else on the planet other than arctic animals maybe most of which will adapt. The problem with warmer climates is it may cause property problems in coastal areas and as tropical zones expand the arid zones also move. So maybe mexico and the southwest become a bit more tropical climate but flyover America becomes desert. It could potential hurt American farming but thawed ground in Canada and russia would open up and humans would farm those regions more. Overall the earth would grow more food but the best farming climates would shift. Climate change is an economic disruption for governments. Not a danger to people. Unless it gets colder then we all starve and die. Do you even realize the miniscule variations in temperature and PH balance that affect/kill coral reefs and how their demise would throw the ocean into chaos and majorly fuck the rest of the life on earth? The crown of thorns starfish is probably A far greater risk to coral reefs then a bit more co2. They have greatly increased in numbers for unknown reasons [lack of predators] and while ''climate change'' is much more ''eco-terror'' friendly, that starfish is probably more of an issue then the scientific community wants to admit. They destroy huge swaths of coral, especially in certain areas of the world. I wont argue their impact, but lets ask ourselves the why's? (hint... the proliferations/declinations/adaptations of species is in direct colorations to its environments) In a very comprehensive geographic study, Benzie examined allozyme loci variation in 20 populations of A. planci, throughout the Pacific and Indian Oceans.[13] The most striking result was a very marked discontinuity between the Indian and Pacific Ocean populations. Those, however, off northern Western Australia had a strong Pacific affinity. With the exception of the very strong connection of southern Japanese populations to the Great Barrier Reef populations, the patterns of variation within regions were consistent with isolation by distance. Again, the pattern of decreasing levels of successful larval dispersal over long distances is apparent. Benzie suggests that the divergence between Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean populations began at least 1.6 million years ago and is likely to reflect responses to changes in climate and sea level. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown-of-thorns_starfish |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:30:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wont argue their impact, but lets ask ourselves the why's? (hint... the proliferations/declinations/adaptations of species is in direct colorations to its environments) In a very comprehensive geographic study, Benzie examined allozyme loci variation in 20 populations of A. planci, throughout the Pacific and Indian Oceans.[13] The most striking result was a very marked discontinuity between the Indian and Pacific Ocean populations. Those, however, off northern Western Australia had a strong Pacific affinity. With the exception of the very strong connection of southern Japanese populations to the Great Barrier Reef populations, the patterns of variation within regions were consistent with isolation by distance. Again, the pattern of decreasing levels of successful larval dispersal over long distances is apparent. Benzie suggests that the divergence between Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean populations began at least 1.6 million years ago and is likely to reflect responses to changes in climate and sea level. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown-of-thorns_starfish Wiki is noted for it's AGW propaganda BTW. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:34:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because the oceans of Earth are not a small aquarium. It's easy to screw up the balance of a small, unstable, mostly closed system like a reef aquarium. Its a lot harder to screw up a huge, open and stable system like the oceans. Notice how people tend to equate these huge alarmist issues with small things that they deal with, like a hot car or a fish tank? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://coral.org/en/coral-reefs-101/global-threats/ Ocean Acidification 48% of fossil fuel emissions are absorbed by the ocean. As oceans absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), they become more acidic. This affects the ability of reef-building corals to grow their skeletons and form the foundation for coral reefs. Weaker skeletons also make corals more vulnerable to disease and destruction by storms. In fact, research shows that when exposed to high levels of CO2, corals stop being productive and their risk of bleaching increases by up to 50%. And yet, during the Carboniferous Era when CO2 levels were 8 times current, coral thrived. How? Its a lot harder to screw up a huge, open and stable system like the oceans. Notice how people tend to equate these huge alarmist issues with small things that they deal with, like a hot car or a fish tank? I've lived in fl for 50 years. In the 40 that I have been in the OCEAN diving, fishing and hunting. I have seen with my very own eyes basically the entire reef system fail off MY coast. The OCEAN is a closed system ON earth just the same as a tank in a living room. The SAME level of Co2 increase inside a living room will have the same impacts on the ocean, albeit different time lines due to volume of water and other factors. To dismiss or downplay it to any degree is absolutely foolish. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:42:14 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it? PV=NRT is a thing....Pressure and temperature do change, meaning volume cannot be a constant. Gases are released into the atmosphere gases from space to get pulled into Earth's gravity well. Cosmic rays and other particles impact gas molecules at the upper edges of the atmosphere and some bits of the gases are knocked into space. Dust and other things fall to earth and change the mass (slightly every year) the increase in gravity will affect the volume of the atmosphere. It cannot be a constant. Hold volume constant - V = nRT/P There is no constraint on T or P to maintain constant volume. The atmosphere is not an ideal gas, although we can get away with that simplification at low altitudes, it's not close at the outer edge of the atmosphere. The temperature profile through the atmosphere is another non intuitive detail. Consider the pressure, density, and temperature through the stratosphere where temperature increases while pressure decreases.  Don't neglect the non uniform acceleration of gravity across the atmosphere. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:43:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hold volume constant - V = nRT/P There is no constraint on T or P to maintain constant volume. The atmosphere is not an ideal gas, although we can get away with that simplification at low altitudes, it's not close at the outer edge of the atmosphere. The temperature profile through the atmosphere is another non intuitive detail. Consider the pressure, density, and temperature through the stratosphere where temperature increases while pressure decreases. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/atmslayers-2788523.gif So it is not a constant volume... link here to a good discussion |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 1:48:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've lived in fl for 50 years. In the 40 that I have been in the OCEAN diving, fishing and hunting. I have seen with my very own eyes basically the entire reef system fail off MY coast. The OCEAN is a closed system ON earth just the same as a tank in a living room. The SAME level of Co2 increase inside a living room will have the same impacts on the ocean, albeit different time lines due to volume of water and other factors. To dismiss or downplay it to any degree is absolutely foolish. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://coral.org/en/coral-reefs-101/global-threats/ Ocean Acidification 48% of fossil fuel emissions are absorbed by the ocean. As oceans absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), they become more acidic. This affects the ability of reef-building corals to grow their skeletons and form the foundation for coral reefs. Weaker skeletons also make corals more vulnerable to disease and destruction by storms. In fact, research shows that when exposed to high levels of CO2, corals stop being productive and their risk of bleaching increases by up to 50%. And yet, during the Carboniferous Era when CO2 levels were 8 times current, coral thrived. How? Its a lot harder to screw up a huge, open and stable system like the oceans. Notice how people tend to equate these huge alarmist issues with small things that they deal with, like a hot car or a fish tank? I've lived in fl for 50 years. In the 40 that I have been in the OCEAN diving, fishing and hunting. I have seen with my very own eyes basically the entire reef system fail off MY coast. The OCEAN is a closed system ON earth just the same as a tank in a living room. The SAME level of Co2 increase inside a living room will have the same impacts on the ocean, albeit different time lines due to volume of water and other factors. To dismiss or downplay it to any degree is absolutely foolish. There is absolutely no comparison between a small aquarium which exchanges gas with the room, receives artificial light, and nutrients from the various offerings from the owner and the ocean system. The ocean is: 1) stocked in ways and with organisms that you can't or don't put in tanks 2) stable as it is quintillions of times larger than the aquarium 3) always interacting with weather 4) always interacting with land and land animals 5) receiving direct sunlight 6) varied in temperature due to geography 7) billions of years old 8) interacting with volcanism 9) interacting with oil reserves 10) etc So yeah aside from all that and much more, it's exactly the same. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:05:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistorySpeaking of fish tanks. I pump CO2 into mine through a reactor in the filter system drops ph one full point . It makes the plants grow really fuckin fast and huge and it doesn't hurt the fish. It actually makes the water cleaner as the plants goble up all the nitrates and pump out oxygen way faster with c02 injection.  |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:07:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We need oxygen and water to live, but breathing 100% oxygen for a little too long fucks up your lungs and I don't think I need to embellish the dangers of drowning. CO2 is an energetic molecule that holds onto heat well. It what makes the inside of your car or a greenhouse hot on a summer day. It logically follows that the more CO2 we dump into the atmosphere, the more global temperatures will rise. You can't possibly be this stupid. You can't. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:15:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither system is completely closed. There is absolutely no comparison between a small aquarium which exchanges gas with the room, receives artificial light, and nutrients from the various offerings from the owner and the ocean system. The ocean is: 1) stocked in ways and with organisms that you can't or don't put in tanks 2) stable as it is quintillions of times larger than the aquarium 3) always interacting with weather 4) always interacting with land and land animals 5) receiving direct sunlight 6) varied in temperature due to geography 7) billions of years old 8) interacting with volcanism 9) interacting with oil reserves 10) etc So yeah aside from all that and much more, it's exactly the same. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: https://coral.org/en/coral-reefs-101/global-threats/ Ocean Acidification 48% of fossil fuel emissions are absorbed by the ocean. As oceans absorb carbon dioxide (CO2), they become more acidic. This affects the ability of reef-building corals to grow their skeletons and form the foundation for coral reefs. Weaker skeletons also make corals more vulnerable to disease and destruction by storms. In fact, research shows that when exposed to high levels of CO2, corals stop being productive and their risk of bleaching increases by up to 50%. And yet, during the Carboniferous Era when CO2 levels were 8 times current, coral thrived. How? Its a lot harder to screw up a huge, open and stable system like the oceans. Notice how people tend to equate these huge alarmist issues with small things that they deal with, like a hot car or a fish tank? I've lived in fl for 50 years. In the 40 that I have been in the OCEAN diving, fishing and hunting. I have seen with my very own eyes basically the entire reef system fail off MY coast. The OCEAN is a closed system ON earth just the same as a tank in a living room. The SAME level of Co2 increase inside a living room will have the same impacts on the ocean, albeit different time lines due to volume of water and other factors. To dismiss or downplay it to any degree is absolutely foolish. There is absolutely no comparison between a small aquarium which exchanges gas with the room, receives artificial light, and nutrients from the various offerings from the owner and the ocean system. The ocean is: 1) stocked in ways and with organisms that you can't or don't put in tanks 2) stable as it is quintillions of times larger than the aquarium 3) always interacting with weather 4) always interacting with land and land animals 5) receiving direct sunlight 6) varied in temperature due to geography 7) billions of years old 8) interacting with volcanism 9) interacting with oil reserves 10) etc So yeah aside from all that and much more, it's exactly the same. There is absolutely no comparison between a small aquarium which exchanges gas with the room (you fail to understand pressure), receives artificial light (you fail to understand UV waves), and nutrients from the various offerings from the owner and the ocean system (you fail to understand what makes an aquarium thrive and what it needs). The ocean is: 1) stocked in ways and with organisms that you can't or don't put in tanks. Fail, Tanks are stocked live rock, live sand, live corals and fish that are mostly harvested from "the ocean". 2) stable as it is quintillions of times larger than the aquarium Fail again, its ALL relative to scale. Cause and effects are relative regardless of scale. 3) always interacting with weather Pretty sure hot. cold, and all other weather anomalies had impacts om my tanks current conditions. 4) always interacting with land and land animals Correct, human animals are fucking it all up. 5) receiving direct sunlight Fail again, light is light regardless of the "source". Its just RF wavelengths. Intensity variables may be debatable to a degree. 6) varied in temperature due to geography Fail again, each geographical location is dealing with its own issues. 7) billions of years old Fail again. Show me a billion year old coral please. 8) interacting with volcanism Fail again as this is not in relation to man made causes. 9) interacting with oil reserves Fail again as this is not in relation to man made causes. Unless we are discussing oil spills. 10) etc And den? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:18:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking of fish tanks. I pump CO2 into mine through a reactor in the filter system drops ph one full point . It makes the plants grow really fuckin fast and huge and it doesn't hurt the fish. It actually makes the water cleaner as the plants goble up all the nitrates and pump out oxygen way faster with c02 injection. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173081/IMG_20230325_160254_1-2788543.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking of fish tanks. I pump CO2 into mine through a reactor in the filter system drops ph one full point . It makes the plants grow really fuckin fast and huge and it doesn't hurt the fish. It actually makes the water cleaner as the plants goble up all the nitrates and pump out oxygen way faster with c02 injection. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173081/IMG_20230325_160254_1-2788543.jpg Now do a reef tank and pump some Co2 into it. You are beefing up your "plants" to assist in your nitrogen cycles. Very disingenuous argument. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:36:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is absolutely no comparison between a small aquarium which exchanges gas with the room (you fail to understand pressure), receives artificial light (you fail to understand UV waves), and nutrients from the various offerings from the owner and the ocean system (you fail to understand what makes an aquarium thrive and what it needs). The ocean is: 1) stocked in ways and with organisms that you can't or don't put in tanks. Fail, Tanks are stocked live rock, live sand, live corals and fish that are mostly harvested from "the ocean". 2) stable as it is quintillions of times larger than the aquarium Fail again, its ALL relative to scale. Cause and effects are relative regardless of scale. 3) always interacting with weather Pretty sure hot. cold, and all other weather anomalies had impacts om my tanks current conditions. 4) always interacting with land and land animals Correct, human animals are fucking it all up. 5) receiving direct sunlight Fail again, light is light regardless of the "source". Its just RF wavelengths. Intensity variables may be debatable to a degree. 6) varied in temperature due to geography Fail again, each geographical location is dealing with its own issues. 7) billions of years old Fail again. Show me a billion year old coral please. 8) interacting with volcanism Fail again as this is not in relation to man made causes. 9) interacting with oil reserves Fail again as this is not in relation to man made causes. Unless we are discussing oil spills. 10) etc And den?  I am trying hard to find a single thing you stated that isn't completely insane or demonstrates any understanding of how oceans differ from your little box of water. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:40:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. Im living on a peninsula formed from million/billion year old coral reefs. Did the "oceans" die entirely? Well, no... But a fuck ton of life did in that process and we can only speculate how life would have been had it not made those shifts. What we CAN see right now is not looking good for humans as inhabitants with the current trends in our oceans. Will nature find balance again? Probably... But what timeline does that equilibrium happen in? Will we as humans be able to adapt/evolve to the changes that are detrimental to our current path and natures timeline to correct or find its new balance point. Or will the next versions of life be digging up our teeth like I dig up Megladon teeth? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We know that there have been points in the planet’s history with much higher CO2 levels than now. Did the oceans die then? Yes. Im living on a peninsula formed from million/billion year old coral reefs. Did the "oceans" die entirely? Well, no... But a fuck ton of life did in that process and we can only speculate how life would have been had it not made those shifts. What we CAN see right now is not looking good for humans as inhabitants with the current trends in our oceans. Will nature find balance again? Probably... But what timeline does that equilibrium happen in? Will we as humans be able to adapt/evolve to the changes that are detrimental to our current path and natures timeline to correct or find its new balance point. Or will the next versions of life be digging up our teeth like I dig up Megladon teeth? Is CO2 the reason for that? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:40:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking of fish tanks. I pump CO2 into mine through a reactor in the filter system drops ph one full point . It makes the plants grow really fuckin fast and huge and it doesn't hurt the fish. It actually makes the water cleaner as the plants goble up all the nitrates and pump out oxygen way faster with c02 injection. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173081/IMG_20230325_160254_1-2788543.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking of fish tanks. I pump CO2 into mine through a reactor in the filter system drops ph one full point . It makes the plants grow really fuckin fast and huge and it doesn't hurt the fish. It actually makes the water cleaner as the plants goble up all the nitrates and pump out oxygen way faster with c02 injection. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173081/IMG_20230325_160254_1-2788543.jpg |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:41:24 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is CO2 the reason for that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: We know that there have been points in the planet's history with much higher CO2 levels than now. Did the oceans die then? Yes. Im living on a peninsula formed from million/billion year old coral reefs. Did the "oceans" die entirely? Well, no... But a fuck ton of life did in that process and we can only speculate how life would have been had it not made those shifts. What we CAN see right now is not looking good for humans as inhabitants with the current trends in our oceans. Will nature find balance again? Probably... But what timeline does that equilibrium happen in? Will we as humans be able to adapt/evolve to the changes that are detrimental to our current path and natures timeline to correct or find its new balance point. Or will the next versions of life be digging up our teeth like I dig up Megladon teeth? Is CO2 the reason for that? 
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:43:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is absolutely no comparison between a small aquarium which exchanges gas with the room (you fail to understand pressure), receives artificial light (you fail to understand UV waves), and nutrients from the various offerings from the owner and the ocean system (you fail to understand what makes an aquarium thrive and what it needs). The ocean is: 1) stocked in ways and with organisms that you can't or don't put in tanks. Fail, Tanks are stocked live rock, live sand, live corals and fish that are mostly harvested from "the ocean". Speaking of "fail" - yes the tanks are stocked with things taken form the ocean, but not ALL things in the same proportion - think that matters? Seen any of these in a reef tank?   2) stable as it is quintillions of times larger than the aquarium Fail again, its ALL relative to scale. Cause and effects are relative regardless of scale. Again fail. The TIMELINE of the delta in any chane is indeed relative BECAUE OF , not regarless of, scale. 3) always interacting with weather Pretty sure hot. cold, and all other weather anomalies had impacts om my tanks current conditions. Your tank is not the oceans of the world, and thus you can't use your tank as an analogue of the world's oceans. 4) always interacting with land and land animals Correct, human animals are fucking it all up. Fail - humans are part of nature. Not something seperate. A traffic jam in L.A. is every bit as natural as a termite mound in Africa, and they both affect the atmosphere. 5) receiving direct sunlight Fail again, light is light regardless of the "source". Its just RF wavelengths. Intensity variables may be debatable to a degree. Fail again. different sources have different proportions and intesnities of those "just RF wavelengths". 6) varied in temperature due to geography Fail again, each geographical location is dealing with its own issues. The atmosphere is global, isn't it? 7) billions of years old Fail again. Show me a billion year old coral please. From whence did modern day coral derive? 8) interacting with volcanism Fail again as this is not in relation to man made causes. Fail again. The atmosphere and the global flaura and fauna care not whence the changes come, be they natural or "man made". Thus when discussing the crippling of modern Western industrial society, comparing the proportion of such things to their natural counterparts is perfectly rational. From where comes this "only man is vile" bullshit? 9) interacting with oil reserves Fail again as this is not in relation to man made causes. Unless we are discussing oil spills. Natural oil seeps are a thing. La Brea tar pits anyone? Thus the natural environment is acclimated to dealing with petroleum to a certain extent. There are even bacteria that eat it. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:47:10 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Clearly you are utterly out of your element and I refuse to waste much more of my time on this nonsense. Oh, you keep a reef aquarium. Good for you. Somehow you think that makes you an expert on oceans. I am trying hard to find a single thing you stated that isn't completely insane or demonstrates any understanding of how oceans differ from your little box of water. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is absolutely no comparison between a small aquarium which exchanges gas with the room (you fail to understand pressure), receives artificial light (you fail to understand UV waves), and nutrients from the various offerings from the owner and the ocean system (you fail to understand what makes an aquarium thrive and what it needs). The ocean is: 1) stocked in ways and with organisms that you can't or don't put in tanks. Fail, Tanks are stocked live rock, live sand, live corals and fish that are mostly harvested from "the ocean". 2) stable as it is quintillions of times larger than the aquarium Fail again, its ALL relative to scale. Cause and effects are relative regardless of scale. 3) always interacting with weather Pretty sure hot. cold, and all other weather anomalies had impacts om my tanks current conditions. 4) always interacting with land and land animals Correct, human animals are fucking it all up. 5) receiving direct sunlight Fail again, light is light regardless of the "source". Its just RF wavelengths. Intensity variables may be debatable to a degree. 6) varied in temperature due to geography Fail again, each geographical location is dealing with its own issues. 7) billions of years old Fail again. Show me a billion year old coral please. 8) interacting with volcanism Fail again as this is not in relation to man made causes. 9) interacting with oil reserves Fail again as this is not in relation to man made causes. Unless we are discussing oil spills. 10) etc And den? I am trying hard to find a single thing you stated that isn't completely insane or demonstrates any understanding of how oceans differ from your little box of water. K den... put your head in the sand and ignore as you wish. Keeping a fucking aquarium has only EDUCATED me MOAR on how marine life/oceans fucking WORK and the ill effects of it NOT having what it NEEDS to LIVE, and what fucking kills it ALL. 
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:48:56 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except we've had almost total global glaciation when carbon was as high as 6%... Not only hasn't a causal relationship between high CO2 been proven, but they've failed to even prove a correlation... I used to have a really good historical chart that showed no correlation whatsoever. Thousands of years where co2 was up and down, temperatures all over the place with no discernable pattern. Wish I could find that one. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:49:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is CO2 the reason for that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: We know that there have been points in the planet’s history with much higher CO2 levels than now. Did the oceans die then? Yes. Im living on a peninsula formed from million/billion year old coral reefs. Did the "oceans" die entirely? Well, no... But a fuck ton of life did in that process and we can only speculate how life would have been had it not made those shifts. What we CAN see right now is not looking good for humans as inhabitants with the current trends in our oceans. Will nature find balance again? Probably... But what timeline does that equilibrium happen in? Will we as humans be able to adapt/evolve to the changes that are detrimental to our current path and natures timeline to correct or find its new balance point. Or will the next versions of life be digging up our teeth like I dig up Megladon teeth? Is CO2 the reason for that? Are you arguing that it didnt play its part? Or that Co2 has a net effect of zero impacts? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:52:04 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you arguing that it didnt play its part? Or that Co2 has a net effect of zero impacts? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We know that there have been points in the planet’s history with much higher CO2 levels than now. Did the oceans die then? Yes. Im living on a peninsula formed from million/billion year old coral reefs. Did the "oceans" die entirely? Well, no... But a fuck ton of life did in that process and we can only speculate how life would have been had it not made those shifts. What we CAN see right now is not looking good for humans as inhabitants with the current trends in our oceans. Will nature find balance again? Probably... But what timeline does that equilibrium happen in? Will we as humans be able to adapt/evolve to the changes that are detrimental to our current path and natures timeline to correct or find its new balance point. Or will the next versions of life be digging up our teeth like I dig up Megladon teeth? Is CO2 the reason for that? Are you arguing that it didnt play its part? Or that Co2 has a net effect of zero impacts? I’m not arguing anything- it was an honest question. If the reefs died, do we know that it was 100% due to CO2/acidity, or was it some combination of things? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:52:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, CO2 is bad for his reef tank, so apparently yes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We know that there have been points in the planet's history with much higher CO2 levels than now. Did the oceans die then? Yes. Im living on a peninsula formed from million/billion year old coral reefs. Did the "oceans" die entirely? Well, no... But a fuck ton of life did in that process and we can only speculate how life would have been had it not made those shifts. What we CAN see right now is not looking good for humans as inhabitants with the current trends in our oceans. Will nature find balance again? Probably... But what timeline does that equilibrium happen in? Will we as humans be able to adapt/evolve to the changes that are detrimental to our current path and natures timeline to correct or find its new balance point. Or will the next versions of life be digging up our teeth like I dig up Megladon teeth? Is CO2 the reason for that? Youtube has millions of reef tank videos. Please go find one where the person is "supplementing" Co2 to support the health of corals. Ill be here waiting. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:52:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Plants? The entire biome depends on the oceans. No oceanic photosynthesis by phytoplankton, and the planet dies. The whole food chain for terrestrial life actually begins in the oceans. Leftists hate humanity so much that they are trying to murder every single human on the planet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: .04% isn't that roughly 400ppm? Big Daddy Randall Carlson said if you start getting under 200ppm of Co2, the planet is rightfully fucked because plants can't photosyntheisze. Plants? The entire biome depends on the oceans. No oceanic photosynthesis by phytoplankton, and the planet dies. The whole food chain for terrestrial life actually begins in the oceans. Leftists hate humanity so much that they are trying to murder every single human on the planet. I wonder if the leftists no longer consider photosynthesis to be a valid scientific process? Just like sequestration- what do they think is the consequence of pumping not just a carbon atom miles down into the earths crust, but also two oxygen atoms that every living thing needs to survive? |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 2:55:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not arguing anything- it was an honest question. If the reefs died, do we know that it was 100% due to CO2, or was it something else? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We know that there have been points in the planet’s history with much higher CO2 levels than now. Did the oceans die then? Yes. Im living on a peninsula formed from million/billion year old coral reefs. Did the "oceans" die entirely? Well, no... But a fuck ton of life did in that process and we can only speculate how life would have been had it not made those shifts. What we CAN see right now is not looking good for humans as inhabitants with the current trends in our oceans. Will nature find balance again? Probably... But what timeline does that equilibrium happen in? Will we as humans be able to adapt/evolve to the changes that are detrimental to our current path and natures timeline to correct or find its new balance point. Or will the next versions of life be digging up our teeth like I dig up Megladon teeth? Is CO2 the reason for that? Are you arguing that it didnt play its part? Or that Co2 has a net effect of zero impacts? I’m not arguing anything- it was an honest question. If the reefs died, do we know that it was 100% due to CO2, or was it something else? Then yes. Co2 changes alkalinity. VERY minor alkaline changes are absolutely devastating to reefs and corals. That is not word salad leftist "science". Its proven basic elemental chemistry. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 3:01:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: K den... put your head in the sand and ignore as you wish. Keeping a fucking aquarium has only EDUCATED me MOAR on how marine life/oceans fucking WORK and the ill effects of it NOT having what it NEEDS to LIVE, and what fucking kills it ALL. The reason for all that is that an aquarium is relatively simple, lacks scale, and only approximates the tiniest slices of what the ocean is. Again, good on you for learning how to keep a reef system though. I am a freshwater guy and am under no illusions that my little tank is anything remotely close to even a small golf course pond let alone Lake Superior and the Amazon River all in one. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 3:02:51 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Youtube has millions of reef tank videos. Please go find one where the person is "supplementing" Co2 to support the health of corals. Ill be here waiting. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 3:11:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The reason for all that is that an aquarium is relatively simple, lacks scale, and only approximates the tiniest slices of what the ocean is. Again, good on you for learning how to keep a reef system though. I am a freshwater guy and am under no illusions that my little tank is anything remotely close to even a small golf course pond let alone Lake Superior and the Amazon River all in one. Fresh water is no way to really understand the full symbiotic relationships which is why fresh water is so popular and prolific (aka.. easier). Id actually encourage you to try a salt tank and it will really make your head explode. I actually quit keeping tanks because to have a thriving tank was ridiculously expensive and time consuming just to keep it at a steady state. There was ALWAYS this one tiny variable fucking up the entire balance, requiring more work and more money. It takes what is known from the fresh like water paramaters and expands it exponentially. Now stack $10k worth of corals and fish in it and start gambling with that and current knowledge. Im not trying to be obtuse or argumentative. It truly is a whole nother level and it does provide insight into the fragile balance of the ocean as a whole. Successful reef tanks these days are electronically monitored/auto dosed for light, water quality, and the myriad of other variables to help keep them in balance. Or at least alert if its slipping ever so slightly. Its a HIGH level ongoing science experiment in the home. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 3:12:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then yes. Co2 changes alkalinity. VERY minor alkaline changes are absolutely devastating to reefs and corals. That is not word salad leftist "science". Its proven basic elemental chemistry. Basicity is the measurement of absolute pH. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 3:15:27 PM EDT
[#49]
Hotter and more CO2 means more plants and more food, and since plants adsorb CO2 self regulating to a degree.
Less CO2 means less plants and food, but since the majority of suffering and death would be in third world countries the liberals don't care. As long as there are enough child slave laborers to mine cobalt for their EV. |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 3:16:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would I do that? I never stated anything of the sort. You OK bro? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Youtube has millions of reef tank videos. Please go find one where the person is "supplementing" Co2 to support the health of corals. Ill be here waiting. Selective quote editing to make yourself look better is disingenuous.  Attached File |
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