[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Lost Girls of Panama - Kris Kremers & Lisanne Froon - What do you think happened to them? (Page 3 of 6)
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They should be able to track the gps of the phone to determine its locations when they left, where it was found and everything in between no? |
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If you see how far apart the girls clothes/shoes/bag are found from their bodies, its obvious foul play was involved. https://i.4pcdn.org/x/1498824462303.jpg We are expected to believe the girls disrobed and removed their shoes and hiked through the jungle. |
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Quoted: Notice how every bit of clothing and evidence found is along that river? Think a fast moving river might be able to spread evidence over a distance? Other considerations though... It'd be a bitch to search that river, much less any of the terrain up slope. Also may be worth considering. They may not have larger scavengers, but they got birds. |
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Intresting note:
Kris’ bones – but not Lisanne’s — were hyper-bleached by phosphorus, a substance missing from the local non-volcanic soil. This gave rise to the following startling statement by Sr. Calderón: “…the match could indicate the use of fertilizers or chemicals on the remains. Desperation may have led to the attacker to use such substance to ‘disappear’ the evidence.” |
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Intresting note: Kris' bones but not Lisanne's were hyper-bleached by phosphorus, a substance missing from the local non-volcanic soil. This gave rise to the following startling statement by Sr. Caldern: "the match could indicate the use of fertilizers or chemicals on the remains. Desperation may have led to the attacker to use such substance to 'disappear' the evidence." Isn't there an active volcano like 5miles away? |
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Intresting note: Kris’ bones – but not Lisanne’s — were hyper-bleached by phosphorus, a substance missing from the local non-volcanic soil. This gave rise to the following startling statement by Sr. Calderón: “…the match could indicate the use of fertilizers or chemicals on the remains. Desperation may have led to the attacker to use such substance to ‘disappear’ the evidence.” |
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Kris's jean shorts and boot were. Let's say she was drinking bad water before she died. |
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Source? Everything I've seen has shown the various bits and pieces found going downstream. The bodies themselves were never found at all. Just chunks of bone and clothing. Quoted:
Source? Everything I've seen has shown the various bits and pieces found going downstream. The bodies themselves were never found at all. Just chunks of bone and clothing. There has been some discussion regarding the ability of the Rio Culebre to drag human bodies. Lawyer Arrocha has been particularly forthright on this point. In this he is joined by local people who point out that although the Rio Culebre originates near El Pianista, in April its flow is minimal and unable to drag a body. Also, the remains of the girls were found upstream not downstream, “as would be logical if the current had dragged them.” |
| You may be right, but the jean shorts in the photos are hardly worth pulling off for a river crossing. I mean they're tiny. I'm leaning towards they'd been drinking river water and the shorts got soiled at some point during one of the nights. Friend took them down to the water and stuck a rock on them, but they got away. |
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Some food for thought at the end of the article:
BONES How is it that certain bones appear together on the banks of the river Culebre? Why so few bones and why mostly fragments? Where are the rest of them? Why is there tissue attached to Lisanne’s bones but not to Kris’? Why does the Prosecutor declare the girls died by dragging in the river when the pathologists say the bones show no sign of abrasion? Why did the Prosecutor cite wild animals as a possible secondary cause when there were no signs of animal activity on the bones or clothes? Why did Lisanne’s foot “break off” at the ankle — without trauma? How did Kris’ bones come to have high levels of phosphorus? How were they “Chemically Treated?” Why would the skeletons be completely smashed but cheap and fragile sunglasses remain undamaged? BOOTS Why was Lisanne’s foot, still in her boot, found behind a tree? Was the boot rinsed between the time it was found and the time it was laid out on plastic near the scene, thus removing a possible crystalline crust on the bottom? (In the in situ picture the boot is dry; on plastic it is wet; both photos were presumably taken on the day Prosecutor Pitti and her team arrived at Altos Los Romeros. Hat tip: websleuths.com) How can the second boot found (blue) be reconciled with the photos of Kris and Lisanne, who are shown wearing brown boots? MESSAGES Why is there not a single “help me” marker — initials scraped into a tree, arrows, an SOS sign, etc? Why are there no messages of any kind? PHONES & CAMERA Why the intervals in phone use? Why the specific pattern? Why are there no stored text messages in the phone to their parents? Why the 87 black photos? (Note: 90 pictures were taken the early morning of the 8th. The families have released two but there is a third that is believed to contain images. We do not know when or if this picture will be released.) Why didn’t they document what happened to themselves in photos — i.e. there are no pictures of their route, injuries, threatening animals, etc. after 2 p.m. What do the two nighttime pictures of stones mean, especially the red bags and sticks? CLOTHES Why did Kris take her shorts off? Why were both bras of the girls taken off and put in the backpack? Why have there been no other undergarments found? Why are Kris’ shorts neatly laid out? OTHER PERSONAL EFFECTS If the backpack had been in the water, why weren’t the contents decayed and why were they in such good condition? Was the backpack planted? Prosecutor Pitti calls such insinuations “Irresponsible” and “without foundation.” (Panama News) MISCELLANEOUS (BUT IMPORTANT) Why do the statements of all five witness contradict the photo evidence? Why was there no contact for 11 days when the girls had to have come near habitations and other people (presuming they were not abducted)? Why didn’t they turn back after they placed their 1st emergency call? Since they got into trouble so early in the trip, as evidenced by their emergency calls, how could they have fallen into a river 12 hours away? A French couple hiked the same trail the next day and were told by a guard they encountered that he had heard screams the day before. Have these people been questioned? Has the guard been? |
| The guide that sounds kind of rapey towards European woman is highly suspect IMO. Sounds like he claimed they hired him to do a hike the next day as a cover. He abducted them and did them both and cut up their remains. I find it highly suspect that this infamous guide has disappeared also. Maybe the government killed him to solve the problem or he left because the heat was just around the corner. The whole situation stinks especially combined with all the other mentions cases of dead tourists and locals. |
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Ya know, stories like this make me realize how unique a number of us are. What is only logic and simple common sense to quite a few of us is completely alien to much of the population. Too many people who can't survive bad things. Quoted:
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As someone who has been to JOTC in Panama, I can tell you it is very easy to get lost. If you have no training you're fucked... |
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This was disproven by the Bones doctor lady. She inspected the bones herself and said it was sun bleaching. She's one of the top experts on the planet on bones. Quoted:
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Intresting note: Kris' bones but not Lisanne's were hyper-bleached by phosphorus, a substance missing from the local non-volcanic soil. This gave rise to the following startling statement by Sr. Caldern: "the match could indicate the use of fertilizers or chemicals on the remains. Desperation may have led to the attacker to use such substance to 'disappear' the evidence." You guys really need to read parts 4 through 8. They were written a year after 1 through 3. |
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It could have been all of it. Conned to go to the far side of the divide. Used, abandoned or escaped. Lost, accident. Murder. I have been to Panama (Canal Zone) Nice restaurants have a guard with a shotgun near the door. There are nasty poisonous snakes and lots of shit that will harm you included two legged. I walked a foot beat in officers’ housing area off post in a “rich” neighborhood. Off my post I heard gun shots on occasion. Other than reporting it in to forward to the PNP I didn’t worry about it. Not much respect for life there. Throw in drug running up there. I would not be at all surprised that they were murdered. The back pack showing up in a non drowned state was dropped off by a murderer or possibly a person that found it and decided their trail gift was no gift at all when the searches intensified. Poor people don’t give up cash though. If it was Panamanian dollars it would have been gone. Dutch money was not probably worth the attention it might draw in exchanging. |
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So I read the Daily Beast articles. Interesting. Assuming they are of good repute, it sounds like the got lost, had accidents, etc. until near the end when a person (or more than one) may have done something to them. Supposedly they acquired all of the camera photos. Did they ever publish them? |
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Everyone thinks they don't need no man until it's time to do don't need no man things. If they would have gone to Spain to study Spanish they'd probably still be alive. Some mistakes you only get to make once, so don't make them. This was one of those. |
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While other possibilities exist, the simplest explanation is the most likely. They decided to go down the un-maintained portion of the trail and got lost and/or injured. The totality of the evidence points most firmly to a failed self rescue which quite unfortunately coincided with the first big storm of the rainy season. Both girls were probably injured in a fall or multiple falls and one or both staggered around for days until they finally dehydrated/drowned/got eaten or otherwise succumbed. But of course I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that my conclusions don’t take Arfcom’s razor into account: All things being equal the most likely conclusion is government conspiracy. |
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What are the "new remains" mentioned on the map? Did they determine how many individuals the "30 fingerprints" came from? Quoted:
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If you see how far apart the girls clothes/shoes/bag are found from their bodies, its obvious foul play was involved. https://i.4pcdn.org/x/1498824462303.jpg We are expected to believe the girls disrobed and removed their shoes and hiked through the jungle. |
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I've been reading about this case on and off for the past couple days since this thread was created. I lean 90% toward ignorance induced death at the hands of an unforgiving jungle. The guide sounds like a bit of a creeper, but none of the circumstances point to foul play. So what, he abducted them but allowed them to use their phones periodically for several consecutive days? He let them use their camera freely? I don't buy that he "caught up with them" way down the trail either. The trail was so intense that even the natives didn't use it this time of year. Highly doubt the guide would brave the elements only to CHANCE finding them in the rainforest, just for a shot at some Van der Poon. If anything, I have to question their judgment by trekking into the unmarked trails to begin with, but I have to admire their ability to travel MILES into one of the harshest jungles in the world, and survive for a week or more without any resources whatsoever. Count me as a solid vote in the "died of natural/jungle causes" category |
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Quoted: Notice how every bit of clothing and evidence found is along that river? Think a fast moving river might be able to spread evidence over a distance? Quoted: Notice how every bit of clothing and evidence found is along that river? Think a fast moving river might be able to spread evidence over a distance? 
After April 6, multiple attempts of a false PIN code were entered into the iPhone; it never received the correct code again. 
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I have never been to Panama but I have trekked some of the "off-limits to Tourists" places in south Asia. Most Americans (yes, I know these ladies were Dutch) really have no concept of how "lost" you can really get and how quickly you can get in that sort of situation. Combine that with the challenges and dangers of that kind of environment along with inept and corrupt government "officials" (more the former than the latter I suspect in this case) and locals who will fear being blamed regardless of any involvement or not and you end up with a mystery with lots of unanswered questions sprinkled with a lot of questionable "facts". If you watch a few episodes of Naked & Afraid you get an idea of how quickly you can lose things like cognitive function (decision making) and fine motor skills. However, the one thing those contestants have that these two woman (and other people like them) did not have is that in the back of their mind they KNOW somebody will rescue them if worse becomes worst. THAT makes a BIG difference in the survivor mindset. I do know that there are probably 10,000 explainable ways they could have died to be explored before you have to look to the Supernatural. |
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Jaguar. Quoted:
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Maybe somethng was following them and then killed them, do they have big cats in Panama. Theres spectacled bears in panama too.....extremely aggressive in certain situations Peccaries/javelina have been known to eat human remains and kill people who they find sleeping on the forest floor.....and they travel in herds of hundreds or more down there.... |
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Quoted: And puma (cougars.....which one would find more abundant in higher elevation cloud forest than the tropical lowlands) Theres spectacled bears in panama too.....extremely aggressive in certain situations Peccaries/javelina have been known to eat human remains and kill people who they find sleeping on the forest floor.....and they trvel in herds of hundreds or more down there.... |
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Didn't know cougars ranged that far south. Interesting. Quoted:
Quoted: And puma (cougars.....which one would find more abundant in higher elevation cloud forest than the tropical lowlands) Theres spectacled bears in panama too.....extremely aggressive in certain situations Peccaries/javelina have been known to eat human remains and kill people who they find sleeping on the forest floor.....and they trvel in herds of hundreds or more down there.... |
The local 'indians' found everything and turned it over to police. We have no idea where anything really was found as there is no traditional crime scene investigation.
Telephone game with location of human remains. 
Then there is the case of phosphorus which does not exist in the soil there. 
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Family of girls hiked to where the girls shorts were found. Girls were found upstream not downstream.
To this, lawyer Arrocha has an answer. He hiked the trail himself and went all the way to where the bones were found. Unlike some others, he doesn’t believe the trail is poorly marked or that the girls got lost. Nor do Kris’ parents, who hiked up to what is being called the “paddock area.” It would have been “impossible” for the girls to have gotten lost, they say. They believe, firmly, that a “third party” is involved and are joined by criminalist Steffens in this belief. Others say the trail is not well marked, especially in rainy season, and it’s easy to lose one’s way. But rainy season had just begun and April 1st was a beautiful, sunny day. The quebradas were dry, the initial hike to the top easy for two athletic girls. Lawyer Arrocha has been particularly forthright on this point. In this he is joined by local people who point out that although the Rio Culebre originates near El Pianista, in April its flow is minimal and unable to drag a body. Also, the remains of the girls were found upstream not downstream, “as would be logical if the current had dragged them.” |