[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Lost Girls of Panama - Kris Kremers & Lisanne Froon - What do you think happened to them? (Page 2 of 6)
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Having lived in Panama briefly my guess is simple. They were raped and murdered. |
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I would agree that this is likely. They were left dead in place and animals mauled and consumed their remains. Forensic pathology should be able to confirm animal consumption and/or the use of weapons to kill/dismember them. Quoted:
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Having lived in Panama briefly my guess is simple. They were raped and murdered. |
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I no nothing about this case but random night time photos of the jungle might indicate they were trying to use the flash to help them see at night Rapists would not have allowed them to try to make 911 calls. |
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I would agree that this is likely. They were left dead in place and animals mauled and consumed their remains. Forensic pathology should be able to confirm animal consumption and/or the use of weapons to kill/dismember them. A. There aren't that many carnivore scavenging animals in that part of the forest/elevations ( from what I've read ). B. What little bones were found, showed NO signs of bit marks. I'm amazed at the conclusion that some get to that after only 2 weeks in the humid jungle, their bodies were reduced to literally less than 10 bones. People have disappeared out west here and after months or years, there is more remaining. WHERE ARE THE SKULLS?!? I mean, we have all types of bears, every type of cat, coyotes , etc and I've never seen a corpse that scavenged. |
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I think the problem with that theory is: A. There aren't that many carnivore scavenging animals in that part of the forest/elevations ( from what I've read ). B. What little bones were found, showed NO signs of bit marks. I'm amazed at the conclusion that some get to that after only 2 weeks in the humid jungle, their bodies were reduced to literally less than 10 bones. People have disappeared out west here and after months or years, there is more remaining. WHERE ARE THE SKULLS?!? I mean, we have all types of bears, every type of cat, coyotes , etc and I've never seen a corpse that scavenged. Quoted:
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I would agree that this is likely. They were left dead in place and animals mauled and consumed their remains. Forensic pathology should be able to confirm animal consumption and/or the use of weapons to kill/dismember them. A. There aren't that many carnivore scavenging animals in that part of the forest/elevations ( from what I've read ). B. What little bones were found, showed NO signs of bit marks. I'm amazed at the conclusion that some get to that after only 2 weeks in the humid jungle, their bodies were reduced to literally less than 10 bones. People have disappeared out west here and after months or years, there is more remaining. WHERE ARE THE SKULLS?!? I mean, we have all types of bears, every type of cat, coyotes , etc and I've never seen a corpse that scavenged. |
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Here are links to the entirety of the story for those interested. It will take a while to read all of them.
Parts 1 to 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 This should be all of the articles. The Daily Beasts' website is terrible and they did a poor job linking all of these articles. Apparently I even missed reading two of these myself. |
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Random thoughts and observations:
1. Lisanne, the dark haired one w/ the backpack was 6' tall. She would have drawn a lot of attention in that neck of the woods. 2. The deleted photo. The last remaining daylight photo 0508 is stamped at 1:54pm and the first 911 attempt happened at 4:29pm that same day. The next photo is 0510 and is the first of 90'ish taken in the dark. 0509 was deleted and unrecoverable. I doubt it was erased by a computer as is speculated. Who the heck would go through that sort of trouble? You'd have to first have the knowledge that the image could potentially be recovered. And "right click-delete" isn't going to do anything else that the delete button the camera does. You'd have to overwrite it--privacy software can do that. Then put the camera in it's case, and the case in the backpack, and then schlep the backpack out into the field (because who heads out on a casual rape trek packing a laptop)? The girls deleted the image on the camera and the data got overwritten on the 8th when Lisanne took 90 photos in the dark. 0509 may likely have been the first of the night-time shots that got inspected, and deleted before she just said "fuck it, I'm going to take a bunch anyhow to try to document this spot." 3. Lisanne's foot was badly broken in the boot. Most likely happened when she was still alive. She took a fall. Kris's head was beat up in the photo of the 8th. She also took a fall. 4. Why weren't the bodies intact? Beats me. Doesn't make sense. If Lisanne's foot had been cut away from the leg, you'd think the medical exam would have seen that. So it was probably attached to the leg, and the fact that it came free would indicate the strong possibility that the body came apart from natural processes. 5. Phone records show that they were diligent in checking for cell phone signals twice a day at 10:30 and 1:30 through the 6th. Kris apparently stopped functioning between the 5th and 6th given the bad pin attempts on the phone (but that doesn't necessarily mean that Lisanne was using the phone). If they were victimized, when would that have occurred? The afternoon of the 1st is the only date that potentially makes sense to me. The regular nature of the cell phone checks makes me disbelieve that they were held prisoner. There probably wasn't much left to victimize after the 11th when the electronics activity ended. |
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I have a hard time believing they were on the same trail system in that short of a distance and no locals discovered them over that period of time. Also the one girls shorts were found neatly folded on a rock. |
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Quoted: I think the problem with that theory is: A. There aren't that many carnivore scavenging animals in that part of the forest/elevations ( from what I've read ). B. What little bones were found, showed NO signs of bit marks. I'm amazed at the conclusion that some get to that after only 2 weeks in the humid jungle, their bodies were reduced to literally less than 10 bones. People have disappeared out west here and after months or years, there is more remaining. WHERE ARE THE SKULLS?!? I mean, we have all types of bears, every type of cat, coyotes , etc and I've never seen a corpse that scavenged. |
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Random thoughts and observations: 1. Lisanne, the dark haired one w/ the backpack was 6' tall. She would have drawn a lot of attention in that neck of the woods. 2. The deleted photo. The last remaining daylight photo 0508 is stamped at 1:54pm and the first 911 attempt happened at 4:29pm that same day. The next photo is 0510 and is the first of 90'ish taken in the dark. 0509 was deleted and unrecoverable. I doubt it was erased by a computer as is speculated. Who the heck would go through that sort of trouble? You'd have to first have the knowledge that the image could potentially be recovered. And "right click-delete" isn't going to do anything else that the delete button the camera does. You'd have to overwrite it--privacy software can do that. Then put the camera in it's case, and the case in the backpack, and then schlep the backpack out into the field (because who heads out on a casual rape trek packing a laptop)? The girls deleted the image on the camera and the data got overwritten on the 8th when Lisanne took 90 photos in the dark. 0509 may likely have been the first of the night-time shots that got inspected, and deleted before she just said "fuck it, I'm going to take a bunch anyhow to try to document this spot." 3. Lisanne's foot was badly broken in the boot. Most likely happened when she was still alive. She took a fall. 4. Why weren't the bodies intact? Beats me. Doesn't make sense. If Lisanne's foot had been cut away from the leg, you'd think the medical exam would have seen that. So it was probably attached to the leg, and the fact that it came free would indicate the strong possibility that the body came apart from natural processes. 5. Phone records show that they were diligent in checking for cell phone signals twice a day at 10:30 and 1:30 through the 6th. Kris apparently stopped functioning between the 5th and 6th given the bad pin attempts on the phone (but that doesn't necessarily mean that Lisanne was using the phone). If they were victimized, when would that have occurred? The afternoon of the 1st is the only date that potentially makes sense to me. The regular nature of the cell phone checks makes me disbelieve that they were held prisoner. There probably wasn't much left to victimize after the 11th when the electronics activity ended. 1. Why were all their remains and belongings located so far from each other? Also, the backpack. Why was it found so long after - perfectly dry and in exceptional condition? 2. How did they survive for so long without any fresh water? No means to filter river water. They would've surely gotten dysentery from drinking river water, no? 3. Why the LONG stretch of no photos? Almost a week? I agree that getting lost and succumbing is a very plausible and real scenario, but there are a lot of unanswered questions. |
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The Panamanian jungle is unforgiving. Climb up a hill, fall down the other side. Repeat. We lost one of our party to an electric caterpillar, and had another chased by a Fer De Lance. We were also harassed by a group of monkeys after a soldier threw a rock at them. They followed and bombarded us with sticks, stones, and feces. |
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Random thoughts and observations: 1. Lisanne, the dark haired one w/ the backpack was 6' tall. She would have drawn a lot of attention in that neck of the woods. 2. The deleted photo. The last remaining daylight photo 0508 is stamped at 1:54pm and the first 911 attempt happened at 4:29pm that same day. The next photo is 0510 and is the first of 90'ish taken in the dark. 0509 was deleted and unrecoverable. I doubt it was erased by a computer as is speculated. Who the heck would go through that sort of trouble? You'd have to first have the knowledge that the image could potentially be recovered. And "right click-delete" isn't going to do anything else that the delete button the camera does. You'd have to overwrite it--privacy software can do that. Then put the camera in it's case, and the case in the backpack, and then schlep the backpack out into the field (because who heads out on a casual rape trek packing a laptop)? The girls deleted the image on the camera and the data got overwritten on the 8th when Lisanne took 90 photos in the dark. 0509 may likely have been the first of the night-time shots that got inspected, and deleted before she just said "fuck it, I'm going to take a bunch anyhow to try to document this spot." 3. Lisanne's foot was badly broken in the boot. Most likely happened when she was still alive. She took a fall. Kris's head was beat up in the photo of the 8th. She also took a fall. 4. Why weren't the bodies intact? Beats me. Doesn't make sense. If Lisanne's foot had been cut away from the leg, you'd think the medical exam would have seen that. So it was probably attached to the leg, and the fact that it came free would indicate the strong possibility that the body came apart from natural processes. 5. Phone records show that they were diligent in checking for cell phone signals twice a day at 10:30 and 1:30 through the 6th. Kris apparently stopped functioning between the 5th and 6th given the bad pin attempts on the phone (but that doesn't necessarily mean that Lisanne was using the phone). If they were victimized, when would that have occurred? The afternoon of the 1st is the only date that potentially makes sense to me. The regular nature of the cell phone checks makes me disbelieve that they were held prisoner. There probably wasn't much left to victimize after the 11th when the electronics activity ended. 2. The deleted photo could be a red herring. That said, it's also possible that it was a smoking gun and that it was deleted by Panamanian officials looking to prevent negative press from impacting their tourism industry. 3. Could have. Without the rest of the remains I don't think anyone can be certain how they died. 4. The medical examiners don't think natural processes broke up the bodies. 5. If they were prisoners of the guide's he could have let them keep the phones since he would know they wouldn't work (the guide had a cell phone the daily beast author contacted him on). If you look at the google earth images of this area the entirety of what was on the other side of the ridge from the trail they came in on is total wilderness with no discernible roads. All of that said, you do raise good questions here and the phone calls are the biggest kink in the prisoner theory. |
super natural monster got them. the natives know about it and tried to warn them but they laughed at their simple back woods jungle ways and superstitions. bad juju all around  ultimately their own overconfidence in their own abilities and ignorance is what killed them. |
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I'll offer you these questions: 1. Why were all their remains and belongings located so far from each other? Also, the backpack. Why was it found so long after - perfectly dry and in exceptional condition? 2. How did they survive for so long without any fresh water? No means to filter river water. They would've surely gotten dysentery from drinking river water, no? 3. Why the LONG stretch of no photos? Almost a week? I agree that getting lost and succumbing is a very plausible and real scenario, but there are a lot of unanswered questions. Quoted:
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Random thoughts and observations: 1. Lisanne, the dark haired one w/ the backpack was 6' tall. She would have drawn a lot of attention in that neck of the woods. 2. The deleted photo. The last remaining daylight photo 0508 is stamped at 1:54pm and the first 911 attempt happened at 4:29pm that same day. The next photo is 0510 and is the first of 90'ish taken in the dark. 0509 was deleted and unrecoverable. I doubt it was erased by a computer as is speculated. Who the heck would go through that sort of trouble? You'd have to first have the knowledge that the image could potentially be recovered. And "right click-delete" isn't going to do anything else that the delete button the camera does. You'd have to overwrite it--privacy software can do that. Then put the camera in it's case, and the case in the backpack, and then schlep the backpack out into the field (because who heads out on a casual rape trek packing a laptop)? The girls deleted the image on the camera and the data got overwritten on the 8th when Lisanne took 90 photos in the dark. 0509 may likely have been the first of the night-time shots that got inspected, and deleted before she just said "fuck it, I'm going to take a bunch anyhow to try to document this spot." 3. Lisanne's foot was badly broken in the boot. Most likely happened when she was still alive. She took a fall. 4. Why weren't the bodies intact? Beats me. Doesn't make sense. If Lisanne's foot had been cut away from the leg, you'd think the medical exam would have seen that. So it was probably attached to the leg, and the fact that it came free would indicate the strong possibility that the body came apart from natural processes. 5. Phone records show that they were diligent in checking for cell phone signals twice a day at 10:30 and 1:30 through the 6th. Kris apparently stopped functioning between the 5th and 6th given the bad pin attempts on the phone (but that doesn't necessarily mean that Lisanne was using the phone). If they were victimized, when would that have occurred? The afternoon of the 1st is the only date that potentially makes sense to me. The regular nature of the cell phone checks makes me disbelieve that they were held prisoner. There probably wasn't much left to victimize after the 11th when the electronics activity ended. 1. Why were all their remains and belongings located so far from each other? Also, the backpack. Why was it found so long after - perfectly dry and in exceptional condition? 2. How did they survive for so long without any fresh water? No means to filter river water. They would've surely gotten dysentery from drinking river water, no? 3. Why the LONG stretch of no photos? Almost a week? I agree that getting lost and succumbing is a very plausible and real scenario, but there are a lot of unanswered questions. Also, I think if I were in that situation I would have ditched unnecessary weight like the camera if I was in a weakened state from dehydration/starvation. People do do strange things when they are dying though, see death valley germans. |
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I listened to the first three articles.
They went over the summit to the remote side and got lost. There was no sign at the time they got lost indicating the end of the maintained trail. They tried getting a signal regularly for days. The foot had breaks in it indicating there was damage similar to a fall. The girls were tough as hell and lasted a week or more. The terrain sounds horrid. They may have fallen some. One or both were injured, possibly from falling off the monkey bridges. The wet season rains that start in early to mid April would sweep their remains and possessions down the valleys into the larger river where they were found. The water and rock would crush up the bodies. The camera is a tough point and shoot in a soft case placed in the backpack. It did have some water damage from what the article said. Sad situation all around. |
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After investigating the area where the backpack had been found, police uncovered Kremers’ clothing, neatly folded along the edge of the river. Two months later, in the same area, a pelvic bone and a foot, still inside a boot, were found. They got lost for a few days, turn phone on/off trying to save battery to make 911 call, then ran into someone who killed them, the killer did not know the PIN number of the phone. 6 April 10:26 AM: the phone lights up the PIN is entered 10:27 AM: Turned off again. 1:37 PM: Phone is switched on but no calls made. (error?) 1:38 PM: Turned off again. 11 April 10:51 AM: the phone lights up but the PIN is not entered 11:56 AM: turns off the phone without calls |
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I am going with murder. Who the hell takes off all their clothes and folds them in the jungle. Quoted:
After investigating the area where the backpack had been found, police uncovered Kremers’ clothing, neatly folded along the edge of the river. Two months later, in the same area, a pelvic bone and a foot, still inside a boot, were found. People who bathe nude Don’t think rapists fold clothes neatly Not saying that there was no foul play but from what my dad told me the Panamanian jungle can kill you all by itself |
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Quoted: People who sleep nude People who bathe nude Don’t think rapists fold clothes neatly Not saying that there was no foul play but from what my dad told me the Panamanian jungle can kill you all by itself Quoted: People who sleep nude People who bathe nude Don’t think rapists fold clothes neatly Not saying that there was no foul play but from what my dad told me the Panamanian jungle can kill you all by itself Other murders in the area. In 2009 a British man named Alex Humphrey never returned from a short hike in the area. His body was never found, but the charred and buried body of someone never identified was. That charred body was too short to be the missing man. |
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LOL. They are lost in the jungle and they are just going to completely disrobe to bathe or sleep? Have you ever been a tropical jungle? Quoted:
Quoted: People who sleep nude People who bathe nude Don’t think rapists fold clothes neatly Not saying that there was no foul play but from what my dad told me the Panamanian jungle can kill you all by itself Far better than shorts and t shirt for bug bite prevention |
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I think it would be an error to simply assume that the water was bad. They were on a mountain, upstream of any human activity. Very possible that the water was safe to drink. That said, I think a theory that they were given water is a safer bet than that they were drinking creek water. It also explains the photo gap. Also, I think if I were in that situation I would have ditched unnecessary weight like the camera if I was in a weakened state from dehydration/starvation. People do do strange things when they are dying though, see death valley germans. On the subject of water... Suppose they are drinking creek water, and they are hit with the bug. The jean shorts may have been a casualty of that, and that's why they ended up in the water. Maybe tucked under a rock to rinse them out well, but they broke loose before one of the girls could retrieve them. Although it's widely reported that the shorts were found folded, well above the highwater mark, one of the later articles says the guide denies that and points out the spot in the water where they were found. |
If you see how far apart the girls clothes/shoes/bag are found from their bodies, its obvious foul play was involved.
We are expected to believe the girls disrobed and removed their shoes and hiked through the jungle. For example, examiners from the Dutch Forensic Institute discovered more than 30 unidentified fingerprints on the contents of Lisanne’s backpack. |
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My father was a grunt in Panama in the late 50s. He said that it was easy to lose people to river crossings, falls, snake bite, mud slides etc. He said the terrain was incredibly difficult Quoted:
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The Panamanian jungle is unforgiving. Climb up a hill, fall down the other side. Repeat. We lost one of our party to an electric caterpillar, and had another chased by a Fer De Lance. We were also harassed by a group of monkeys after a soldier threw a rock at them. They followed and bombarded us with sticks, stones, and feces. Interaction with wildlife wasn't terribly common. Even in really remote locations. The terrain, weather, and lack of land navigation skills will get you killed. Quickly. Mountainous triple canopy jungle, or salt water swamp is no place for the inexperienced. It wasn't uncommon for patrols from CONUS units to get lost at JOTC. Here in the US, day hikers get lost and killed all the time. Simply wandering off the trail. I think this is probably what happened. |
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The recovered iPhone’s final powering event comes on April 11—three days after the photos were made and five days after the search began. Dr. Van de Goot’s team of examiners declared they couldn’t be certain a “third party” didn’t activate the phone on that day. At some later point, the same guide who first invited the women up to the Divide became involved in the search for the girls. “He’s the last guy to see them alive—and then he’s the one who finds their bones,” says fellow guide Tornblom. “Something about that just feels wrong to me.” |
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There is also the deleted photo. Someone connected the camera to a PC and deleted a single photo from the memory card. Quoted:
Quoted: Logical and likely right - but what about the weird photos and the 911 calls? Rapists are not known for allowing phone calls or taking weird photos. |
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Yeah, I think shortly before the first 911 call on the 1st, they realized that tourist time was over. They focused 110% on trying to figure out a way to get out alive, and the camera offers no obvious solutions to that problem. On the subject of water... Suppose they are drinking creek water, and they are hit with the bug. The jean shorts may have been a casualty of that, and that's why they ended up in the water. Maybe tucked under a rock to rinse them out well, but they broke loose before one of the girls could retrieve them. Although it's widely reported that the shorts were found folded, well above the highwater mark, one of the later articles says the guide denies that and points out the spot in the water where they were found. Quoted:
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I think it would be an error to simply assume that the water was bad. They were on a mountain, upstream of any human activity. Very possible that the water was safe to drink. That said, I think a theory that they were given water is a safer bet than that they were drinking creek water. It also explains the photo gap. Also, I think if I were in that situation I would have ditched unnecessary weight like the camera if I was in a weakened state from dehydration/starvation. People do do strange things when they are dying though, see death valley germans. On the subject of water... Suppose they are drinking creek water, and they are hit with the bug. The jean shorts may have been a casualty of that, and that's why they ended up in the water. Maybe tucked under a rock to rinse them out well, but they broke loose before one of the girls could retrieve them. Although it's widely reported that the shorts were found folded, well above the highwater mark, one of the later articles says the guide denies that and points out the spot in the water where they were found. |
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If you see how far apart the girls clothes/shoes/bag are found from their bodies, its obvious foul play was involved. https://i.4pcdn.org/x/1498824462303.jpg We are expected to believe the girls disrobed and removed their shoes and hiked through the jungle. Quoted:
If you see how far apart the girls clothes/shoes/bag are found from their bodies, its obvious foul play was involved. https://i.4pcdn.org/x/1498824462303.jpg We are expected to believe the girls disrobed and removed their shoes and hiked through the jungle. For example, examiners from the Dutch Forensic Institute discovered more than 30 unidentified fingerprints on the contents of Lisanne's backpack. |
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As someone who has been to JOTC in Panama, I can tell you it is very easy to get lost. If you have no training you're fucked... |
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Quoted: I kinda call bullshit on the "deleted photo". I recover those routinely. |
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While other possibilities exist, the simplest explanation is the most likely. They decided to go down the un-maintained portion of the trail and got lost and/or injured. The totality of the evidence points most firmly to a failed self rescue which quite unfortunately coincided with the first big storm of the rainy season. Both girls were probably injured in a fall or multiple falls and one or both staggered around for days until they finally dehydrated/drowned/got eaten or otherwise succumbed. But of course I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that my conclusions don’t take Arfcom’s razor into account: All things being equal the most likely conclusion is government conspiracy. |
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If you see how far apart the girls clothes/shoes/bag are found from their bodies, its obvious foul play was involved. https://i.4pcdn.org/x/1498824462303.jpg We are expected to believe the girls disrobed and removed their shoes and hiked through the jungle. It's not unreasonable that the wildlife took some of their shit & moved it around. We were told we had to dummy cord everything we had so the monkeys couldn't snatch it & run off... |
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Quoted: Not Panama but I’ve camped in Everglades, I know that the insects are incredible but if they were gone for days they damn sure took their clothes off and tried to bathe if they found river or creek water. Assuming they didn’t carry netting, covering your skin in mud is Far better than shorts and t shirt for bug bite prevention I've never been in a " forest " like that, but I would imagine they were getting EATEN ALIVE from mosquitos. Plus eating. Unless you were smart and researched that beforehand, There probably isn't much that ISN'T poisonous in there. I'd be afraid to eat anything. |
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If you see how far apart the girls clothes/shoes/bag are found from their bodies, its obvious foul play was involved. https://i.4pcdn.org/x/1498824462303.jpg We are expected to believe the girls disrobed and removed their shoes and hiked through the jungle. |
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Quoted: What are the "new remains" mentioned on the map? Did they determine how many individuals the "30 fingerprints" came from? Fingerprints no. Various people handled the backpack between when it was found and fingerprinted and no reference study was conducted. |
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