[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Myth: .357 is useless in snubbies, low velocities, blah blah. Update with carbine data in OP (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/3/2010 2:27:53 PM EDT
|
Since I've seen it posted a bunch of times that .357 ammo is worthless in snubbies because there is only a "100-200 fps" difference in velocity, and I wanted to go test some handloads anyway, I packed up a 4" M28 and my 2.25" SP101 along with some ammo and my chronograph. It's about 40 degrees outside and there is a light rain, so I didn't bother with a bunch of pics. The mag ammo I carry is Remington 125 grain SJHP, not really anything special. Five rounds were fired through each gun to get an average velocity.
Range: 
Rem 125 grain SJHP magnums, same as what's on the left in this pic(the new boxes) Product code R357M1: 
I didn't get a pic of the handloads, but this is the same bullet in a magnum case. All I'm going to say on this load is Elmer Keith, 358429 bullet, and 38/44 High Velocity. 
And then a cheezy .38 special load I had laying around, some Monarch 158 grain JSP. Actually the only fresh box of factory .38 ammo I have. 
Before I go any further, I want to say that no, I didn't test any of the latest .38 +p ammo. I don't have any because I don't carry it, and it's too expensive for me(right now anyway) to just buy a box to blast it over a chrono. I have looked at the numbers claimed by the various manufacturers of .38 +P in the same weight range as my mag loads though. Federal lists the 129 grain hydrashock at 950 fps, barrel length isn't specified. I'm going to guess that they used a 4" vented barrel, but I don't know for sure. 950 fps sounds pretty optimistic for a 2" barrel though. Remington lists the 125 grain GSHP at 975 fps from a 4" barrel. Speer lists the 135 grain GDSB load at 860 fps from a 2" vented barrel. Winchester lists the 125 grain silvertip at 945 fps from a vented 4" barrel. Also listed is a 130 grain load under the "Elite" line at 904 fps, no barrel length or type specified. The majors mfgs are covered by the above. So without further interruption... Monarch––Note: These numbers are correct and the guns were shot back to back. This ammo is inconsistent crap. M28 = 636 fps Extreme spread of 116 fps. 
SP101 = 731 fps Extreme spread of 83 fps. 38/44 High Velocity load(this bullet, from my mold, weighs 176 grains lubed and sized) M28 = 1172 fps SP101 = 1103 fps Rem 125 grain SJHP Mag load(which is rated at 1450 from a vented 4" by remington) M28 = 1358 fps SP101 = 1298 fps Your mileage will obviously vary. If anyone has some real world chrono data on the +P .38 loads, I'd really like to see it. Even if the Speer GDSB load manages to actually make 860 from a real gun, that's still over a 400 fps difference from a mag load in another real gun. Shooting stuff in the cold and rain isn't fun. 
So, back out to the range we go with the wife's little carbine. She picked it out AND paid for it.  That simmons 4X is the first scope I ever bought, I've had it for somewhere over 15 years.
Better view of the carbine 
Now for data: Rem R357M1 = 2141 fps average 
Federal 357B(note: looks like this load is C357B now)= 2071 fps average Winchester Q4204 = 1760 fps average Remington R38S10 = 1290 fps average Remington R38S12 = 1189 fps average Handload 16.5 grains Lil' Gun, CCI 550, home cast 358429 bullet @ 176 grains = 1904 fps average getting close to 30-30 territory 
Now for how some of these ran through the 4" M28-2 Federal 357B = 1205 fps average Winchester Q4204 = 1171 fps average Remington R38S10 = 908 fps average Remington R28S12 = 897 fps average And I did manage to get the two 38 +P loads and the winchester mag load through the SP101 before I ran out of daylight. Rem R38S10 = 847 fps average Rem R38S12 = 839 fps average Win Q4204 = 1151 fps average Something I want to mention is the fricking HUGE fireball from the winchester 110 grain load when shot in the handguns. It was extremely bright even well before the sun started setting. I don't just mean at the muzzle either....it was like it enveloped the gun + my hands. Might be fun for impressing people, but this load would absolutely suck ass in the dark. It was sort of unsettling to me and I've shot a few thousand rounds through wheelguns...... I also had one pierced primer with this load in the M28-2. And so ya'll can have a laugh: 
It still works though. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a carbine to shoot and test with the same loads? My wife has one of the discontinued Marlin 1894 CP(16.25" ported ) carbines in .357.I'm very interested in the difference. I had a 1894 once, and my 4 in revolver would not shoot through a fence post, but the carbine would punch a hole clean through it. |
|
Quoted:
Off to the reloading forum to see what I won! This isn't that load. I'll drag some brass out tonight and trim it down for the Ruger though... Spent most of last night prepping the brass for the 38/44 loads...after finding the only 50 pieces I knew was 1x fired. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a carbine to shoot and test with the same loads? My wife has one of the discontinued Marlin 1894 CP(16.25" ported ) carbines in .357.I'm very interested in the difference. I had a 1894 once, and my 4 in revolver would not shoot through a fence post, but the carbine would punch a hole clean through it. Which load do you want me to run through it? I *think* the 358429 bullet may have too much nose length to feed in mag cases, but the 38/44 load should be fine. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a carbine to shoot and test with the same loads? My wife has one of the discontinued Marlin 1894 CP(16.25" ported ) carbines in .357.I'm very interested in the difference. I had a 1894 once, and my 4 in revolver would not shoot through a fence post, but the carbine would punch a hole clean through it. Around 400-500 fps difference, depending on which .357 load we're talking about. Konger |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a carbine to shoot and test with the same loads? My wife has one of the discontinued Marlin 1894 CP(16.25" ported ) carbines in .357.I'm very interested in the difference. I had a 1894 once, and my 4 in revolver would not shoot through a fence post, but the carbine would punch a hole clean through it. Which load do you want me to run through it? I *think* the 358429 bullet may have too much nose length to feed in mag cases, but the 38/44 load should be fine. Use the factory 125gr Remingtons. Or any other popular commercially available load. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a carbine to shoot and test with the same loads? My wife has one of the discontinued Marlin 1894 CP(16.25" ported ) carbines in .357.I'm very interested in the difference. I had a 1894 once, and my 4 in revolver would not shoot through a fence post, but the carbine would punch a hole clean through it. Which load do you want me to run through it? I *think* the 358429 bullet may have too much nose length to feed in mag cases, but the 38/44 load should be fine. Use the factory 125gr Remingtons. Or any other popular commercially available load. If it isn't raining tomorrow and nothing comes up, I'll shoot a few of them. May try some 125 grain federals and 110 grain winchesters too. |
|
Cool write up!
Still a couple questions, though –– Velocity is all well and good, but is there an improvement in performance (penetration, expansion) between the "preferred" .38+p loads and the .357 load tested here? Assuming there is an improvement, is that performance worth the cost/weight of the gun, recoil, and blast? |
|
Quoted:
Cool write up! Still a couple questions, though –– Velocity is all well and good, but is there an improvement in performance (penetration, expansion) between the "preferred" .38+p loads and the .357 load tested here? I can't answer that at present. I wouldn't hesitate to say that the SJHP will expand, at least some, down to 1k or possibly under. At the higher velocities, it fragments somewhat like M193 from the few tests I've seen on it. Lots of advancements have been made with JHP's, since the majority used to be designed with an 800 fps floor for expansion, and I won't argue that point with anyone. I simply don't trust a JHP to expand much below that, and it appears that most loads will probably be close to that threshold at the muzzle. If I were carrying .38 loads, it would be the old "treasury load" of a 158 grain LSWCHP at +P. They're soft and they'll expand, even at the low velocity the .38 is capable of. Assuming there is an improvement, is that performance worth the cost/weight of the gun, recoil, and blast?
That's going to be up to the end user. Knowing the mag load will work versus wondering about the +P .38 is more than worth it to me. |
|
Good data. I looked through my notes, and I have one load that I shot in both my Ruger Security Six and Taurus 605 snubbie:
125gr JHP with 17 GR H4227, 1.579 loa Ruger averaged 1393 FPS with a spread of 76 FPS Taurus averaged 1203 with a spread of 59 FPS Yeah, real worthless. Anyone who thinks that is more then welcome to stand there and let me shoot them with it
|
|
Good data. I wrote an email to every shelf ammo manufacturer a couple years ago when a related thread popped up. I asked for data on 38+P vs 357 mag ammo fired from a 2'' or shorter barrel revolver. Less then half bothered to respond, and those that did only told me 4'' barrels was the industry standard for testing and they refused to provide any data for the snubbie crowd. I thought that was a mistake because of the large number of people that carry snubbies. I selected Speer's 38 +P load they market specifically toward 2'' and shorter barrel revolvers because they were the ONLY company that published this data. You have me second guessing my decision again.
|
|
Quoted:
If anyone has some real world chrono data on the +P .38 loads, I'd really like to see it. Even if the Speer GDSB load manages to actually make 860 from a real gun, that's still over a 400 fps difference from a mag load in another real gun. If it warms up at all here over the weekend (yeah, like that will happen) I will take out my chrono and some GDSB +P (which is my carry load for my BUG, a 442). For me, though, .38+P is the limit on reasonable recoil out of a lightweight pocket gun. I can't imagine trying to get off a cylinder of full-power .357 loads from one of those Scandium-framed J's in a relatively short timespan (with acceptable accuracy). ETA - Hey, shooting stuff in the cold and rain is still fun.
I just need to remember to bring subsonic .22LR next time... apparently, Federal bulk pack is probably around 1100 FPS out my Buckmark... never bothered to actually chrono it before. 
|
|
Quoted:
Good data. I wrote an email to every shelf ammo manufacturer a couple years ago when a related thread popped up. I asked for data on 38+P vs 357 mag ammo fired from a 2'' or shorter barrel revolver. Less then half bothered to respond, and those that did only told me 4'' barrels was the industry standard for testing and they refused to provide any data for the snubbie crowd. I thought that was a mistake because of the large number of people that carry snubbies. I selected Speer's 38 +P load they market specifically toward 2'' and shorter barrel revolvers because they were the ONLY company that published this data. You have me second guessing my decision again. 4" is the industry standard and most .38 or .357 loads are going to be engineered for that length. I recovered one of the Monarch JSP .38 bullets today and other than the rifling marks you couldn't tell it had been fired. I wish I knew which gun it was fired from, but sadly both the ruger and S&W use five groove rifling. I *think* Federal used to offer a "chief's special" load, but it may have been a different mfg...at any rate it was discontinued a long time ago. Shoot the stuff over a chrono and find out what it actually delivers from your gun. Shoot some of it into some form of test medium and see what happens. I don't know of any other way to decide on new stuff. The loads I've chosen for carry have been proven to work way more often than not..and therein lies the problem with new stuff, you just don't know until it has been used a lot and the data is compiled. For all I know, the new stuff works better than what I've decided on. I just don't want to be the guy who finds out that the latest and greatest really doesn't work as well as it should.
|
|
Quoted:
Cool info, machinist. The people who claim 357 is worthless in snubs are just being pussies. "Owwww! Shooting 357's in a snubbie hurts my hands!" "Owwwww! It's toooo loud!" Recoil isn't a problem, but the blast gives me pause. I'm curious how much more noise a 2 inch barrel makes over a 6 (what I have). |
Cold? I don't even see any snow, I was out on Monday ,while it was snowing|
Quoted:
Quoted:
If anyone has some real world chrono data on the +P .38 loads, I'd really like to see it. Even if the Speer GDSB load manages to actually make 860 from a real gun, that's still over a 400 fps difference from a mag load in another real gun. If it warms up at all here over the weekend (yeah, like that will happen) I will take out my chrono and some GDSB +P (which is my carry load for my BUG, a 442). For me, though, .38+P is the limit on reasonable recoil out of a lightweight pocket gun. I can't imagine trying to get off a cylinder of full-power .357 loads from one of those Scandium-framed J's in a relatively short timespan (with acceptable accuracy). ETA - Hey, shooting stuff in the cold and rain is still fun.
I just need to remember to bring subsonic .22LR next time... apparently, Federal bulk pack is probably around 1100 FPS out my Buckmark... never bothered to actually chrono it before. You bring up a pretty good point and something I probably should have noted earlier. The SP101 is a heavy gun compared to a steel J frame. It's way heavier than an airweight and two of the scandium guns would probably weigh less. I like my guns heavy enough that I can stand to shoot them with decent ammo. I'm more inclined to practice with something that doesn't hurt to shoot than I am if it did hurt. I'll readily admit that I don't shoot enough, but when I did, I could cut a ragged hole at 3-4 yards while smashing the trigger as fast as possible....and I was using the mag loads to do it. I'll also readily admit that there is no way I'd shoot standard magnums through an airweight or lighter gun. The J frame isn't really pleasant IMO with standard .38 loads. |
|
Quoted: After reading the results, I advise checking the cylinder gap on your S&W Model 28. I'm starting to wonder as well, buddy. I'm looking for my notes, but I remember the R357M1 load hitting nearly 1550 from my 5 inch M27. Out of a 6 inch 586, it broke 1600. Good to see you using them old Keith boolits. You get that 358439 mould in and I'll swap you some lead for some of those. |
|
Quoted:
After reading the results, I advise checking the cylinder gap on your S&W Model 28.
The 28 is a pretty heavily used gun. I would bet that if I sent it to S&W, they would recommend setting the barrel back a turn and recutting the forcing cone...and I'm just guessing at that based on the flame cut. Anyway, the gap is between .008" and .009". A little wider than I'd like, but not huge. The SP101 is about .007". |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Cool info, machinist. The people who claim 357 is worthless in snubs are just being pussies. "Owwww! Shooting 357's in a snubbie hurts my hands!" "Owwwww! It's toooo loud!" Recoil isn't a problem, but the blast gives me pause. I'm curious how much more noise a 2 inch barrel makes over a 6 (what I have). The blast is...not pleasant. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
If anyone has some real world chrono data on the +P .38 loads, I'd really like to see it. Even if the Speer GDSB load manages to actually make 860 from a real gun, that's still over a 400 fps difference from a mag load in another real gun. If it warms up at all here over the weekend (yeah, like that will happen) I will take out my chrono and some GDSB +P (which is my carry load for my BUG, a 442). For me, though, .38+P is the limit on reasonable recoil out of a lightweight pocket gun. I can't imagine trying to get off a cylinder of full-power .357 loads from one of those Scandium-framed J's in a relatively short timespan (with acceptable accuracy). ETA - Hey, shooting stuff in the cold and rain is still fun.
I just need to remember to bring subsonic .22LR next time... apparently, Federal bulk pack is probably around 1100 FPS out my Buckmark... never bothered to actually chrono it before. I carry a scandium J frame as my every day gun. It is unpleasant to shoot with 158 gr .357 soft points (which is what I carry in it, and shoot a cylinder's worth per practice), but I have found a much lighter load that shoots to the same point of impact to practice with. The recoil is heavy and unpleasant but manageable. I hope to never fire the gun with out ear muffs though - my hearing is bad enough and that would probably just finish it off. Firing it at night with out earmuffs would be a louder and probably brighter version of a flash bang.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
After reading the results, I advise checking the cylinder gap on your S&W Model 28.
I'm starting to wonder as well, buddy. I'm looking for my notes, but I remember the R357M1 load hitting nearly 1550 from my 5 inch M27. Out of a 6 inch 586, it broke 1600. Good to see you using them old Keith boolits.
You get that 358439 mould in and I'll swap you some lead for some of those. Your 27 has seen a lot less use than my 28. This gun has a flame cut nearly all the way across the topstrap that is several thousandths deep. I really need to factory letter the gun since it appears to have nickel plating under what's left of the black spray paint. I think the only reason I've never tried to get one is how enraged I would be if Mr. Jinks said it was one of the five factory nickel salesman sample guns. I'd have to track the responsible party down and go darth vader on him.
All of my other 4" guns are K frames, as is the only 6" gun I have. The only L frame is an 8.375", and I didn't figure anyone actually carried one that long. I thought the HP version was supposed to be 358430...or is that the hollow base version? Guess I need to go back through Sixguns again. |
|
Quoted: I thought the HP version was supposed to be 358430...or is that the hollow base version? Guess I need to go back through Sixguns again. Yeah, 358430 is hollow base. VERY rare in original Lyman blocks. Probably worth a crapload of cash if you find one. I saw you were in the 358439 groupbuy, though. I'm gonna have to sit this one out.
|
Yep, I'm in on it. I hope it's as good or better than my 358429. The group buy on the 454424 didn't work out so well for me.  I still have the out of round bullets from the replacement mold sitting here at the computer. Al said he had bullets from that mold checked and they came out MUCH better than what I got. I still haven't figured out what the problem was and Al didn't have any answers either.
|
|
Again, it isnt the exterior ballistics that matter so much, instead its the terminal ballistics that matter most. What chronos say, versus how the bullets performs are two different things.
If shot placement is same and how is it that an admittedy fragmeting, and thus shallow penetrating(by Rem.) 125gr .357mag SJHP going 1,100fps better than a robust expanding, deep penetrationg .38spec+P at 850fps going to better? It isnt. Look at what the late Jim Cirillo designed for snub revolvers, a plated wadcutter with sharp corners trucking along at 800-900fps. He wanted deep penetration even if it sacrificed expansion, and the ability to empty the cylinder accurately and quickly. Anywho, if a JHP come out fast, but dont expand, or they frag as they do expand, it doesnt do a whole lot of good. They are going to bore the same holes in flesh I have a friend on DPD that is a huge fan of all things .357. He used a S&W 66 20 years ago to dispatch a cop killer, since then he's loved the round. He went to the 9mm(P228) later on, and when DPD started authorizing the .357sig, he jumped on it. DPD still authorizes the .357mag though. You can carry it in a 4-inch barrel, or snub. He doesnt carry it in the snubs he has. Not that he cant handle it, he can, but after watching a Winchester(who supplies virtually all ammo including the dept issue .357mag load) demonstration of ammo performance several years ago, he started carrying the dept issued.38spec in his snub. For the record he also went back to 9mm(147gr RA9T) last year. For the record my favorite .357mag load is Winchesters 180gr Partition Gold. |
|
Quoted:
I've got one of these things coming in this week. http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/178013_large.jpg I don't know if I should sell it or keep it. I have a 686 and a Winchester 1894 Legacy in .357 Mag already that I don't shoot. I got a good mind to sell the whole damn lot of 'em. Load up some 148gr Wadcutter .38s and rediscover why you enjoy shooting a revolver in the first place. Ok, I admit I have a dog in the race- I am interested in how well the .357 Kit gun shoots wadcutters. I need a kit gun with a bit more oomph than my S&W Model 63 .22lr.
|
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Myth: .357 is useless in snubbies, low velocities, blah blah. Update with carbine data in OP (Page 1 of 2)
Join the Community
Your next conversation starts here.
Create your free account to join discussions, share your experience, save topics, and connect with the AR15.COM community.
- Join discussions
- Follow topics and replies
- Connect with fellow enthusiasts
Already a member? Sign in
Stay informed by subscribing to our Newsletter