[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Myth: .357 is useless in snubbies, low velocities, blah blah. Update with carbine data in OP (Page 2 of 2)
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I've got one of these things coming in this week. http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/178013_large.jpg I don't know if I should sell it or keep it. I have a 686 and a Winchester 1894 Legacy in .357 Mag already that I don't shoot. I got a good mind to sell the whole damn lot of 'em. I felt one of those up at a gunshow. I sure did like it. 
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They need to bring those carbines back...........I need a .357 lever gun to go with my .38 snubbie..........
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Do you have a carbine to shoot and test with the same loads? My wife has one of the discontinued Marlin 1894 CP(16.25" ported  ) carbines in .357. |
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They need to bring those carbines back...........I need a .357 lever gun to go with my .38 snubbie.......... Quoted:
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Do you have a carbine to shoot and test with the same loads? My wife has one of the discontinued Marlin 1894 CP(16.25" ported ) carbines in .357.The 18.5" barrel version is still available. I'm about to go do more shooting with the factory stuff I have available and run a few rounds through the carbine for comparison. As long as the chrono picks up and I don't forget to write stuff down, I should be updating with more info in a little while. |
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Stupid question here...At what length does the barrel on a pistol caliber carbine start hurting velocity due powder burning too quickly and pressure falling off before the projectile exits the barrel ? I don't know the answer to that question but a 18.5" barreled .357 Marlin is a whole different ball game compared to a handgun. Much more power. |
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so hte answer would be..."no problem at any practical length"? Maybe once you get past 28" in length. I vaguely remember reading in Shotgun Digest when I was a kid that shotguns actually begin losing velocity once you get past 34" bbl length. Or maybe I dreamt it. |
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Since I've seen it posted a bunch of times that .357 ammo is worthless in snubbies because there is only a "100-200 fps" difference in velocity, and I wanted to go test some handloads anyway, I packed up a 4" M28 and my 2.25" SP101 along with some ammo and my chronograph. It's about 40 degrees outside and there is a light rain, so I didn't bother with a bunch of pics. The mag ammo I carry is Remington 125 grain SJHP, not really anything special. Five rounds were fired through each gun to get an average velocity. Range: http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b20/imakechips/gun%20stuff/100_1586.jpg Rem 125 grain SJHP magnums, same as what's on the left in this pic(the new boxes) Product code R357M1: http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b20/imakechips/bullets/100_1379.jpg I didn't get a pic of the handloads, but this is the same bullet in a magnum case. All I'm going to say on this load is Elmer Keith, 358429 bullet, and 38/44 High Velocity. http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b20/imakechips/gun%20stuff/100_1422.jpg And then a cheezy .38 special load I had laying around, some Monarch 158 grain JSP. Actually the only fresh box of factory .38 ammo I have. http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b20/imakechips/bullets/100_1589.jpg Before I go any further, I want to say that no, I didn't test any of the latest .38 +p ammo. I don't have any because I don't carry it, and it's too expensive for me(right now anyway) to just buy a box to blast it over a chrono. I have looked at the numbers claimed by the various manufacturers of .38 +P in the same weight range as my mag loads though. Federal lists the 129 grain hydrashock at 950 fps, barrel length isn't specified. I'm going to guess that they used a 4" vented barrel, but I don't know for sure. 950 fps sounds pretty optimistic for a 2" barrel though. Remington lists the 125 grain GSHP at 975 fps from a 4" barrel. Speer lists the 135 grain GDSB load at 860 fps from a 2" vented barrel. Winchester lists the 125 grain silvertip at 945 fps from a vented 4" barrel. Also listed is a 130 grain load under the "Elite" line at 904 fps, no barrel length or type specified. The majors mfgs are covered by the above. So without further interruption... Monarch––Note: These numbers are correct and the guns were shot back to back. This ammo is inconsistent crap. M28 = 636 fps Extreme spread of 116 fps.
SP101 = 731 fps Extreme spread of 83 fps. 38/44 High Velocity load(this bullet, from my mold, weighs 176 grains lubed and sized) M28 = 1172 fps SP101 = 1103 fps Rem 125 grain SJHP Mag load(which is rated at 1450 from a vented 4" by remington) M28 = 1358 fps SP101 = 1298 fps Your mileage will obviously vary. If anyone has some real world chrono data on the +P .38 loads, I'd really like to see it. Even if the Speer GDSB load manages to actually make 860 from a real gun, that's still over a 400 fps difference from a mag load in another real gun. Shooting stuff in the cold and rain isn't fun.  If you decide to do anymore testing, I'd like to see what hot loaded 158gr JHPs would get from the snub vs the 4" barrel. |
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Cool write up! Still a couple questions, though –– Velocity is all well and good, but is there an improvement in performance (penetration, expansion) between the "preferred" .38+p loads and the .357 load tested here? I can't answer that at present. I wouldn't hesitate to say that the SJHP will expand, at least some, down to 1k or possibly under. At the higher velocities, it fragments somewhat like M193 from the few tests I've seen on it. Lots of advancements have been made with JHP's, since the majority used to be designed with an 800 fps floor for expansion, and I won't argue that point with anyone. I simply don't trust a JHP to expand much below that, and it appears that most loads will probably be close to that threshold at the muzzle. If I were carrying .38 loads, it would be the old "treasury load" of a 158 grain LSWCHP at +P. They're soft and they'll expand, even at the low velocity the .38 is capable of. Assuming there is an improvement, is that performance worth the cost/weight of the gun, recoil, and blast?
That's going to be up to the end user. Knowing the mag load will work versus wondering about the +P .38 is more than worth it to me. Do you suppose this effect might be why 357 developed a reputation for good terminal performance as compared to 9mm? I've always wondered about that. On paper, the difference between 357 and 9mm wouldn't suggest an a very wide performance gap, but a lot of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, seem to suggest that 357 resides in some kind of ballistic sweet spot where it just flat out works. |
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Stupid question here...At what length does the barrel on a pistol caliber carbine start hurting velocity due powder burning too quickly and pressure falling off before the projectile exits the barrel ? I don't know the answer to that question but a 18.5" barreled .357 Marlin is a whole different ball game compared to a handgun. Much more power. Indeed. From a 16, 18, or 20 inch barrel, 357 magnum starts reaching into 7.62x39 territory. It's a different cartridge in a rifle than a handgun. |
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Stupid question here...At what length does the barrel on a pistol caliber carbine start hurting velocity due powder burning too quickly and pressure falling off before the projectile exits the barrel ? I don't know the answer to that question but a 18.5" barreled .357 Marlin is a whole different ball game compared to a handgun. Much more power. Indeed. From a 16, 18, or 20 inch barrel, 357 magnum starts reaching into 7.62x39 territory. It's a different cartridge in a rifle than a handgun. My dad shot a large whitetail buck with his Marlin 1894 w/ 158gr JSP Federals once. Went through the left front shoulder and caught in the hide (not exiting) the left rear loin. Range was 100 yards. I have also shot clean holes in 1/4" plate steel with a Marlin 1894 at 50 or so yards. S&W 6" 686 would only dent it at that range. Same ammo. |
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How do you like it? I looked for one in.45 acp, but they are hard to find...............a friend has the .357 and likes it alot
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This is good to see. I have this 327 and I was wondering about velocity. I bought it on a whim. It's still a fun revolver, but it makes me wish I had a 4" or 6" version with better sights. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/salmonaxe/SW_327_Snubby_2_LOW.jpg |
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Ok, I just came in and changed out of wet pants/socks/shoes. Dinner is on the stove, so I'll work on updating while I eat. Unfortunately, I ran out of daylight and didn't get to test a couple of loads through the SP101. I got everything from the original test, plus a couple of other loads run through the carbine.
Stay tuned. 
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Fucking awesome post man.
Beautiful gun. I had one and I loaned it out and he claimed it was stolen. It's on my list to buy if I see one. I knew it would be big, but WOW! that's huge. I laughed a the mishap and then cringed. Glad it still works though. Thanks for doing that. If we ever get together, I'll bring my 16" 9mm and my 6in SBR and a few pistols and see what they do. |
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I've been jonesing for one of the Puma-ish 92 carbines in .357 Mag. Either a 24 or 20 inch barrel. I'd really like to see what they'd hit from both of those. Oh, I wouldn't mind a 20" Rossi/Puma 92 carbine in .357. It could keep my 28-2 company. And keep the local pest population down. (I like to make a statement with pest elimination, not just "do the job" quietly) |
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Quoted: Quoted: I've been jonesing for one of the Puma-ish 92 carbines in .357 Mag. Either a 24 or 20 inch barrel. I'd really like to see what they'd hit from both of those. Oh, I wouldn't mind a 20" Rossi/Puma 92 carbine in .357. It could keep my 28-2 company. And keep the local pest population down. (I like to make a statement with pest elimination, not just "do the job" quietly) Those 110 Federal JHPs or the Remington or Federal 125 SJHPs would probably be explosive on varmints. |
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I've been jonesing for one of the Puma-ish 92 carbines in .357 Mag. Either a 24 or 20 inch barrel. I'd really like to see what they'd hit from both of those. Oh, I wouldn't mind a 20" Rossi/Puma 92 carbine in .357. It could keep my 28-2 company. And keep the local pest population down. (I like to make a statement with pest elimination, not just "do the job" quietly) Those 110 Federal JHPs or the Remington or Federal 125 SJHPs would probably be explosive on varmints. I think 20" is probably about all the barrel you can use on a .357 carbine. Going up to 24" probably won't gain much velocity, if any...might actually do the opposite. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've been jonesing for one of the Puma-ish 92 carbines in .357 Mag. Either a 24 or 20 inch barrel. I'd really like to see what they'd hit from both of those. Oh, I wouldn't mind a 20" Rossi/Puma 92 carbine in .357. It could keep my 28-2 company. And keep the local pest population down. (I like to make a statement with pest elimination, not just "do the job" quietly) Those 110 Federal JHPs or the Remington or Federal 125 SJHPs would probably be explosive on varmints. I think 20" is probably about all the barrel you can use on a .357 carbine. Going up to 24" probably won't gain much velocity, if any...might actually do the opposite. Go slow enough on the powder, like 296 or 2400, and I bet you'll still gain some. Faster than that will probably have negative results, though. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've been jonesing for one of the Puma-ish 92 carbines in .357 Mag. Either a 24 or 20 inch barrel. I'd really like to see what they'd hit from both of those. Oh, I wouldn't mind a 20" Rossi/Puma 92 carbine in .357. It could keep my 28-2 company. And keep the local pest population down. (I like to make a statement with pest elimination, not just "do the job" quietly) Those 110 Federal JHPs or the Remington or Federal 125 SJHPs would probably be explosive on varmints. I think 20" is probably about all the barrel you can use on a .357 carbine. Going up to 24" probably won't gain much velocity, if any...might actually do the opposite.  I has no chrono.... |
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I've been jonesing for one of the Puma-ish 92 carbines in .357 Mag. Either a 24 or 20 inch barrel. I'd really like to see what they'd hit from both of those. Oh, I wouldn't mind a 20" Rossi/Puma 92 carbine in .357. It could keep my 28-2 company. And keep the local pest population down. (I like to make a statement with pest elimination, not just "do the job" quietly) Those 110 Federal JHPs or the Remington or Federal 125 SJHPs would probably be explosive on varmints. I think 20" is probably about all the barrel you can use on a .357 carbine. Going up to 24" probably won't gain much velocity, if any...might actually do the opposite. Go slow enough on the powder, like 296 or 2400, and I bet you'll still gain some. Faster than that will probably have negative results, though. Hodgdon data shows Lil' Gun leaving H110 in the dust. It's quite a bit slower than 2400, max load of 17 grains with a jacketed 170 grain. I got darn close to the 1500 fps they listed for the 10" test barrel with 1430 fps average from the 8.375". Alliant shows a 14.5 grain max with a 170 jacketed for 2400. They claim approximately 1170 fps from a 6" barrel...which sounds awfully slow. My 38/44 load was faster from a 4" barrel..... |
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I picked up quite a bit of Rem 125gr JHP bullets (reloading components) the year before last from Cabelas, but haven't gotten around to developing a load for it. Waiting on the tax man to shuck out those refund bucks so that I can repair the chrono that I shot 
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c256/arfcompics/100_2728.jpg What kind of front sight is that? Do you really like it better than the factory sight? I started reloading last year with the 357 and I'm glad I did. Premium ammo selection is pretty crappy right now. I just bought a box of the Remington 125 sjhp ($40!!!) and I always wondered what the velocity was like. I knew it was a hell of a lot better than a 38 special load. THANKS! |
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Quoted: Quoted: What kind of front sight is that? Do you really like it better than the factory sight? <hijack> That is a "Small Wonder" fiber optic sight from Gemini Custom. And no, I did not like it better. The fiber optic only worked outdoors. And I badly bungled the installation It was replaced last year with a Trijicon tritium front sight, which I should have gotten from the get-go. |
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great thread.
real info, real data. just what a thread should be! I've got a case of the speer 135gr gdhp for my sp101, but it's good to know that the 357 does indeed offer a performance advantage that may offset the recoil/blast. the sp101 is for my wife, I want her to shoot 'lighter' 38's in a 'heavier' 357 - and it works, she likes it alot. but I will now keep some 357's on hand too (and am so buying a lever gun now, WOW those numbers are amazing!) |
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That's great information, machinistx. Thanks for your work! The carbine is certainly a viable weapon.
Here's my only .357, but it's highly configurable: 
Tiger the Cat is unfortunately deceased. I had to put him down a few years back, at age 18. Here's the Dan Wesson sans cat. 
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Just saw the carbine update. Great info!
Out of a carbine, 357 magnum starts getting in 30-30 and 7.62x39 territory...and it makes a 35 caliber hole instead of a 30 caliber hole. Granted, 357's velocity falls off faster so it doesn't have as much range, but within 75 yards or so, I don't see that 357 gives up anything to x39 or 30-30. |