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Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:17:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


Unless you tried to kill a bear with a 12 gauge slug and failed... what you just typed makes no sense.


There is but one way to settle this. I challange you to a grizzly bear hunt. You use a 12 ga. with slugs and I will use a 45-70. You may go first.


No there is more than one way. You admit your statement about 12 gauge slugs failing to kill deer with proper shot placement is silly... and then some day in my life I will be lucky enough to hunt a brown bear and use the same .308 I've used to kill every animal that has been on the open end of the barrel.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:19:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By burns117:
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


I have killed bear deer and man with 12 gauge slugs and nothing says dead right now better than a slug.


+1

I've killed a metric ton of meat with slugs and they've never failed me...even on some of the poorer shots.

Konger

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:19:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 5:21:37 PM EDT by Headless_T_Gunner]
Originally Posted By only1asterisk:
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By only1asterisk:
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


Unless you tried to kill a bear with a 12 gauge slug and failed... what you just typed makes no sense.


There is but one way to settle this. I challange you to a grizzly bear hunt. You use a 12 ga. with slugs and I will use a 45-70. You may go first.





You pay and I'm in.


How about the loser pays?



Define loser?


The one with the most stitches at the end of the challange.

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:19:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
45/70 but the 12 gauge is much more versatile.

The GG is a one trick pony compared to an 870 with mag slug loads and buckshot and birdshot in the pack.

But in the face of a griz, I would want a .375 or bigger.




He did not ask which was more versatile. The question was pretty simple.


Yes, and I answered it. 45/70. And I expanded on my answer with discussion.

Your answer, however,
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Well the 45-70 has killed just about every animal on earth. 12 ga. slugs sometimes fail to kill deer. Does that answer your question?


was at best a riddle and at worst a poor attempt at logic. .22LR has killed about every animal on earth too. A poorly hit deer with anything will fail to kill it. So, is the .22LR the answer? Of course not.

RIF


Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:20:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Originally Posted By theliberating1:

Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


Unless you tried to kill a bear with a 12 gauge slug and failed... what you just typed makes no sense.


There is but one way to settle this. I challange you to a grizzly bear hunt. You use a 12 ga. with slugs and I will use a 45-70. You may go first.


No there is more than one way. You admit your statement about 12 gauge slugs failing to kill deer with proper shot placement is silly... and then some day in my life I will be lucky enough to hunt a brown bear and use the same .308 I've used to kill every animal that has been on the open end of the barrel.



I am not admittin nuthin.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:24:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bluetick357:
45-70 with garret 540grn hammerheads @1550 fps


Thems badazz!!



http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp


ENERGY: 2880 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 55; MEPLAT: .360"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-CUP; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .368; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS; ZERO @ 100-YDS; -6.5" @ 150-YDS
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:27:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By burns117:
Originally Posted By Headless_T_Gunner:
Ok. Lets try this logic. Who you going to believe, someone who has actually killed a bear or someone who has a lot of experience reading about shotgun slugs on the internet?


I have killed bear deer and man with 12 gauge slugs and nothing says dead right now better than a slug.


Wait, have you killed bear, deer and man... ?

Or have you killed bear, deer, and man...?

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:27:38 PM EDT
whichever one holds more bullets...just in case
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:31:08 PM EDT
RPG-7. We apparently have enough of them floating around the US to arm the mexican drug cartels, so it shouldn't be too hard to find one.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:32:21 PM EDT
For me it is a bit of a toss up. I think that one would be faster with follow ups with a 12, but cheap slugs are likely to glance off and mushroom on bone and there are not many hardened slugs available as far as I know. With the monster bears this would be bad, but not as big a deal with smaller bears.

There are plenty of .45-70 loads meant for use with the Marlins that are designed from the get go as a bear defense round. Big, heavy, and hard.


Then there are some assholes who just can't seem to leave well enough alone....





I have no idea of what the weight is on these. What is weird is that I found them along the shooting lane in the pistol range and not on the back stop. I do not know how they got there.


Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:34:40 PM EDT
Gratuitous 4 Bore pics:







Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:36:33 PM EDT
.50 BMG
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:37:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:37:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Augie11:
Gratuitous 4 Bore pics:




Those don't seem to be for sale at ANY price.

I wanted one of these for my collection.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:46:19 PM EDT
I carry a Vang comp 870P loaded with brenneke black magic 1oz slugs.

I do not feel undergunned if I run into any of the big guys.

just my .02
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:47:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:56:59 PM EDT
12 gauge but loaded with birdshot. I've been told time after time on ARFCOM that an ounce of birdshot is equal to an ounce of slug.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:59:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 6:01:58 PM EDT by Headless_T_Gunner]
Originally Posted By Remy_Martin:
12 gauge but loaded with birdshot. I've been told time after time on ARFCOM that an ounce of birdshot is equal to an ounce of slug.



Yes that is very true but a stack of dimes works better than either a slug or bird shot. However my pitbull could kill a griz quicker than any gun.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:00:35 PM EDT
A 12 ga with the right slugs would be better than a 45-70. You can't beat the firepower of a pump or semi-auto shotgun. A lever gun just can't keep up. But you have to pick the right slug load. Most conventional slugs can be stopped with a single large telephone book at 25 yards. It's because they are nothing but soft lead. The Brenneki slugs will penetrate deeply. I haven't tried the sabolt slugs. Do your own testing at 25 yards.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:07:43 PM EDT
Are we talking about smooth bore slugs or rifled sabot slugs?
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:11:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 6:13:56 PM EDT by The_Reaper]
Dixie Terminator Slug:

0.730" diameter, 730 grain hard cast lead. (1.67 ounces) 1250fps.

Taylor Knock-out value: 95

Created specifically for dangerous game.








Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:11:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 2A373:
Originally Posted By bluetick357:
45-70 with garret 540grn hammerheads @1550 fps


I flinched just reading that!



double ouch!
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:14:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CK:
500 S&W Magnum = 440 grain .50 cal @ 1600 fps


Does anyone make a levergun in .500 S&W?
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:16:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 50-140:
I carry a Vang comp 870P loaded with brenneke black magic 1oz slugs.

I do not feel undergunned if I run into any of the big guys.

just my .02


I agree with the above. Seems like the best and most handy/reliable option out there. Lever guns are great, just not for everyone. Almost everyone can pump an 870.

12ga is a winner in my book.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:23:03 PM EDT
I have lived and hunted in Alaska. First of all, a .375 H&H is what I saw a lot of guys using. I used a 300 Win Mag for awhile until I went with something bigger at the urging of people living there longer than me who thought I was nuts to use a 300 Win Mag. When I would go on a grizzly hunt, I would have the .375 Sako and my buddy would back me up with a 1300 Defender stoked with slugs and 00 buck. This is what we did. We were in a desolate place where the bear were very active. You could see fresh steaming poos and you could actually smell the wet dog smell from the bears in the area. We did not play around in their midst.

On a black bear hunt with my buddy in Alaska, I was witness to the what devastation a well placed shot from a Rem 700 .308 could do. He dropped a monster black bear like a rock. There was no movement, no second shot needed. That bear was done for. And this was with a freaking .308!

I didn't see a lot of guys using lever guns, but I saw .375 HH and for some reason, a ton of folks liked .338 win mag.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:24:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tolip:
Originally Posted By CK:
500 S&W Magnum = 440 grain .50 cal @ 1600 fps


Does anyone make a levergun in .500 S&W?


Nope, runs at too high a pressure.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:27:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:32:55 PM EDT
From Hornady's website:

45-70,325 gr.
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
muzzle 100 yds 200 yds 300 yds
2050/3032 1729/2158 1450/1516 1225/1083


12 Gauge 300 gr. SST Slug 8623
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd
2000/2644 1641/1793 1341/1198

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:44:57 PM EDT
For me, between the two choices, I would pick my shotgun.

I'm more confident in my abilities with a shotgun. Mine shotgun is the Mossberg 590, 9 shots, with a Knoxx Specops Stock. I would attach the bayonet, too.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:45:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Dixie Terminator Slug:

0.730" diameter, 730 grain hard cast lead. (1.67 ounces) 1250fps.

Taylor Knock-out value: 95

Created specifically for dangerous game.


http://home.mchsi.com/~the_reaper/dixie1.jpg

http://home.mchsi.com/~the_reaper/dixie2.jpg

http://home.mchsi.com/~the_reaper/dixie3.jpg



And tell me that doesn't kick like a cheerleader after you tell her you just screwed her sister too.

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:55:03 PM EDT
My only 12 ga. is a pre 1918 Remington model 11, so I am quite comfortable with this for those huge Texas bears.


Link Posted: 2/26/2009 7:01:01 PM EDT
10/22 and a Federal Value pack
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 7:20:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Subconscious:
RPG-7. We apparently have enough of them floating around the US to arm the mexican drug cartels, so it shouldn't be too hard to find one.


Only because the drug cartels are coming across the border and buying them from the local gun stores. But don't worry, Eric Holder is going to fix that.... Wait, wrong thread.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 7:30:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sig_Fan:
On a black bear hunt with my buddy in Alaska, I was witness to the what devastation a well placed shot from a Rem 700 .308 could do. He dropped a monster black bear like a rock. There was no movement, no second shot needed. That bear was done for. And this was with a freaking .308!


I know a few black bear hunters down here, and a couple up in Minnesota that use the wimpy old 30-30 with no problem.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 7:30:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Power2thePeople:
10/22 and a Federal Value pack


I give you:

Originally Posted By oxnardkid:
I may not be answering the question but I get this question alot. Beside hunting and shooting my main hobby is geology and I do lots of camping and hiking sometimes for days at a time. I carry a Ruger 22/45 22lr. The truth is of all the animals you mention and the rest of the north american game the Mountain Lion is the most likely to attack you, and it is still very rare. Once I came back to my camp to find a bear going through my camp, two shots in the air and the bear was gone. Now if the bear had a cub with it I could have had my AR-10 with me and I still would have been in trouble. I used my 22 for the next two days to shoot rabbits and birds, try shooting a rabbit or bird with a 44 mag! The only thing better than a good 22 in the backcountry is a dog that is willing to wear a backpack, carries his own stuff, and scares away lions. Another thing you may want to think about, try carrying 100 rounds of 44 mag in pocket for the day!




From this thread:http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=33&t=70656
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 7:48:39 PM EDT
I'd be comfortable with a slug gun and good sabot style slugs maybe those solid copper deals? I shot a deer last season with a remington Copper slug and it wa absolutley devastating. The deer dropped and didnt move. The slug tore a hole out the exit side the size of a baseball.

I would imagine it would do some hurt on any type of N. American game.

I would think that a pump shotgun with an 18-20" barrel and 3" magnbum copper slugs or hard cast type sabots would be just fine and handle very nice for a nasty old bear in the north country at close range.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 8:19:02 PM EDT
45/70
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 8:26:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:
I use an aluminum baseball bat for bear defense.


ARFCOM taught me this.


Stern look raised eye brow...


And a Swiss army knife.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 8:29:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 8:30:10 PM EDT by shasta69]
Originally Posted By Hipwrguitar:
From Hornady's website:

45-70,325 gr.
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
muzzle 100 yds 200 yds 300 yds
2050/3032 1729/2158 1450/1516 1225/1083


12 Gauge 300 gr. SST Slug 8623
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd
2000/2644 1641/1793 1341/1198



having used that hornady 325gr load against alaskan moose, i would NOT used it on a bear. the leverolution round is
not desigened to retain any shape after hitting bone.

a good hard cast 45/70 would be my first (and only) choice.

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 8:38:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2009 10:50:59 PM EDT by NwG]
.45-70 loaded with the 405 grain Belt Mountain "Punch" bullet at +P level.. Something like 2,050 FPS / 3,780 ft/lbs !! solid lathe turned copper / brass bullet with a lead base core.

"After penetrating 13 inches of live hickory and 5 inches of dry paper, the 400-grain Punch Bullet shows almost no signs of deformation and 100% weight retention. These bullets really perform"



Ya at $120.00 a box of 20 it is a little much!
Or a 12ga with slugs...

I have both the 1895 and the 12ga.. Guess I would just have to take both and switch every few days / hours / min.....Carry both!

ETA- Correct round specs and some pics of the Oh so angry bullet!
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 8:46:39 PM EDT
12 gauge birdshot, of course. At longer range, it'll blind the bear, and at close range the shot will still be in the shot cup and act exactly a slug, because 1 oz of lead is 1 oz of lead, regardless of its shape. Gel tests, or experience actually shooting animals, do not matter - I know it will be lethal because I have shot lots of clay birds with it.














Not really. I've got a 12 gauge, so I'd go with slugs, I wouldn't have to spend another $500 on another gun.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 9:09:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NwG:
.45-70 loaded with the 405 grain Belt Mountain "Punch" bullet at +P level.. Something like 1,850 FPS solid lathe turned copper / brass bullet with a lead base core.

"After penetrating 13 inches of live hickory and 5 inches of dry paper, the 400-grain Punch Bullet shows almost no signs of deformation and 100% weight retention. These bullets really perform"

Or a 12ga with slugs...

I have both the 1895 and the 12ga.. Guess I would just have to take both and switch every few days / hours / min.....Carry both!


http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse-22/45-dsh-70––pls-P-405-Grain/Detail.bok

Christ... at $6 each, they'd better really perform
Link Posted: 2/27/2009 4:54:53 AM EDT
I'd go with my Benelli M4 and chock full o hardest slugs I could find. If it were just for defense that is and if it were really close I would shoot the Grizzly until I stopped peeing in my pants.

I really do not understand how this question of 2 different guns can be answered with just one or the other. Like I said earlier wouldn't the question be more realistic if it were

45/70 with XYZ round or 12 gauge with XYZ shell? There is obviously a lot more to the issue than the caliber...
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