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Posted: 12/30/2010 4:20:55 PM EDT
what the hell do I do now? can anyone give me some load data from a reputable source with this powder and bullet that will actually fit? |
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Could be a misprint.
I'm looking at my Hornady's 5th edition manual (first one I could find - 7th is around here somewhere  ) and with their swaged 158gr semiwadcutters they show a OAL of 1.450" with a MAX OAL of 1.550". I would recheck Lee's recommendations in other prints and online.
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Neither of those rounds are seated correctly. They are supposed to be seated to the crimp ring (top one). They don't look to be crimped at all. Also they don't appear to have any lube in the lube ring (bottom). Did you cast those yourself? neither of them have any powder either, they are lubed, they are just not pan lubed (alox) I see no reason to crimp them if I'm not going to shoot them yes they are my creations |
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Could be a misprint. I'm looking at my Hornady's 5th edition manual (first one I could find - 7th is around here somewhere ) and with their swaged 158gr semiwadcutters they show a OAL of 1.450" with a MAX OAL of 1.550". I would recheck Lee's recommendations in other prints and online.yeah, lee says it is the max but they also use it as the min for this load should I be worried about using a load for a different bullet type like your SWC load? not all bullets are the same length... |
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I can't tell if they've been sized or not, but it does look like they have a forward driving band that should sit in the chamber throat to help align them with the bore. That means they need to be sized to fit the smallest throat on the gun....it looks to me like that is what's holding the longer round out of the chamber. I would seat them to the crimp groove. As mentioned, the data is probably for a RN profile instead of the WFN profile you're using. |
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I'm thinking 1.440" to 1.445" judging by your picture, maybe deeper.
Also inspect the chambers on your revolver for built up lead. Even though your bullet is too long, it shouldn''t stop it from fully entering the cylinder. It's not seated straight, which may be the reason it won't fully enter. |
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From the 28th:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=332233 Today in GD: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1131659 Let's back up a little. Where did you find the load data you're trying to use? What does the fine print say? Does it mention loading that bullet in .357 Magnum? Load data for a bullet in a particular cartridge will almost never include a wide range of COAL without including caveats on why. Otherwise, the cartridges will not work in the firearms for which they are intended. You're being cautious, and that's good for new reloaders, but there's such a thing as too much caution when you're not thinking the problem through. In this case, the data you're using leads to an illogical conclusion that can be verified three different ways. That means you have to do something else to solve the problem. Apparently our advice is not sufficient, so your next step is to buy several load manuals, and I recommend you call LEE with your question. Seat a bullet or two to the length required to function in your firearm. That's the length where they have to be seated, there's no way around that. Then you have to figure out what to do next, and that means looking at data for similar bullets, starting with bullets of the same weight, and then similar design. If all the other data you look at is overwhelmingly contrary to the one generating the original question, that probably should be considered. The longest load I can find for .38 Spl is 1.55 inches for a 158 grain Remington LSWC (I have no idea where that bullet could be found, I doubt that they exist nowadays). All the rest range around 1.455 inches or less. |
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the load data came from the lee modern reloading second edition as previously stated.
there are no mentions of loading the bullet into .357 because this load came from the .38 section. the manual does not not have loads for specific bullets, just weights. I loaded 100 rounds tonight and I can test fire them in my .357 before trying them in my .38 snub. is there anything to look out for when firing these in the .357 so I know if they will be ok in the .38? |
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the load data came from the lee modern reloading second edition as previously stated. there are no mentions of loading the bullet into .357 because this load came from the .38 section. the manual does not not have loads for specific bullets, just weights. I loaded 100 rounds tonight and I can test fire them in my .357 before trying them in my .38 snub. is there anything to look out for when firing these in the .357 so I know if they will be ok in the .38? Don't know, you didn't tell us what you've loaded. If you've loaded the charge weight we discussed before, seated the bullet to 1.45 to 1.455, and applied a crimp on the bullet, the load will be a non-event in your .357 Magnum revolver and your .38 Spl revolver. If you did not measure the gunpowder properly, you might get a surprise. Reloading is safe and we have pretty good margins of safety by following good practices. Pulling the trigger on that first round you've loaded by yourself is a huge hurdle for at least half of new reloaders, and this is where working with a mentor in person pays off. But we don't always have that option. This forum probably specializes in providing that mentor more than anything else we do here, we have coached dozens of people new to reloading through the process from the start to shooting their first load. Part of the reason we're successful is because all of us have made the same mistakes and had the same questions as you have, and the next person that comes along will have. |
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This thread has been in the back of my mind for a couple days...
Just looked at my copy of the 2nd edition of the Lee book. It does in fact for the Win231 powder under a "158 grain lead bullet" call for a minimum OAL of 1.550. Under the .38spl +p loadings for the "158 grain lead bullet" using Win231 it calls for 1.481 as the min OAL. Heres where I boggled  : .357mag load data from same book for "158 grain lead bullet" using Win231 calls for a min OAL of 1.540  So the .357mag load using same bullet and powder is supposed to be 0.010 shorter OAL than the .38spl load? 
I happened to be loading a pile of 158LSWC using Greendot recently (got a bunch cheap... trying to use it up... so far .38spl and .45acp like it alot).. the Greendot loads called for a Min OAL of 1.420. (edit: 1.460 treated my 642 and 686 to some wonderful shooting using Greendot) In dialing my dies into my Greendot loading, I did seat one that measured at 1.550... it would chamber fine in my .357mag revolvers but as shown in the OPs photos... wouldn't fully chamber in the .38spl revolvers I tried it in. My guess is misprint. I would suggest calling Lee to find out the correct data... or choosing a different powder if one must use this manual. I'd also suggest (as I do to anyone who asks me about loading) buying several more different load manuals and getting familiar with all of them. The Lyman Cast Bullet book 4th ed for example calls for a 1.445 OAL using a 158 grain hunk of lead and Win231... less powder as well. What it boils down too... I'd choose a different load as that data for Win231 in a 158gr lead for .38spl from Lee just doesn't *feel* right. Better powder choices exist in the same manual... |
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This thread has been in the back of my mind for a couple days... Just looked at my copy of the 2nd edition of the Lee book. It does in fact for the Win231 powder under a "158 grain lead bullet" call for a minimum OAL of 1.550. Under the .38spl +p loadings for the "158 grain lead bullet" using Win231 it calls for 1.481 as the min OAL. Heres where I boggled : .357mag load data from same book for "158 grain lead bullet" using Win231 calls for a min OAL of 1.540 So the .357mag load using same bullet and powder is supposed to be 0.010 shorter OAL than the .38spl load?
I happened to be loading a pile of 158LSWC using Greendot recently (got a bunch cheap... trying to use it up... so far .38spl and .45acp like it alot).. the Greendot loads called for a Min OAL of 1.420. (edit: 1.460 treated my 642 and 686 to some wonderful shooting using Greendot) In dialing my dies into my Greendot loading, I did seat one that measured at 1.550... it would chamber fine in my .357mag revolvers but as shown in the OPs photos... wouldn't fully chamber in the .38spl revolvers I tried it in. My guess is misprint. I would suggest calling Lee to find out the correct data... or choosing a different powder if one must use this manual. I'd also suggest (as I do to anyone who asks me about loading) buying several more different load manuals and getting familiar with all of them. The Lyman Cast Bullet book 4th ed for example calls for a 1.445 OAL using a 158 grain hunk of lead and Win231... less powder as well. What it boils down too... I'd choose a different load as that data for Win231 in a 158gr lead for .38spl from Lee just doesn't *feel* right. Better powder choices exist in the same manual... I looked at a 2nd Edition manual today, too. I've read the front end of a borrowed copy of the book, but never used the load data. I understand the problem now; the LEE data is for 158 grain lead bullets without regard to the design of the bullet. What's worse, it's screwed up for one of LEE's bullets. That entire section of the .38 Spl data for 158 grain lead bullets is useless in my opinion. |
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Lee data consists of reprinted data from powder and bullet manufacturers. They don't make it up, they just reprint what's already been published.
The above bullet has a crimp groove –– use it. Adjust seater to seat bullet deeply enough to the point where the case mouth coincides with the bullet's crimp groove. The .38 Spec case is big enough that seating another .010 deeper isn't going to cause huge pressure spikes, this isn't a 9mm or a .357 Sig. |
Here is the only page on 38 Special in Lee 1. Lee 1 has the same data that came with the Lee Loaders, and a little additional information. No OAL info for 38 Special, seat the bullet so you can crimp in the crimping grove of the bullet. Kind of makes sense if you think about it. 
Good luck |
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http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/PC310679.jpg http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/PC310678.jpg Here is the only page on 38 Special in Lee 1. Lee 1 has the same data that came with the Lee Loaders, and a little additional information. No OAL info for 38 Special, seat the bullet so you can crimp in the crimping grove of the bullet. Kind of makes sense if you think about it.
Good luck COAL's are listed as "Minimum" in the current manual - that's the problem, it asks for a minimum length that makes no sense for some bullets. This puts a new reloader that is trying to follow the load data to the letter into a bind, as demonstrated in these threads. He has followed the load data to a rediculous conclusion. If Minimum COAL is specified for a particular bullet design, lets say one that has two crimp grooves or no crimp grooves, that makes good sense. It's nonsense to apply a minimum to all lead bullet designs of the same weight. If netofficer3710 had started with a different combination of bullet and gunpowder, there's a fair chance he would have gained enough experience to handle this situation without second thought. |
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if I seat to the crimp groove which means the OAL is around 1.430" which is .120" shorter than recommended and load 4.1-4.2 grains of win 231 should I be ok? because I did load some ammo like this already...
I'm not going to lie, I'm really nervous about pulling the trigger on this stuff. and finding a new powder is not something I want to do, I already tried unique which doesn't meter worth a damn and I found 231 which meters great, I don't want to go on another search. |
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Who's bullet or mold is this bullet ? Is this something You've casted ? Lyman ? Need more information. Am sitting here now with Lyman book open.
<eta> According to your picture that bullet is from Lee mold. ? Correct ? I'm getting in on this late so I'm playing catch up here..... Your saying you've loaded these to crimp groove and COAL is ? According to your information and the seven manuals I have open right now. If'in I was in your shoes right now... I would start at 3.6 grains using 231. Work up, chrononograph and look for 770 to 840fps. Using my highly technical reloading method called swag. 3.6 grains will have you in the 775fps range. I still think it wise to call the phone number for Lee given to you before going any further. That said, I've swagged a lot of loads through the years and am comfortable with loading your bullet between 3.6 to 3.8 grains. P.S. Manuals are a reloaders best friend. |
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... P.S. Manuals are a reloaders best friend. The LEE manual is screwed up and completely unusable for loading lead bullets. It makes no distinction among different bullet designs. Consider how a wadcutter would look seated to that length, it would barely engage the case. Page 821 of the Hornady #7 manual show three 158 grain lead bullets made by that company. The COAL is 1.455 inches for all three. The charge weight for W231 ranges from 3.2 grains for 650 fps to 4.4 grains maximum for 850 fps from a 4 inch revolver barrel. The Hodgon pamplet gives a charge of 4.4 grains of W231 with a 158 grain lead XTP bullet loaded to 1.455 inches for 779 fps and 15900 psi CUP. This is a jacketed bullet, but the dimensions are similar. The same bullet in the Hornady manual shows powder charges ranging from 3.7 to 4.6 grains of W231 loaded to 38 Spl pressures, producing speeds from 600 to 750 fps from a 4 inch revolver. netofficer You've loaded 4.1 to 4.2 grains of W231 to 1.43 inches. Does that length put the case mouth at the top of the crimp groove, or cover it completely? You have a charge weight that is 5% down from the maximum listed in the data you have; not ideal, but better than starting at maximum. You've loaded the bullet 0.020 inches shorter than recommended for similar bullets; this is not good, and by using a powder charge so close to maximum you've added risk by reducing the case capacity by seating the bullet deeper, hence raising the pressure. If the bullets require seating to 1.43 inches to engage the crimp groove correctly, then that is a good reason to compensate by dropping back to a lower start charge about 10% down from the maximum. However, if I had this load and a modern revolver, I would shoot it. You still have a dilemma, and here's how you get out of it - Load three to six cartridges with 3.8 grains and three to six with 4.0 grains of W231, and shoot those first to see how they behave. If everything looks okay, then shoot a cylinder of the cartridges you've already loaded. Always load one cartridge in the cylinder when starting a new load you've never used before, in case something goes south, even if you're confident the load is mild. |
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... P.S. Manuals are a reloaders best friend. The LEE manual is screwed up and completely unusable for loading lead bullets. It makes no distinction among different bullet designs. Consider how a wadcutter would look seated to that length, it would barely engage the case. Page 821 of the Hornady #7 manual show three 158 grain lead bullets made by that company. The COAL is 1.455 inches for all three. The charge weight for W231 ranges from 3.2 grains for 650 fps to 4.4 grains maximum for 850 fps from a 4 inch revolver barrel. The Hodgon pamplet gives a charge of 4.4 grains of W231 with a 158 grain lead XTP bullet loaded to 1.455 inches for 779 fps and 15900 psi CUP. This is a jacketed bullet, but the dimensions are similar. The same bullet in the Hornady manual shows powder charges ranging from 3.7 to 4.6 grains of W231 loaded to 38 Spl pressures, producing speeds from 600 to 750 fps from a 4 inch revolver. netofficer You've loaded 4.1 to 4.2 grains of W231 to 1.43 inches. Does that length put the case mouth at the top of the crimp groove, or cover it completely? You have a charge weight that is 5% down from the maximum listed in the data you have; not ideal, but better than starting at maximum. You've loaded the bullet 0.020 inches shorter than recommended for similar bullets; this is not good, and by using a powder charge so close to maximum you've added risk by reducing the case capacity by seating the bullet deeper, hence raising the pressure. If the bullets require seating to 1.43 inches to engage the crimp groove correctly, then that is a good reason to compensate by dropping back to a lower start charge about 10% down from the maximum. However, if I had this load and a modern revolver, I would shoot it. You still have a dilemma, and here's how you get out of it - Load three to six cartridges with 3.8 grains and three to six with 4.0 grains of W231, and shoot those first to see how they behave. If everything looks okay, then shoot a cylinder of the cartridges you've already loaded. Always load one cartridge in the cylinder when starting a new load you've never used before, in case something goes south, even if you're confident the load is mild. If you follow this advice and fire your 38 Special loads in a 357 magnum revolver, you will be fine. Let us know how it goes. |
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Lee depends on Hornady for data and I see that's that's the direction AeroE has pointed you in. Your seating depth is low enough that charge as AeroE has stated should start on low side.
I've intentionally stayed away from casting. For one, I'd be consumed with yet another hobby. For two, When looking at molds and bullets I have a hard time visualizing from molds offered to what I'm familiar shooting with. I know Lee would be getting phone calls had I been in yours or any one casting with Lee molds shoes. This has been a good exercise in the painful fact that reloaders who cast must draw from a larger pool of resources than a non-casting reloader. Picture below is where I left things before hitting the sack. AeroE deserves a big thanks. I'm bettin he put some time in on your dilemna. 
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... P.S. Manuals are a reloaders best friend. The LEE manual is screwed up and completely unusable for loading lead bullets. It makes no distinction among different bullet designs. Consider how a wadcutter would look seated to that length, it would barely engage the case. Page 821 of the Hornady #7 manual show three 158 grain lead bullets made by that company. The COAL is 1.455 inches for all three. The charge weight for W231 ranges from 3.2 grains for 650 fps to 4.4 grains maximum for 850 fps from a 4 inch revolver barrel. The Hodgon pamplet gives a charge of 4.4 grains of W231 with a 158 grain lead XTP bullet loaded to 1.455 inches for 779 fps and 15900 psi CUP. This is a jacketed bullet, but the dimensions are similar. The same bullet in the Hornady manual shows powder charges ranging from 3.7 to 4.6 grains of W231 loaded to 38 Spl pressures, producing speeds from 600 to 750 fps from a 4 inch revolver. netofficer You've loaded 4.1 to 4.2 grains of W231 to 1.43 inches. Does that length put the case mouth at the top of the crimp groove, or cover it completely? You have a charge weight that is 5% down from the maximum listed in the data you have; not ideal, but better than starting at maximum. You've loaded the bullet 0.020 inches shorter than recommended for similar bullets; this is not good, and by using a powder charge so close to maximum you've added risk by reducing the case capacity by seating the bullet deeper, hence raising the pressure. If the bullets require seating to 1.43 inches to engage the crimp groove correctly, then that is a good reason to compensate by dropping back to a lower start charge about 10% down from the maximum. However, if I had this load and a modern revolver, I would shoot it. You still have a dilemma, and here's how you get out of it - Load three to six cartridges with 3.8 grains and three to six with 4.0 grains of W231, and shoot those first to see how they behave. If everything looks okay, then shoot a cylinder of the cartridges you've already loaded. Always load one cartridge in the cylinder when starting a new load you've never used before, in case something goes south, even if you're confident the load is mild. lee has a specific section for wad cutter loads. my start charge is a bit higher than the min because this piece of garbage lee calls a scale makes calibration of the thrower a real trick so getting a perfect consistent 4.0 (lees min charge) charge is next to impossible. I'm beginning to wonder if these bullets don't fit right because the bullets dropped from the die at .360" and I sized them to .,358. I suspect the small area foreward of the crimp groove that was sized in the process should be tapered to fit in the cylinder I'm getting so damn frustrated with this though that I'm tempted to trash the damn mold |
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Just seat the damn bullet to the crimp groove and diregard the published OAL from the manual. Don't overthink this.
Start at the starting charge for your powder. Work up to achieve your desired velocity and/or accuracy. This ain't rocket science. You aren't aren't going to harm your gun or yourself. If you are using the Lee PPM and trying to throw a 4.0 grain charge, that will be difficult. Much better would be to use use Lee's Auto Disk measure. It works much better for pistol sized charges, and reserve the PPM for rifle or heavier magnum-sized pistol charges. |
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... P.S. Manuals are a reloaders best friend. The LEE manual is screwed up and completely unusable for loading lead bullets. It makes no distinction among different bullet designs. Consider how a wadcutter would look seated to that length, it would barely engage the case. Page 821 of the Hornady #7 manual show three 158 grain lead bullets made by that company. The COAL is 1.455 inches for all three. The charge weight for W231 ranges from 3.2 grains for 650 fps to 4.4 grains maximum for 850 fps from a 4 inch revolver barrel. The Hodgon pamplet gives a charge of 4.4 grains of W231 with a 158 grain lead XTP bullet loaded to 1.455 inches for 779 fps and 15900 psi CUP. This is a jacketed bullet, but the dimensions are similar. The same bullet in the Hornady manual shows powder charges ranging from 3.7 to 4.6 grains of W231 loaded to 38 Spl pressures, producing speeds from 600 to 750 fps from a 4 inch revolver. netofficer You've loaded 4.1 to 4.2 grains of W231 to 1.43 inches. Does that length put the case mouth at the top of the crimp groove, or cover it completely? You have a charge weight that is 5% down from the maximum listed in the data you have; not ideal, but better than starting at maximum. You've loaded the bullet 0.020 inches shorter than recommended for similar bullets; this is not good, and by using a powder charge so close to maximum you've added risk by reducing the case capacity by seating the bullet deeper, hence raising the pressure. If the bullets require seating to 1.43 inches to engage the crimp groove correctly, then that is a good reason to compensate by dropping back to a lower start charge about 10% down from the maximum. However, if I had this load and a modern revolver, I would shoot it. You still have a dilemma, and here's how you get out of it - Load three to six cartridges with 3.8 grains and three to six with 4.0 grains of W231, and shoot those first to see how they behave. If everything looks okay, then shoot a cylinder of the cartridges you've already loaded. Always load one cartridge in the cylinder when starting a new load you've never used before, in case something goes south, even if you're confident the load is mild. lee has a specific section for wad cutter loads. my start charge is a bit higher than the min because this piece of garbage lee calls a scale makes calibration of the thrower a real trick so getting a perfect consistent 4.0 (lees min charge) charge is next to impossible. I'm beginning to wonder if these bullets don't fit right because the bullets dropped from the die at .360" and I sized them to .,358. I suspect the small area foreward of the crimp groove that was sized in the process should be tapered to fit in the cylinder I'm getting so damn frustrated with this though that I'm tempted to trash the damn mold Now you're just being contrary. I posted an example to illustrate why failure to account for the bullet shape can lead to a ridiculous conclusion. Whether the LEE manual has a separate section for wadcutters is irrelevent to my point. Your sizer didn't cause the problem. |
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