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Posted: 4/15/2002 8:50:33 AM EDT
With all the replies for the m-16 for bear defense, i thought i'd ask this one.
Would you rather use a .308 mbr or a shotgun with slugs?

My own weapons would be Cetme (.308) with Hirt ammo, Mossberg 500 with slugs or #1 buck.

Just curious guys, no real intentions of shooting a bear at all.

Mortis...
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 8:54:02 AM EDT
Shotgun w/ slugs
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 9:32:34 AM EDT
Its fairly even on muzzle energy. I got these figures from the Federal Cartridge Specs.

308 = 2670 ft-lbs
12 gauge slug = 2500 ft-lbs

Only thing the slug is much heavier, about 430 grains....

Link Posted: 4/15/2002 9:51:29 AM EDT
There was an article about a .45-70 in a recent "The Accurate Rifle". The .45-70 looks like a good choice.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:02:39 AM EDT
A .45-70 lever Gun would be good.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:35:48 AM EDT
i did some bear research in college with blackies.

if i were to go fishing in alaska, i would have an 870 or winchester black shadow outfitted with a over the receiver folding stock with AO tritium sights.

my slug would be a a 2 3/4 inch brenekke's all except for a last one would be 3 inch 000 buck.

the new 45-70 guide guns are awesome..i've shot a couple lately. the .450 marlin even better.

when i was in the woods in college, i carried an 870 or a .338 w/ a bull barrel that was cut to 20 inches w/ tritiums put on it.

i never had to shoot one..
i got scared a few times... but always kept my cool.

grizzlies are a different story.

we wont even discuss pistols in this scenerio..
remember there has never been a documented case to my knowledge of a handgun saving a person from a griz attack. when a pistol was used the person was atleast maimed.

the speed of motion is incredable and most people are far better off with a scattergun.



Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:38:21 AM EDT
m60, problem is their so expensive.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:43:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2002 10:46:06 AM EDT by rogerb]
I would use a .375 H&H or a .416 rigby , either one, if they can drop a cape buffalo then they will surely drop a griz. Just use a muzzle brake. By the way ever see the Fred Bear video where he drops one with a recurve bow ? Going by that a handgun would work, but i would not want to try it.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:46:10 AM EDT
CETME would probably do the trick, if you empty the magazine into the thing's face. I personally would be launching myself up a tree upon a fiery pillar of shit as I messed myself in fear, but once in the tree, my CETME would be my choice.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 12:59:16 PM EDT
The 45-70, 444 Marlin, or 450 Marlin would be good choices. The 45-70 loaded with a 400 grain JSP puts down black bear very well. In a standard Marlin lever with 24" barrel you get four rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. Your other option would be a 12-ga with slugs, fitted with an extended mag. I have an Ithaca 87 DS Police in 12 ga 2-3/4" with an 8-shot mag. More shots, but IMO the Marlin in any of the three above cartridges would penetrate better. Bears (esp. Grizzlies) have lots of thick bone and muscle. What won't penetrate will only get them PO'd.

BRS
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 1:41:03 PM EDT
My choice for a companion firearm if I ever made a trip to Alaska would be a Benelli. Any Benelli, but my favorite would be A M1S90. If you are going to be climbing in and out of aircraft and boats and such, I'd get a Entry that I could keep slung to my body, but I would keep the long barrel and a mag extension with my luggage.

Use Brennek Slugs or Savaustre FSDS slugs. 3" if you can get them. Save the buckshot for two legged predators.

Another possible option would be a 16" AR carbine in .458 SOCOM. Or a AR-10 16" in .416 Whisper.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 2:24:26 PM EDT
Another vote for 12ga. slugs - 3" Mags for me thanks! Either a Benelli M1S90 or an 870. My choice is to stay the f*ck away from grizzlies. Blacks are one thing, but a brown bear can make a sandwich out of you quick!
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 12:16:41 PM EDT
looks like everyone agrees that 12 guage slugs are best of available choices.
Thanks everyone for replying.
Mortis...
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 12:19:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BRS:
The 45-70, 444 Marlin, or 450 Marlin would be good choices. The 45-70 loaded with a 400 grain JSP puts down black bear very well. In a standard Marlin lever with 24" barrel you get four rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. Your other option would be a 12-ga with slugs, fitted with an extended mag. I have an Ithaca 87 DS Police in 12 ga 2-3/4" with an 8-shot mag. More shots, but IMO the Marlin in any of the three above cartridges would penetrate better. Bears (esp. Grizzlies) have lots of thick bone and muscle. What won't penetrate will only get them PO'd.

BRS



I second that. It's all about sectional density and penetration when dealing with dangerous and large animals.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 1:10:38 PM EDT
A friend of mine told me a story he was told by his coworkers in Prudhoe Bay.

Seems a bear came up to the window of the office complex, A guy swatted at it with a newspaper or magazine. Bear took offense. Bear came in through window and decided to eat the guy with newspaper. Another worker hearing the commotion came into the office with his 'illegally stored' (ie he didnt have it in the proper location, he had it in his office) Shotgun. The Shotgun guy put 7-9 slugs into the bear. It took a couple of minutes for the bear to stop eating the newspaper guy. Thing is they examined the bear, the majority of the slug shots were 'fatal' injuries. Just not fatal enough.

So IMHO if the bear wants to eat you, its gonna eat you unless you have something just this side of a tac nuke.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 1:16:12 PM EDT
didn't the Marine corps have a 12ga pistol called a grissly gun? It was a breech loader one shot. I guess you had to have the balls to let that bad boy get right up on top of you then wammo! I don't know if it would kill him but it would sure scare him gettin 00B to the face at close range.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 1:46:55 PM EDT
Black Bear, Anything from .45ACP on up will do the Job.
Grizzly, GOOD LUCK, Id try my FAL with a 20 round mag or 2.
If you panic under extreme pressure (The I am going to eat you when I get there kind of pressure) A 12 gauge semi auto, extended mag tube, loaded with 00 buck should at least give you a chance of hitting the charging freight train before he reaches you!
Make sure you say the Hail Mary while you are shooting!
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 3:34:10 PM EDT
Muddydog,

three years ago my logging boss was in AK laying out roads. He and his partner had their heads up their asses b/c my boss took a Ruger 9mm with 147gr JHPs for protection. His partner had a double barrel 12 ga broken down in his pack. To make a long story short, they got charged by a female brown with cubs right after getting dumped off by the Hughes 500.

My bosses partner got mauled, but not critically. My boss went back and hosed the bear with the Ruger. Bear was not killed but ended attack.

Again, the pistol did not kill the bear, but the attack ended. My boss returned to Oregon and immediately bought a .45-70 carbine.

Not recommending a pistol for bear either, but I like them better than my numchucks.

USFS training up here recommends .375 HH or Brenekke slugs.

.30-06 is a documented bear killer, so .308 will do the job, but bigger is better.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 3:39:20 PM EDT
The problem is: Their heart rate is so slow, they just don't bleed out fast enough. A head shot is the only quick kill with a big bear.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 4:10:54 PM EDT
May I suggest a tactical nuclear weapon?

A small one will probably do....... maybe.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 4:14:49 PM EDT
A M203 should take care of a Grizzly if you hit it right
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 4:58:56 PM EDT
I read an article a few years back (think it was by Ross Seyfried in G&A, not sure) that pronounced the .30-06 to be the best all around cartridge and was capable of harnessing any North American animal. I can believe that.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 5:44:50 PM EDT
There is a BIG difference between shooting a bear in a hunting situation when he is relatively unaware of the hunter. As compared to trying to stop a half ton of adrenaline charged pissed off muscle. The .30 caliber cartridges are ok for hunting. for self defense the only answer is that bigger is better.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 5:51:14 PM EDT
That short bull bbl. .338 sounds like a cool little rifle.
I've read that the 12-ga. shotgun is preferred for grizzly, but, something on the order of a 20-rd. .308 autoloader would be useful...if you take a lot of headshots.
The .45-70 is a good choice, too.

The bottom line, though, is like what the one gentleman said; a hungry bear is going to eat you, or some of you, before it backs off.
Bummer, man.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 6:40:19 PM EDT
My 590 and a tube of 3 inch 00 bucks.. If he's charging..

Nothing but a camera if he's not..
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 6:45:42 PM EDT
www.teppojutsu.com/prod01.htm

Dave S

An original full auto Tromix would do me just fine.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 9:23:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaveS:
www.teppojutsu.com/prod01.htm

Dave S

An original full auto Tromix would do me just fine.



Thanks, Dave, I needed that!
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