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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/15/2001 2:27:41 PM EDT
Ok I tried the search feature and turned up nothing. So Who owns one of these and how does it operate? Is the bolt carrier shortened? How well does it work do you think they are worth the high price? General impressions?

IPSC_GUY sends
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 3:02:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2002 7:29:21 PM EDT by Duffy]
Pick me! Pick me! lol.
The bolt carrier has a hollow rod attached, but the bolt itself is interchangable with an AR15 bolt. The return spring is mounted on top and the gas tube/rod of the bolt carrier goes through it, thus negating the need for the buffer and buffer extension. Gas is directed through the gas tube/rod and blows the bolt to the rear, the spring then forces the bolt carrier back in battery, stripping another round. The folding stock is cool, but suprisingly doesn't reduce the length (folded) much compared to an M4 with its stock collapsed. I'll post a couple of pics to illustrate the ZM's inside.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 3:31:18 PM EDT
Here you go:

Link Posted: 12/15/2001 6:44:10 PM EDT
INTERESTING to be sure. So the recoil spring is actually stretched during the cycle instead of compressed. How is reliability? Also what do you think of the folding stock? I have never been a fan of them unless you are getting in and out of vehicles a lot. The telescoping stock on an M-4 I find much more useful. So all in all which do you like better?

IPSC_GUY sends
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 7:02:01 PM EDT
It appears the rod-spring operate in fashion similar to the M1 carbine or M14 (gas piston push a rod back to unlock bolt and cycle), correct?? How about a better pic of the bolt/carrier assembly compared to the plain AR family?
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 7:57:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2001 7:51:34 PM EDT by Duffy]
IPSC, the spring is indeed compressed in recoil, here are some pics to illustrate. The folding stock is well designed in terms of its folding mechanism, you only need to press on the receiver extension and lift the stock and swing it to the left, when unfolding you just swing it to the right, no need to do anything. I wish the texture could have been better, mine is a standard stock with a rough sand paper like texture that rubbs your face as you fire it, ZM also sells a rather expensive length adjustable stock but it's smooth. Both are made of sturdy steel that's heavier than the M4 4 position variety. It's reliable and handy, I don't regret having bought it. The new ZM upper can accept a long Swan sleeve, also a tri-mount is an option but it's short (visible in the pic of the entire weapon), it's fine for a forward pistol grip, flash light, bipods adapter. Since it is a proprietary design and due to its cost (translate: limited market) not too many vendors make accessories for it, other than the AR15 family accesories that also happen to work with it (RAS doesn't work, for instance), any major improvement has to come from ZM itself. I believe the newer model of ZM has the same front and rear sight height as the AR15, so AR15 sighting accessories should work fine. Mine has a lower front and rear sight, I couldn't use any of my AR15 iron sights (C-More "tactical", Swan sleeve, or even carrying handle) with it.





Link Posted: 12/15/2001 7:58:39 PM EDT
Why in the heck does he charge so much? I could probably make one of these in a shop.

You could also do a similer thing by putting a spring behind the key and blocking off the charging handle slot.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 8:04:50 PM EDT
Olympic also makes a folder kit. Havn't seen one, or heard much about them but they are out there.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 8:05:34 PM EDT
Well I suppose R&D isn't cheap, maybe because they don't sell enough of them to bring the price down yet.
People have said for the price, they could just go buy an FNC. While true, spare parts will be much easier to find for the ZM, and for anyone familiar with an AR15, this operates the same way except for stripping and reassembly.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 8:10:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2001 8:03:53 PM EDT by Duffy]
OA-93 has similar concept but different execution, the quality of it probably can't compare to a ZM. After looking at the pics I posted previously and the ones below, I think you'd come to that conclusion as well.
OA-93:

OA-93 Carbine

OA-93TCP
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 8:23:30 PM EDT
I've had good luck with Oly stuff, all top notch. I think that OA-93 carbine looks sweet! Not as nice as a ZM but am willing to bet a whole lot cheaper.
Link Posted: 12/15/2001 8:34:28 PM EDT
hehe, did you notice my lower's manufacturer?
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 10:24:12 PM EDT
Is the ZM system substantially more reliable (ie. worths the bucks) and how does accuracy compare to the typical AR?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 11:03:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2001 11:14:39 PM EDT by Master_Blaster]
I contacted Allen Zitta, owner of ZM, and he claims that his rifles fire 1 MOA groups w/ G.I. green tips from 11.5" bbls. He told me that he already has designs for a RAS-type 4-quadrant rail system and plans on manufacturing these when he gets 200+ orders for them. He also told me he has folding front & rear sights as well. I am interested in the design, but told him that I'd wait until he begins manufacture of the 4-quad. rail system.

If it seems feasible, and if enough members get in on it, maybe we can do some kind of group purchase I've got a preban Colt receiver that I could slap a pre-ban ZM LR-300 upper on, along w/ one of the 5-pos. telefolding stocks.

The ZM website is: www.zmweapons.com

In a "Guns" magazine review of the LR-300 (www.gunsmagazine.com/Pages/0301ftr.html), they claimed to have run 3K rds through it w/o experiencing any failures; accuracy was good enough to cap X-ring groups at 100 yds.

About the only peformance concern I might have with the ZM design is that the handguards, being apparently composed of metal, will transmit a lot of bbl. heat to the shooter's hands. Duffy, what's your take on this

Anyone interested in starting a group purchase campaign
Link Posted: 12/29/2001 9:56:16 PM EDT
Master B, did Mr. Zitta mention whether his new RAS type forend would retro-fit to existing uppers? Either way, count me in!
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 1:24:52 AM EDT
blaster, the handguard (I had to do a visual on it since I forgot, it's a one piece unit) not metal, it's some kind of plastic..
I've rapid fired my ZM many times, never felt heat transmitted through the handguard. I fired about 200 rounds in less than 2 minutes, on my 20" barrel Colt the gas tube glowed red (it was at night and plainly visible) and its handguards are warm, did about the same number of rounds in the same amount of time with the ZM, it did not show such tendencies.
Link Posted: 12/30/2001 7:52:05 PM EDT
Thanks, Duffy. That pretty much removes my one possible concern. This design seems pretty faultless. This also reinforces my decision to get an ARMS SIR for my M4.

Now, there's the matter of a possible group purchase. Hmmmmmmmmmmm [:\] ZM's are definitely not your avg. basement deals, at roughly $1565.00+ dollars for a LR-300 16" pre-ban upper. With the economy in its current state, and being in the post-Christmas time of the year, the timing is probably not right for a group purchase campaign right now. I'd like to do this, but would definitely like to catch ZM after they start producing the quad-rail fore-arm and the folding front & rear sights. For me, these items are the ticket.

A-N, keep me in your email address book. When the time seems more appropriate, we should consider posting a ZM group-purchase topic & trying to coral some cantankerous AR15.com members into getting in & talking to ZM about the possibility of a group order deal. If enough members are serious, then maybe Allen Zitta would consider it. I'd have to contact him to see if he's amorable to the idea, but this sort of thing has been done (e.g. Ar15.com knife).

If you're still interested, please contact me.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 7:02:02 PM EDT
Blaster, you got it. Everything I've seen and read confirms Z-M Weapons is a first class operation. I've exchanged email with Mr. Zitta and he has been helpful and patient with his replies. You're right about the time of year--alot of guys seem to be dropping prices on prebans. Most everyone has emptied the bank at Christmas. Give it a month or two and we may be in business.
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 7:26:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2002 7:33:21 PM EDT by Duffy]
There were two ZM kits for sale at EE recently, too bad you guys missed it, they do make an appearance now and then. I got mine used from a member's tip, man I couldn't write the check fast enough.
By the way, the rifle with the ZM kit installed is heavier due to its heavy duty steel folding stock. The folding mechanism is very strong, the standard folding stock has a rough sand paper like finish, it can use some improvements in my opinion, like thinner tubes, plastic covered top tube (so it won't freeze on your face in the winter or rub against your cheek when firing). The pull adjustable stock ($340 when bought alone) is not any lighter, but has a much better finish. The sight radius is short, but the ARMS full length rail puts its own folding rear sight well behind, unfortunately it's not available to me since my front sight is different than the newer model which has a taller (same as AR15 I believe) front sight tower.
Also, if you're planning on using it on a full auto lower, the auto sear isn't enough to trip the bolt carrier, an additional hole has to be drilled on your lower.
The ZM with the stock folded is but a few inches shorter than an M4 with the stock retracted, here's an illustration:
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 8:07:30 PM EDT
Duffy, thanks for the info and great pics. I've been on the look-out for a used kit, but so far I've only seen a postban one for sale. My gunsmith tells me he can get a preban upper through Brownells at cost. I may go that route if we can't get a group purchase going when the RAS type forend shows up. By the way, is that M4 class 3?
Link Posted: 1/2/2002 8:38:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2002 8:46:24 PM EDT by Duffy]
No problem, I think you'll be very happy with it. The M4gery is a class of 91 lol. I won't have full auto weapons even if I could, for most situations it's a waste of ammo. My ZM has a tri-mount where I can mount a flash light, the pistol grip can be mounted there as well but its position would be far too forward for my preference (note the location of the grip on the M4gery), however a new ZM has its own optional forward grip that's shaped more like the rear pistol grip that can be mounted on serveral locations on the bottom of the handguard, I tried it once and it's actually nicer than the KAC vertical grip
BTW, mine is an older model that has a 14.5" barrel plus the Vortex suppressor. The newer model (300LR) has a 16" barrel plus a Phantom suppressor, so don't be surprised when it arrives and it looks longer than the pics I posted, because it is. The forward assist is of the older design (tear drop shape), it hasn't snagged on anything on me yet but given the opportunity it's just a matter of time, I thought about changing it to the newer round forward assist but haven't got around to it, and I don't know how to do it
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 3:05:00 PM EDT
I thought your M4 upper had a 14.5" barrel with a phantom suppressor, silver soldered maybe? I didn't notice the short pipe on the Z-M upper. You're right though, the new Z-M stuff is 16" out of the box. By the way, Yankee Hill Machine www.yankeehillmachine.com/products.html claims to manufacture the LR300 for Z-M Weapons. Mr. Zitta told me Z-M manufactures their own parts (maybe they do using Yankee Hill!). Seems YHM also makes the phantom flash suppressor among other things. Ever heard of Yankee Hill Machine?
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 3:52:06 PM EDT
Hows everyone doing?...Duff, Hows it going! Good to see so much interest in the ZM. I'm definately interested in seeing what the RAS would look like for the LR.

Duff...you knew I would find this thread eventually! ;)





Hope this gets more people interested

RLTW!
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 5:06:10 PM EDT
hehe, Bear is the one that tipped me off on the ZM for sale, as it happened the seller was only an hour from me. Where have you been? You've missed a few ZM topics
The M4gery does have a Phantom suppressor. I did some night shooting with a standard 20" barrel with an A2 bird cage FH and the M4gery with its Phantom, got to say the Phantom is better.
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 5:07:51 PM EDT
Damn Bear, you and Duffy got all the cool toys! How do you like that folding, sliding stock? I forgot to ask Duffy this one too; what color is the Z-M upper? It looks almost green in the photos. I suspect you paid extra for that gold selector....
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 5:10:38 PM EDT
Duffy you're quick, or maybe I just type slow. Thanks for the details!
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 6:03:37 PM EDT
hehe, Bear has got his ZM all pimped out
The ZM's handguard is grey, the metal is black, goes with the Oly lower perfectly, but I suspect most lowers are dark grey..
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 7:16:49 PM EDT
Austin,

Duffy's the one with the cool toys! I just have a couple. The old Duffster got Elcans, ACOGs, Accuracy International chassis, H&Ks...a new condo...and probably a lot more stuff

Yeah, my ZM is pimped out in the photo. I don't think I have ever used the bipod except for zeroing the Aimpoint. My forend is actually green though.

Hey Duff, youve got to get the cheekpad from DSA and put it on your skeleton stock, it works great on mine...it will keep you from getting that contact frostbite down there in CA! (just kidding around with you bro )

I'm real curious about this new RAS for the ZM. I hope its a quality piece of equipment and not a cheap modification to the existing RAS for the M4. I have seriously considered buying the full rail that ZM already has available which mounts on top, but its kinda pricy if I remember correctly.

I have this buddy I work with who is dying to get his own ZM so I know he will definately be interested in going in on a group purchase. He frequents this board a lot from work so I know he will be reading this.

RLTW!
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 8:34:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2002 8:51:48 PM EDT by Duffy]
Bear, the condo is old news, I'm about to refinance it to get better interest rates I sold all of my HK stuff back in the 80's, the only HK I got now is a USP
I remember you telling me about the DSA pad back in Feb of 2001, hehe, but it just reminds me of the palm rest for my mouse (gel filled). In my amatuer opinion, since it's your professional but just my hobby, the RAS setup on the ZM may not be all that useful unless you wanna mount infrared laser, flash light, Aimpoint or ACOG with a gen 3 night vision right behind.
My next project is probably going to be a BAR, unless they come out with some new stuff for the AR. I put in the order for the new Colt telestock for the M4 tht RRA and Bushy made copies of, I can finally get rid of the purple receiver extension tube on my RRA telestock
The latest toy is what you see on the left table, I used to have close ups but it was in its environment, cold, rain and sand
Link Posted: 1/3/2002 10:01:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2002 10:07:18 PM EDT by Bear_Hunter]
Duff...you got yoursef an Ammo Can?



...Just kidding, Nice PVS-4 you got there buddy! How much did that run you?

Your absolutely right about the ZM RAS...

I was mainly interested in how it would look .
As far as function...I never let my men mount their PVS-14's directly on their weapons systems. Reason being...you cant conduct battle drills effectively with NVD's mounted on your weapon...not to mention haveing zero security at night during movement (unless you scanned your sector in the high carry all night...which is not practical).

The existing tri-mount for the ZM would accomodate a PAQ-4C and TAC Light, which is pretty much all you would need...so your opinion is right on the money.

As far as my next toy...you've given me the bug to get one of those Accuracy International chasis systems. I'd like to build one up chambered for the 300WSM. Another toy thats been on my list for a while is the DSA SA58. I figure the DSA will be the cheaper of the two since I would have to buy a Complete Remington Short Action rifle, then get it re-barrelled and outfit it with a quality scope before the AWMPgery would be complete

...I never thought of the mousepad analogy ...it does kinda look like it huh?. Believe it or not I actually purchased it to prevent contact frostbite when I was shooting at 40 below zero.

RLTW!
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 3:49:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2002 4:12:52 PM EDT by Duffy]
Actually it's the roll of tape I was referring to..
I got it at a good price, I think most vendors are selling them for around $1800, I paid $1100, came with AA adapter, carrying handle mount
The PVS4 is heavy, personally I can only see it used for a defensive position with the weapon resting on a sand bag, maybe I'm just feeble, I can't hold the rifle with the scope on top for very long.
Bear I don't think AI makes AICS for 300WSM, the only one I know of is for .308 short action. Here's a pic, you know how I like to tease you
The 10 round mag makes a world of difference on its looks. Believe it or not, the mags for the AICS are all singel stack and loaded like pistol mags, kind of strange.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:52:26 PM EDT
Thanks for the pic Duff...I feel great now....now that I dont have one!

We never use the PVS-4's anymore now that we have enough PVS-14's/7's in conjuction with the PAQ-4's for pretty much everyone.

Do you have the M16 reticle?
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:08:37 PM EDT
Bear, the reticle says M16-M203-M79, it has a range finer that confuses the heck out of me
I really wanted a gen3 NV scope that I can mount ahead of the ACOG TA01NSN, but I wasn't about to dump $3500 on it, oh well maybe later if I get rich..
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