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Posted: 4/23/2014 2:51:06 AM EDT
I've been wanting to personally compare the AUG and Tavor before buying.

Found several Tavors to look at, but no AUG.

Is it because the Tavor is getting more press and is the "cool" one?
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 6:33:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2014 6:40:32 AM EDT by Seven-Shooter]
Some shops have no reason to stock such relatively-expensive nice items (bullpups, high-end PCCs, etc). What happens is that people usually come in to play with the stuff, then go home and order it online and get it transferred instead, leacing the shop to sit on an expensive item for long enough that it "costs" the shop more (if the store finances vs. buys outright from distributors). And in some cases, a lot of distributors don't catalog the various outlets by which an AUG might be sold, whilst most catalog IWI US--which makes the Tavor easier to obtain for a larger number of FFLs.

Basically, consumer empowerment via online vendors means consumers have become victims of their own success. When combined with how Steyr et al have approached distribution networks vs. IWI, that's basically why.

ETA: When the AUG gets so quickly associated with the various levels of MSAR failure, a cursory google search by many small dealers may shy them away from stocking an AUG. Ain't saying it's right, but many shop people can't be bothered to actually.....y'know, research. Also, small dealers don't get the same price break as larger dealers, which makes any bullpup ordered sit on their wall for (generally) more than the large dealers who sell online, further exacerbating the first problem in the first paragraph.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 8:44:34 AM EDT
I have seen a few around here.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 8:47:44 AM EDT
There's also the "demand" factor. If 15 people come in and ask about the new Tavor rifle, versus 1 guy asking about the AUG, then as a dealer, I would feel more comfortable stocking a Tavor.

Also agree with Seven's ETA about people confusing the MSAR with the Steyr. Also, lack of consumer knowledge plays a part, "How come your AUG is $1900? I can get them on gunbroker for $1300 all day"
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 8:48:40 AM EDT
Would probably help to know what state you were in. I know a few local places that have both
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 7:41:32 PM EDT
Sorry you can't find any locally. I've been able to find some they just never have the NATO stock.... And ask way too much. I don't need a rifle that has proprietary mags when I'm sitting on a crap load of stanags.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 7:45:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nsl:
I've been wanting to personally compare the AUG and Tavor before buying.

Found several Tavors to look at, but no AUG.

Is it because the Tavor is getting more press and is the "cool" one?
View Quote
I have both.
What are you looking to compare.
What would swing you to one or the other?

Link Posted: 4/24/2014 2:38:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 5:01:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 5:29:45 AM EDT
The vast majority of gun shops will only order a Aug or a Tavor from a distributor if they already have a order from a customer. I work for a distributor that carries both brands, and the Tavor is outselling the AUG by about 25 to 1.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 6:59:03 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Chuck:
No AUGs locally? Because there is no demand -- no one buys them. Sounds like sarcasm but it's true. You're unlikely to fine high end M1911s (say, $3000 Ed Browns) locally either and for the same reason.

-- Chuck
View Quote

One of the local joints that has both in stock is also a Wilson master dealer with a good inventory, a few Ed Browns, Dan Wessons, etc.


Guess I'm just spoiled with my LGS's
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 7:51:37 AM EDT
Dealers can only afford to sit on so much inventory, and the Aug is really expensive compared with most ARs. Demand for them isn't strong, I've seen them sit at a local, reasonably high end gun show (Dulles, VA, near two really well off counties.)
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 8:13:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2014 2:16:49 PM EDT by motoguzzi]
Just get the Tavor.
I have a Austrian made AUG and just picked up a Tavor, the Tavor is a much more flexible design because it is a much newer design, by 30 years.
Trigger pack has options available that the AUG does not, mags more widely available (unless you get the NATO AUG) and can be shot off handed in a pinch.
In my book, unless it is an Austrian made rifle it is an AUG look alike, not an AUG.

ETA - Forgot to say, get into your AUG with your off hand a bit too high on the grip, that's an ouch for sure.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 8:46:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By jagdkommando:
The vast majority of gun shops will only order a Aug or a Tavor from a distributor if they already have a order from a customer. I work for a distributor that carries both brands, and the Tavor is outselling the AUG by about 25 to 1.
View Quote


Local shop here has a similar issue. The owner is an AUG fan like me, but he doesn't stock them anymore because he has a hard time selling them (and their prices are more than fair).
Tavor's he can't get enough of, they're flying of the shelf. He sells more Tavors in a fiscal quarter than he has ever sold in all other bullpups combined.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 9:02:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By motoguzzi:
Just get the Tavor.
I have a Austrian made AUG and just picked up a Tavor, the Tavor is a much more flexible design because it is a much newer design, by 30 years.
Trigger pack has options available that the AUG does not, mags more widely available (unless you get the NATO AUG) and can be shot off handed in a pinch.
In my book, unless it is an Austrian made rifle it is an AUG look alike, not an AUG.
View Quote


You say the Tavor is more flexible and has more options that the AUG does not?

lots of opinionated misinformation in your response.

How does a design gain "flexibility" over another design (independent of age)? I'm trying to understand how the Tavor is a "much more flexible design because it is a much newer design". How does being newer equate to being "much more flexible"?

The AUG hammerpack currently has 4 more aftermarket hammerpack options than is offered for the Tavor.

AUG mags are widely available. Do you not use the internet to purchase items? Austrian AUG mags online are $16. There is also that magpul pmag for the Steyr AUG...

Shot off hand? You can shoot off hand with both guns, inferring that it is not possible to do so with the AUG is disingenuous, we both know it can be done "in a pinch".

Saying that the AUG is only an AUG if solely made in Austria is as dumb as saying that an AR15 is only an AR15 if only made by Armalite in Hollywood California, everything else (Colt included) is just a "look alike".
The Steyr AUG A3 is an AUG manufactured by the US by Steyr Arms, a wholly owned subsidiary of Steyr Mannlicher in Austria. There are only five US made parts in the AUG A3. How many US made parts are in your Tavor "look alike"?

Lastly, the AUG design is immensely more flexible and has vastly more possible configuration combinations possible. How many permutations are possible with the 6 different AUG receivers, 11 different stocks, 6 barrel lengths, and a 9mm caliber conversion kit???

Compare that to the Tavor's "flexibility and options" of 2 "receiver styles" (flattop and IDF), 2 barrel lengths, 4 stocks, and a 9mm conversion kit.



Sure the Tavor is a good gun, but to "Just get the Tavor" for the reasons you listed is a bit silly.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 9:06:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By nsl:
I've been wanting to personally compare the AUG and Tavor before buying.

Found several Tavors to look at, but no AUG.

Is it because the Tavor is getting more press and is the "cool" one?
View Quote



Absolutely.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 9:38:45 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Chuck:
No AUGs locally? Because there is no demand -- no one buys them. Sounds like sarcasm but it's true. You're unlikely to fine high end M1911s (say, $3000 Ed Browns) locally either and for the same reason.

-- Chuck
View Quote

Also, Steyr has done a terrible job of marketing and tailoring to the American market. IWI hit the ground running in America by putting money into advertisement (especially YouTube reviewers) and sticking to the STANAG concept to lure AR-15 owners over. Steyr on the other hand continues to push their proprietary mags and introduce little updates (bits of rail, expensive scopes) that IMO are not worth the extra cost.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 3:16:07 PM EDT
A dealer near me has an AUG in their rental pool. I have never seen a new AUG for sale there. A lot of Tavor models for sale though. They are probably are in the same 25-1 sale ratio vs the AUG. Shop is close to where Mike K. is assembling the Tavors so the Tavors are plentiful.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 8:34:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 7:54:01 AM EDT by CopM4]
20,000 Tavors sold in just under a year is beyond the "coolness" factor.
Especially considering the bull-pup market historically has been a niche market to begin with in the US.
Numbers to an extent simply don't lie.

IWI-US went through hoops to get the rifle into the country...in an uncertain market (both politically and otherwise
They took their product out and saturated the firearms social media with it and gave it maximum exposure.
They had a paln...and it worked.

Steyr?.They could have jumped into and increased the frenzy with a "Lets promote the bullpups" media exposure
in printed & internet media and Youtube reviewers. .......but they were asleep behind the wheel.

FN's Fs2000 simply fizzled away and never got a toe-hold.....alot of that was FN's fault. neat rifle though.









.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 2:19:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:49:36 AM EDT
The reason the Tavor is selling better is because it presents a better value proposition. And, before people jump on me, I've got an AUG A3 NATO and a Tavor. I like 'em both. But Steyr's offering is simply not as compelling for the US civilian market.

Selling points for the Tavor:
1. Built-in BUIS w/ tritium front post. You can shoot it out of the box!
2. AR-like selector, which is a big plus in the American market.
3. IDF-usage coolness factor.
4. Uses the piles of AR mags I already own (the ability to do this with an AUG A3 costs me a couple hundred bucks)
5. Cheaper conversion kit that uses common Colt 9mm mags (albeit I don't think this is a huge deal, it is a nice advertising point)

The AUG's strong points, which I tend to think of as component modularity, ease of switching to LH, and QD barrel, don't really matter to US consumers, just unit armorers. How many AUG owners have more than one barrel? How many are swapping trigger packs and stocks on anything resembling a regular basis? Answer: very, very few. (And the Tavor provides much of the same modularity, albeit with more complexity.)

I'm not saying Steyr needs to radically redesign the AUG - it is what it is at this point - but they need to start thinking about what the US civilian market wants, and provide it at a competitive price point. I have not seen a lot of evidence that they're doing much of that, and until they do, their sales will look nothing like IWI's.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 12:22:44 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By erwos:
The reason the Tavor is selling better is because it presents a better value proposition. And, before people jump on me, I've got an AUG A3 NATO and a Tavor. I like 'em both. But Steyr's offering is simply not as compelling for the US civilian market.

Selling points for the Tavor:
1. Built-in BUIS w/ tritium front post. You can shoot it out of the box!
2. AR-like selector, which is a big plus in the American market.
3. IDF-usage coolness factor.
4. Uses the piles of AR mags I already own (the ability to do this with an AUG A3 costs me a couple hundred bucks)
5. Cheaper conversion kit that uses common Colt 9mm mags (albeit I don't think this is a huge deal, it is a nice advertising point)

The AUG's strong points, which I tend to think of as component modularity, ease of switching to LH, and QD barrel, don't really matter to US consumers, just unit armorers. How many AUG owners have more than one barrel? How many are swapping trigger packs and stocks on anything resembling a regular basis? Answer: very, very few. (And the Tavor provides much of the same modularity, albeit with more complexity.)

I'm not saying Steyr needs to radically redesign the AUG - it is what it is at this point - but they need to start thinking about what the US civilian market wants, and provide it at a competitive price point. I have not seen a lot of evidence that they're doing much of that, and until they do, their sales will look nothing like IWI's.
View Quote


I think the tavor was hyped up more as well. The whole online gun community was buzzing about its introduction into the civilian market. You really did not see the same hype for the aug a3. Which makes sense, the tavor is brand new design never sold in the US. The aug has been here already in one form or another.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 1:54:08 PM EDT
I have never seen an AUG in any of my local gun stores. Indeed, you rarely see anything but the usual ARs and Century type AKs. Nothing exotic or no quality AKs, etc. I rarely go to them anymore.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 2:05:40 PM EDT
I was just at one of the LGS here in Lexington, KY and they had both a Tavor and an AUG on the wall.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 3:11:34 PM EDT
The IDF "cool factor" is a definite selling point.
What rifle would Joe six pack want? The one those bad ass Israelis use to kick butt all the time, or the one used by a country out kicking, well, nobody's butt?
The Austrian butt kickage is right up there with the Belgian butt kickage. If it's out there, its certainly not in the news every day.
You can't buy that kind of marketing....

Mick
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 5:00:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By erwos:
The reason the Tavor is selling better is because it presents a better value proposition. And, before people jump on me, I've got an AUG A3 NATO and a Tavor. I like 'em both. But Steyr's offering is simply not as compelling for the US civilian market.

Selling points for the Tavor:
1. Built-in BUIS w/ tritium front post. You can shoot it out of the box!
2. AR-like selector, which is a big plus in the American market.
3. IDF-usage coolness factor.
4. Uses the piles of AR mags I already own (the ability to do this with an AUG A3 costs me a couple hundred bucks)
5. Cheaper conversion kit that uses common Colt 9mm mags (albeit I don't think this is a huge deal, it is a nice advertising point)

The AUG's strong points, which I tend to think of as component modularity, ease of switching to LH, and QD barrel, don't really matter to US consumers, just unit armorers. How many AUG owners have more than one barrel? How many are swapping trigger packs and stocks on anything resembling a regular basis? Answer: very, very few. (And the Tavor provides much of the same modularity, albeit with more complexity.)

I'm not saying Steyr needs to radically redesign the AUG - it is what it is at this point - but they need to start thinking about what the US civilian market wants, and provide it at a competitive price point. I have not seen a lot of evidence that they're doing much of that, and until they do, their sales will look nothing like IWI's.
View Quote


....Well Said
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 5:38:23 PM EDT
could have something to do with the AUG being available here for the last 30-ish years while the Tavor is new and sparkly
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:05:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mcantu:
could have something to do with the AUG being available here for the last 30-ish years while the Tavor is new and sparkly
View Quote





(...then what happened here)
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:09:55 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CopM4:



https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608047432274217874&pid=15.1

(...then what happened here)
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Originally Posted By CopM4:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
could have something to do with the AUG being available here for the last 30-ish years while the Tavor is new and sparkly



https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608047432274217874&pid=15.1

(...then what happened here)


It floundered...
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:13:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 6:16:02 PM EDT by CopM4]
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Originally Posted By maleante:


It floundered...
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Originally Posted By maleante:
Originally Posted By CopM4:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
could have something to do with the AUG being available here for the last 30-ish years while the Tavor is new and sparkly



https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608047432274217874&pid=15.1

(...then what happened here)


It floundered...


LOL !!

Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:55:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By maleante:


It floundered...
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Originally Posted By maleante:
Originally Posted By CopM4:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
could have something to do with the AUG being available here for the last 30-ish years while the Tavor is new and sparkly



https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608047432274217874&pid=15.1

(...then what happened here)


It floundered...


It sure did.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 6:19:28 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CopM4:



https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608047432274217874&pid=15.1

(...then what happened here)
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By CopM4:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
could have something to do with the AUG being available here for the last 30-ish years while the Tavor is new and sparkly



https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608047432274217874&pid=15.1

(...then what happened here)


I have seen one of those in my local gun store. It sat there FOREVER.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 6:28:43 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CopM4:



https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608047432274217874&pid=15.1

(...then what happened here)
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CopM4:
Originally Posted By mcantu:
could have something to do with the AUG being available here for the last 30-ish years while the Tavor is new and sparkly



https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608047432274217874&pid=15.1

(...then what happened here)
Expensive, wonky trigger, mags didn't drop free without modification, and it couldn't use PMAGS without modification (iirc). Unusual method of showing clear, and when you do there's a frightening amount of synthetic parts to most people. While I thought it was comfy without the rail. Consumers love rails, which then made it awkward out front and hard to find a well-mounted optic option for sighting. And I could be wrong, but I do not remember a last shot BHO.

Put them all together, and it dies. I still like them, but not at the prices they're going for now.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 8:35:35 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By erwos:
The reason the Tavor is selling better is because it presents a better value proposition. And, before people jump on me, I've got an AUG A3 NATO and a Tavor. I like 'em both. But Steyr's offering is simply not as compelling for the US civilian market.

Selling points for the Tavor:
1. Built-in BUIS w/ tritium front post. You can shoot it out of the box!
2. AR-like selector, which is a big plus in the American market.
3. IDF-usage coolness factor.
4. Uses the piles of AR mags I already own (the ability to do this with an AUG A3 costs me a couple hundred bucks)
5. Cheaper conversion kit that uses common Colt 9mm mags (albeit I don't think this is a huge deal, it is a nice advertising point)

The AUG's strong points, which I tend to think of as component modularity, ease of switching to LH, and QD barrel, don't really matter to US consumers, just unit armorers. How many AUG owners have more than one barrel? How many are swapping trigger packs and stocks on anything resembling a regular basis? Answer: very, very few. (And the Tavor provides much of the same modularity, albeit with more complexity.)

I'm not saying Steyr needs to radically redesign the AUG - it is what it is at this point - but they need to start thinking about what the US civilian market wants, and provide it at a competitive price point. I have not seen a lot of evidence that they're doing much of that, and until they do, their sales will look nothing like IWI's.
View Quote



also, I dont know why it is so hard to thread the barrel to our common thread pattern.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 3:04:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 3:14:36 AM EDT by erwos]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Stlkid:
I think the tavor was hyped up more as well. The whole online gun community was buzzing about its introduction into the civilian market. You really did not see the same hype for the aug a3. Which makes sense, the tavor is brand new design never sold in the US. The aug has been here already in one form or another.
View Quote

Oh, I agree that some of its current popularity is hype and new-ness. 20k a year is not going to be maintained without further product development. But, let's be real about a couple things:
1. Unlike what some AUG diehards would tell you, it's not entirely responsible for the Tavor's huge sales advantage. To hear some people tell it, the Tavor sales are 100% hype. That's not what's going on here.
2. It earned the hype. It had no real QC issues coming out the door, it does what it advertises, and reviews across the board have been very positive. Hell, about the only bad thing you can say about it is that they kinda jumped the gun on the 5.45x39 kits.

Also, let's talk about the FS2000 comparison for a moment. The FS2000 probably would sell far better if FNH would rework it for the US civilian market... it has a bunch of issues for US civilian users, all of which are widely known:
1. Incompatible with pmags
2. Mags don't drop free
3. No LRBHO
4. No way to mount a light from factory
5. Factory rail is at a somewhat weird height (IMHO)

The Tavor and AUG don't have these issues, and, surprise, they sold a lot better than the FS2000. When your gun has real market-level problems, you don't get to bitch that it's not selling well. Of course it's selling horribly, gun buyers don't buy guns with lots of known problems, especially in the rather niche bullpup format.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 6:10:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By TheBigStink:



also, I dont know why it is so hard to thread the barrel to our common thread pattern.
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Originally Posted By TheBigStink:
Originally Posted By erwos:
The reason the Tavor is selling better is because it presents a better value proposition. And, before people jump on me, I've got an AUG A3 NATO and a Tavor. I like 'em both. But Steyr's offering is simply not as compelling for the US civilian market.

Selling points for the Tavor:
1. Built-in BUIS w/ tritium front post. You can shoot it out of the box!
2. AR-like selector, which is a big plus in the American market.
3. IDF-usage coolness factor.
4. Uses the piles of AR mags I already own (the ability to do this with an AUG A3 costs me a couple hundred bucks)
5. Cheaper conversion kit that uses common Colt 9mm mags (albeit I don't think this is a huge deal, it is a nice advertising point)

The AUG's strong points, which I tend to think of as component modularity, ease of switching to LH, and QD barrel, don't really matter to US consumers, just unit armorers. How many AUG owners have more than one barrel? How many are swapping trigger packs and stocks on anything resembling a regular basis? Answer: very, very few. (And the Tavor provides much of the same modularity, albeit with more complexity.)

I'm not saying Steyr needs to radically redesign the AUG - it is what it is at this point - but they need to start thinking about what the US civilian market wants, and provide it at a competitive price point. I have not seen a lot of evidence that they're doing much of that, and until they do, their sales will look nothing like IWI's.



also, I dont know why it is so hard to thread the barrel to our common thread pattern.


I asked them yesterday.
They have been asking for 1/2-28 threads since the new US product started.
Steyr's answer has so far been: You can have the barrels threaded only our way, or threaded our way only; take your pick.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 7:55:56 AM EDT
My favored fun store has both AUGs and Tavors in stock. I own an AUG, looked at the Tavor, and was not in any way swayed to buy one.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 10:37:57 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By erwos:
The reason the Tavor is selling better is because it presents a better value proposition. And, before people jump on me, I've got an AUG A3 NATO and a Tavor. I like 'em both. But Steyr's offering is simply not as compelling for the US civilian market.

Selling points for the Tavor:
1. Built-in BUIS w/ tritium front post. You can shoot it out of the box!
2. AR-like selector, which is a big plus in the American market.
3. IDF-usage coolness factor.
4. Uses the piles of AR mags I already own (the ability to do this with an AUG A3 costs me a couple hundred bucks)
5. Cheaper conversion kit that uses common Colt 9mm mags (albeit I don't think this is a huge deal, it is a nice advertising point)

The AUG's strong points, which I tend to think of as component modularity, ease of switching to LH, and QD barrel, don't really matter to US consumers, just unit armorers. How many AUG owners have more than one barrel? How many are swapping trigger packs and stocks on anything resembling a regular basis? Answer: very, very few. (And the Tavor provides much of the same modularity, albeit with more complexity.)

I'm not saying Steyr needs to radically redesign the AUG - it is what it is at this point - but they need to start thinking about what the US civilian market wants, and provide it at a competitive price point. I have not seen a lot of evidence that they're doing much of that, and until they do, their sales will look nothing like IWI's.
View Quote


I agree.



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