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Posted: 8/28/2004 8:17:31 PM EST
I was just wondering why more people make their "tactical" shotgun out of an 870 or 590, when you can get less recoil and faster follow up shots with an 11-87.

Just looking to find out why,

Jerad
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:19:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:23:30 PM EST
They make your calves look so much more shapely.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:37:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:48:43 PM EST
What DigDug and Treetop said. At 3-gun matches the guys that have problems are the semi-auto boys.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:53:16 PM EST
Cause they think a combat shotgun is supposed to be a pump. I prefer Benelli.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 9:02:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Cause they think a combat shotgun is supposed to be a pump.



The name of the game in "combat" is reliablity. Autos, while great for shooting orange frisbies and little birdies, aren't inherently reliable with a broad range of ammo. One of the biggest strengths of the shotgun is the huge range of different ammo types available for various purposes. A pump will devour whatever you throw at it, AND it's easier to change from one type to another.

I used to have a Benelli M3 because my thinking was "if I have a problem I'll just switch it to pump". Then it dawned on me, why not just have a damn pump to begin with?
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 9:24:35 PM EST
Norman, I see where you are coming from, but in a combat shotgun I personally only have a use for birdshot for practice, high brass buck, and the occasional slug. A good autoloader should have no problems with any of these. I do not use bean bags or Hatton rounds.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 9:28:20 PM EST

They make your calves look so much more shapely.


lol
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 9:34:58 PM EST
I think price and tradition are the biggest factors that make pumps so popular. Pumps are also typically of simpler construction and thus inherently more robust than many autoloaders.

There is, however, a strong argument that the auto is the better fighting shotgun action (provided it is vetted for reliability, of course). Contrary to an earlier poster, my 3-gun experience has been that a lot of pump guys have problems due to short stroking under stress... remember, stress is exactly what you get in a gunfight.

Solid and reliable autos like the 1187 or Benelli are out there in "fighting trim", and in my view are the better choice for all but the most expert of pumpgunners.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 9:47:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jerad:
I was just wondering why more people make their "tactical" shotgun out of an 870 or 590, when you can get less recoil and faster follow up shots with an 11-87.

Just looking to find out why,

Jerad



Because many refuse to embrace technology . The old " If It Aint Broke Don't Fix It " mentality is fine , as long as it doesn’t blind you to things that really are better
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 8:36:30 AM EST
I went with an autoloader because 1) Short stroking 2)forgetting to pump. I have done both at the range under the best of conditions. I would hate to forget or ss under a stressful condition. Yes training will help, however all my other long guns I train with are semiautos so I prefer to keep the SG a semi too.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 8:48:55 AM EST
When my life depends on it, I wantt the gun to work 100% every time. You can't get that kind of reliability with a semi. Don't get me wrong, semis are cool; I own a Benelli M1. But the reliability of a pump is undeniable.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 8:50:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:06:06 AM EST
As by others: The pump is not dependent on the shell load to function.

And, it you have a malf - say the empty gets hung up, it's a lot easier to try and clear it with a pump than trying to hold the auto bolt back, or worrying about the auto bolt slamming into your finger.

Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:35:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By TREETOP:
Reliability, and the ability to use exotic ammunition that often won't cycle a semiauto.



Yep.

I have seen more quality semi-automatic shotguns malfunction than auto pistols and rifles combined.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 11:25:07 AM EST
Semi-auto shotguns are far less reliable than auto pistols or rifles, and this is a direct result of the ammo used.

Shot shells haven't changed in any real way since they were invented back in the mid-1800's.
Instead of brass bases, waxed paper cases, and felt wads, we now have brass-plated steel bases, plastic cases, and plastic shot cups.
Other than that, the actual design and dimensions haven't changed at all.

Metallic cartridges are HARD, unless they're defective from the get-go, or get damaged, they're good.
Shot-shells are SOFT. This can and does cause feed problems in even the best, most modern design.

People brag about their new design auto shotgun's quality, but they're still shooting what amounts to 1870 era ammunition.

Until a basic upgrade and change of the shot shell takes place, reliability will continue to lag, and we'll have no really ground breaking shotgun with an effective box magazine.

One fan of the shotgun was Chief James "Patches" Watson, founding member of the Navy SEAL's, and multiple Vietnam tour vet.

Watson is likely the most experienced combat user of the shotgun, having the world's first Ithaca extended magazine, duck-bill equipped shotgun ever made.
It was custom built for him by the Navy Weapons Lab at China Lake.

Watson said in his book "Pointman" that even if the gun was so fouled by mud that you couldn't force it to operate, he could "swish it around in the nearest stream" to flush off the mud, restoring it to function.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 11:31:12 AM EST

they make your calves look so much more shapely.


That was really funny1111
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 11:35:29 AM EST
I chose the pump over the auto because the pump was $230 and the auto was $600.(remington)
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 11:36:10 AM EST
because it just sounds so darn cool when you rack that sucker
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 4:21:36 PM EST
Reliability...


- georgestrings
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 5:08:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By jaqattack02:
because it just sounds so darn cool when you rack that sucker



LOL! Is there a sweeter sound? I think not. A universally recognized sound for "OH SH^%! He ain't kidding!!"

Link Posted: 8/29/2004 7:55:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:33:01 AM EST
I'd say the pump has cost, reliability, and quicker ammo changes under stress. There are several proven pumps out there, and AFAIK, no junk among the big boys.

For an auto, operation is simpler, one handed operation is realistically possable, and it is much easier to shoot prone, however, malfunctions are harder to clear (good design will eliminate most of them, but you can still get a bad shell). I'd only trust benelli, as it has passed the torture tests of LEO contracts, patrol and callout, as well as winning praise from duck and dove hunters using the shotguns in adverse conditions.

Country Boy
owner of one Benelli SBE, a SP10, A5 sweet sixteen, 3 870s (one from scattergun technologies), two over and unders and a pawnshop special side by side with 18"bbl.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:34:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
My guesses.

Cheaper.

Less to go wrong.

Less picky about ammo.




yup
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 5:53:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 12:59:07 PM EST by Freakzilla]
Pump,

Because while shotgun actions (reliable semi-auto) have evolved into the 21st century, sadly their magazines have not.

With only seven shells at my disposal, I need to be reminded to make them count (ie pump). If shotguns were traditionally magazine fed I might opt for the semi, but they aren't. So why pretend like you have a "belt fed" shotgun by choosing semi, when you are so limited in both available shells AND that is compounded with a SLOW reload!

Where is the big push to make a "semi-auto" or "combat" version of a tubular magazine fed lever-action .30-30? doesn't make sense to me.

my .02
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:09:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By faris:
Semi-auto shotguns are far less reliable than auto pistols or rifles, and this is a direct result of the ammo used.

Shot shells haven't changed in any real way since they were invented back in the mid-1800's.
Instead of brass bases, waxed paper cases, and felt wads, we now have brass-plated steel bases, plastic cases, and plastic shot cups.
Other than that, the actual design and dimensions haven't changed at all.

Metallic cartridges are HARD, unless they're defective from the get-go, or get damaged, they're good.
Shot-shells are SOFT. This can and does cause feed problems in even the best, most modern design.

People brag about their new design auto shotgun's quality, but they're still shooting what amounts to 1870 era ammunition.

Until a basic upgrade and change of the shot shell takes place, reliability will continue to lag, and we'll have no really ground breaking shotgun with an effective box magazine.

One fan of the shotgun was Chief James "Patches" Watson, founding member of the Navy SEAL's, and multiple Vietnam tour vet.

Watson is likely the most experienced combat user of the shotgun, having the world's first Ithaca extended magazine, duck-bill equipped shotgun ever made.
It was custom built for him by the Navy Weapons Lab at China Lake.

Watson said in his book "Pointman" that even if the gun was so fouled by mud that you couldn't force it to operate, he could "swish it around in the nearest stream" to flush off the mud, restoring it to function.



Wolf/Barnaul sells steel case shotshels, and the Russians do make a nice mag-fed semi shotgun...
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:34:08 AM EST
Don't forget weight. 870 weighs 1 to 1.5 lbs more than the lighter 11-87s. 870s are cheap, reliable, and have more aftermarket tricks and spare parts available than you can shake a stick at. You can probably find 870 parts anywhere you want to travel and if you couldn't actually find one, manufacturing one to spec on the pump is a lot less tricky than the autoloader.

Of course, the 870 weighs a little more than the Benelli M1 Tactical or the M3 auto/pump, both of which can spit out just about any type of ammo reliably almost as fast as an AR, and the M3 can handle special loads like tear gas, rubber bullets, etc.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:19:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:06:19 AM EST
For me it was cheaper when I started shooting and I kinda just stuck with a pump.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:44:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:55:00 PM EST
I orignally came to this side of the board to ask about combat shotguns. I made a purchase of a home defense rem 870 due to the insite of the people here. After 2 years and a little more play and experance with shotguns in general I decided my next purchase of a tactical shotgun will be an auto. How ever I learned a lot from that first pump that I possibly never would have learned if I just got a more expensive weapon. Just like shoes one does not fit all. I believe it depends on the training and the personality of the operator.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 11:26:28 AM EST
for i dont know how many years ive sworn by the Pump-Action Shotguns, mine is an old Mossberg 500. That thing has been draged from hell and back, and i have never had it jame, mis-feed, fail to fire (ive had a few dud shells, but thats not the guns fault) or anything that would inpeade the gun. so thats reason one, reason, two, is that a pump gn is cheeper, three, after some pratice, a Pump ac be fired about as fast as an automatic (if its a Winchester Model 12, jsut hold down that trigger and shuck the action....watch that thing spit lead!) i know that an auto is faster, but for all practical useage, a pump action will do everything an Auto can do. and lastly, there is 3 sounds in this world that truly strike fear in to the heart, and that is (at least in my humble opnion) the sound of a Pump's Action being racked, a lever action rifle being chamberd and the tripple click of a Single Action Army revolver being brought to full cock, there are what i call "oh shitttttt" sound effects. you have to admit, intimadation is a powerful weapon, almost so potent as the magizine full of 000 buckshot that the gun holds...its a great confidance builder in the face of adversity too!
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 12:14:35 PM EST
For me? Reliability, period. If there was a semi-auto that I was convinced was just as reliable as my pumps for life-and-death matters, that's what I'd use. I'm not convinced there is at this time, so it's pump SGs for me in defensive roles. (I do hunt with semi-autos, FWIW.)
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:26:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By lu380:
I chose the pump over the auto because the pump was $230 and the auto was $600.(remington)



+1

Plus I like that cool "shicka-shicka" sound it makes when you work the action!
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 1:33:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sharkman:
When my life depends on it, I wantt the gun to work 100% every time. You can't get that kind of reliability with a semi. Don't get me wrong, semis are cool; I own a Benelli M1. But the reliability of a pump is undeniable.



Just as handgun options (for 100% reliability-to go off) you have a revolver- bigger the better
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:32:06 PM EST
Get both?

I have a 1187 right now, I picked it up for 400 and an extra barrel for it. But when I get some cash I'm going to get an 870 and turn the 1187 into my bird gun.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:34:36 PM EST
AWB doesn't limit pumps in any way
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:20:51 PM EST
I have an 870.
And I have only had it jam twice. Once due to the !@#$ case rim breaking off, and the other was due to sustained rapid fire (250 rds in a 1 hr period) to the point where it heated up so much I couldnt open the damn action. It has been on the bottom of a swamp for a week,(I wandered in there at 3 am on opening day, and almost drowned, had to drop it to swim.) buried in a desert, dropped from treestands, and otherwise abused and it has never failed me. The only thing I have done to it is a synthetic stock cause the origional warped badly. It will fire anything I feed it reliably and consistantly. Aftermarket/spare parts are cheaper and available everywhere.

I have shot several semis, and they just dont have the same reliability. Even if I had the money to buy a semi, there is no way in hell I would ever replace my 870. Well, maybe if it was for a USAS-12, but that aint really a normal shotty anymore.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:35:35 PM EST
Guys, are you sure my mossy 500 doesn't make my but look big? he he he ha ha ha . This has been very informative!! Thank you.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:36:31 PM EST
sorry "butt" two t's
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