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Posted: 9/18/2004 11:29:48 AM EST
I'm holding off on a Bushmaster or Colt in hopes to get an HK! I've heard rumors of shipping the uppers in Nov...true? What about the lowers? Any word on price? Any info at all? Links?

Help me out here guys! I've got the itch!
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:22:36 PM EST
No word and I wouldn't hold your breath.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 1:17:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 9:16:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 9:18:13 PM EST by Raptor22]
Oops! Wrong thread.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 9:43:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/23/2004 9:45:48 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
I'm holding off on a Bushmaster or Colt in hopes to get an HK! I've heard rumors of shipping the uppers in Nov...true? What about the lowers? Any word on price? Any info at all? Links?

Help me out here guys! I've got the itch!



1) Colt is suing them for producing a copycat product without paying royalties to Colt... Expect an injunction prohibiting production...

2) HK does NOT sell rifles to US Civillians anymore... The SL8 and USC are being discontinued, and that will be 'it'...

So go ahead and get a Bushmaster... The true AR design is far superior to the bastardized HK product anyway....
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 8:38:17 AM EST
I spoke to an HK rep the other day.

The HK M4 copies and uppers will only be for LEO's

I was as bummed as you.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 11:43:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 4:06:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/24/2004 4:06:54 PM EST by Triumph955i]

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
cris,

but it depends on the dealer, it is up to him to sell the upper to whom ever.

I am getting several uppers.

I have seen the latest version, the rail version looks GOOOOOOOD.




i hope you're a dealer that likes helping out the little non leo folk.
Link Posted: 9/24/2004 4:39:57 PM EST

The true AR design is far superior to the bastardized HK product anyway....



Cool, so you've shot one and run it through it's tests?

How was it?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:23:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 8:16:36 AM EST
Does anyone have photo's of the H&K M4 that they can post?
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 10:17:45 AM EST
HKPRO Thread

HKM4



It even looks better than the Colt M4
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 10:04:28 AM EST
Chen,

You are right of course, we will just have to see what the dealers do when they hit the shelves. Look for them sometime in late March/April I was told.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:08:51 AM EST
I would love to have one of these, but like a couple of other guys posted it doesnt sound good for civilians getting their hands on them.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 8:54:42 AM EST
First, I'd like to point out that I'm a great fan of the Armaleite design. But to be totaly honest it lacks reliability big time. I know it might hurt someones pride, that a german company improved an american product, but let's face it. One can claim that the original Armalite M16/AR15 design is superior, but that is just plain stupid to say. The HKM416 (as the H&K M4 is officialy called now) is a derivate of the G36 series of H&K rifles, whoch again are mostly a derivate (...much improved but still) of the AK-47, whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. To call it bastardized products is somewhat hipocritical, for it's true that they want to make money of it, but they are also offering to upgrade current weapons so american fighting men will no longer need to fear rhar their colt made unreliable guns will jam when they least need it. In my opinion, the HKM416 is all I've evr wanted in a gun. The great, design of Eugene Stoner combined with the reliability of the AK by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov. I'm not gonna claim these are facts that are undesputed but I will say this, not all that is american is good just because it is american, many things are, but many are not. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I really belive H&K at this time, makes the bes military weapons available (...in general speaking)
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:27:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By GorkoSan:
First, I'd like to point out that I'm a great fan of the Armaleite design. But to be totaly honest it lacks reliability big time. I know it might hurt someones pride, that a german company improved an american product, but let's face it. One can claim that the original Armalite M16/AR15 design is superior, but that is just plain stupid to say. The HKM416 (as the H&K M4 is officialy called now) is a derivate of the G36 series of H&K rifles, whoch again are mostly a derivate (...much improved but still) of the AK-47, whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. To call it bastardized products is somewhat hipocritical, for it's true that they want to make money of it, but they are also offering to upgrade current weapons so american fighting men will no longer need to fear rhar their colt made unreliable guns will jam when they least need it. In my opinion, the HKM416 is all I've evr wanted in a gun. The great, design of Eugene Stoner combined with the reliability of the AK by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov. I'm not gonna claim these are facts that are undesputed but I will say this, not all that is american is good just because it is american, many things are, but many are not. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I really belive H&K at this time, makes the bes military weapons available (...in general speaking)



Well put my friend, well put. Its nice to finally see a realistic person here on the HK M4 and XM8. We are a rare breed. Welcome to the boards!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:47:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 10:54:25 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By GorkoSan:
First, I'd like to point out that I'm a great fan of the Armaleite design. But to be totaly honest it lacks reliability big time. I know it might hurt someones pride, that a german company improved an american product, but let's face it. One can claim that the original Armalite M16/AR15 design is superior, but that is just plain stupid to say. The HKM416 (as the H&K M4 is officialy called now) is a derivate of the G36 series of H&K rifles, whoch again are mostly a derivate (...much improved but still) of the AK-47 , whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. To call it bastardized products is somewhat hipocritical, for it's true that they want to make money of it, but they are also offering to upgrade current weaponsAny modification that degrades accuracy for no practical gain (since the 'reliability' of both the original and the 'new' design is well above any practical standard of neccessity) is not an 'improvement' so american fighting men will no longer need to fear rhar their colt made unreliable guns will jam when they least need it In my opinion, the HKM416 is all I've evr wanted in a gun. The great, design of Eugene Stoner combined with the reliability of the AK by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov. I'm not gonna claim these are facts that are undesputed but I will say this, not all that is american is good just because it is american, many things are, but many are not. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I really belive H&K at this time, makes the bes military weapons available (...in general speaking) You sir, don't know JACK! Try an INFORMED opinion next time..



1) You're so full of shit I can smell you from here. I've also highlited it in red...

2) The G-36 action has NOTHING to do with the AK47. Nothing AT ALL...

It is a short-stroke floating piston design, and has more in common with the M-14 or Steyr AUG than the AK.

3) HK weapons were originally derived from such famous German products as the MG-42 and StG-44. They have NOTHING AT ALL in common with the AK.

In fact, HK's most famous products, the 91-series weapons (G-3, MP series, HK5x series, HK9x series) use a BLOWBACK gas system (roller-delayed-blowback, aka 'Roller Lock'), and DO NOT HAVE A PISTON DRIVEN ACTION.

2) There is no problem with M16 or M4 reliability. Apart from the early days where the Army issued the wrong powder, didn't issue cleaning kits, and told troops the M16 was self cleaning, it has been sufficiently reliable for military use. This means a M16 will not jam from lack of cleaning unless the soldier who's operating it is extremely negligent with their cleaning regimen... The gun can fire 6,000-7,000 rounds between cleanings easily, without the inferior accuracy and other functional issues that come from the gas-piston design...

3) Any weapon that perports to be a M4 or M16 and DOES NOT have direct-impingement is an inferior bastardization. The direct-gas system is what makes the M16 what it is.

4) If the M16 is in such need of improvement, How come the special forces of so many countries with supposedly 'wonderful' piston-driven rifles - INCLUDING THE LAST GUN THAT H&K TRIED TO 'IMPROVE', THE SA80A2 (although the (piston-operated) SA80 was a POS before HK touched it, it is still a POS today) go out of their way to aquire and use M4s

Yeah, that's right... The M4 is the most popular special-forces weapon in countries that use 5.56mm...

Oh, and as for the 'wonderful' AK-derived Galil? Israel has removed them from service except for with their 3rd-line troops, the Israeli equivalent of our National Guard. Weight and accuracy issues were the main reasons...

Everyone else gets M16-pattern weapons, and would continue to recieve them if internal politics hadn't forced them to 'Buy Local', ergo Tavor (Which is NOT based on the AK system, although I believe it is a piston design)... The Izzys never complained about M16 reliability, and they live/fight in the desert, too...
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:55:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:

Originally Posted By GorkoSan:
First, I'd like to point out that I'm a great fan of the Armaleite design. But to be totaly honest it lacks reliability big time. I know it might hurt someones pride, that a german company improved an american product, but let's face it. One can claim that the original Armalite M16/AR15 design is superior, but that is just plain stupid to say. The HKM416 (as the H&K M4 is officialy called now) is a derivate of the G36 series of H&K rifles, whoch again are mostly a derivate (...much improved but still) of the AK-47, whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. To call it bastardized products is somewhat hipocritical, for it's true that they want to make money of it, but they are also offering to upgrade current weapons so american fighting men will no longer need to fear rhar their colt made unreliable guns will jam when they least need it. In my opinion, the HKM416 is all I've evr wanted in a gun. The great, design of Eugene Stoner combined with the reliability of the AK by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov. I'm not gonna claim these are facts that are undesputed but I will say this, not all that is american is good just because it is american, many things are, but many are not. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I really belive H&K at this time, makes the bes military weapons available (...in general speaking)



Well put my friend, well put. Its nice to finally see a realistic person here on the HK M4 and XM8. We are a rare breed. Welcome to the boards!





Another one who just takes whatever he's fed...

The sky is green, RemPss...

What color is the sky?

RemPss: Green Sir!
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:53:37 PM EST
ALl the HK M4's are in safes where they belong, because they are gonna cost too damn much when they hit the market to be worth buying.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:42:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By nf9648:
ALl the HK M4's are in safes where they belong, because they are gonna cost too damn much when they hit the market to be worth buying.



Heard about $1500...
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:27:17 PM EST
WOW! $1,500 for just an upper!

nf9648: Well, I guess if you want to play with the big boys, you're gonna have to ante up, for me I'm out. Too rich for my blood, I'm not a die-hard HK fan.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:22:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 6:23:55 AM EST by hepcat85]

Originally Posted By GorkoSan:
First, I'd like to point out that I'm a great fan of the Armaleite design. But to be totaly honest it lacks reliability big time. I know it might hurt someones pride, that a german company improved an american product, but let's face it. One can claim that the original Armalite M16/AR15 design is superior, but that is just plain stupid to say. The HKM416 (as the H&K M4 is officialy called now) is a derivate of the G36 series of H&K rifles, whoch again are mostly a derivate (...much improved but still) of the AK-47, whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. To call it bastardized products is somewhat hipocritical, for it's true that they want to make money of it, but they are also offering to upgrade current weapons so american fighting men will no longer need to fear rhar their colt made unreliable guns will jam when they least need it. In my opinion, the HKM416 is all I've evr wanted in a gun. The great, design of Eugene Stoner combined with the reliability of the AK by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov. I'm not gonna claim these are facts that are undesputed but I will say this, not all that is american is good just because it is american, many things are, but many are not. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I really belive H&K at this time, makes the bes military weapons available (...in general speaking)



Oh boy, here it comes......

Good first post. Welcome....and watch your back from the Colt Mafia...

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:01:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:

Originally Posted By GorkoSan:
First, I'd like to point out that I'm a great fan of the Armaleite design. But to be totaly honest it lacks reliability big time. I know it might hurt someones pride, that a german company improved an american product, but let's face it. One can claim that the original Armalite M16/AR15 design is superior, but that is just plain stupid to say. The HKM416 (as the H&K M4 is officialy called now) is a derivate of the G36 series of H&K rifles, whoch again are mostly a derivate (...much improved but still) of the AK-47, whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. To call it bastardized products is somewhat hipocritical, for it's true that they want to make money of it, but they are also offering to upgrade current weapons so american fighting men will no longer need to fear rhar their colt made unreliable guns will jam when they least need it. In my opinion, the HKM416 is all I've evr wanted in a gun. The great, design of Eugene Stoner combined with the reliability of the AK by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov. I'm not gonna claim these are facts that are undesputed but I will say this, not all that is american is good just because it is american, many things are, but many are not. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I really belive H&K at this time, makes the bes military weapons available (...in general speaking)



Well put my friend, well put. Its nice to finally see a realistic person here on the HK M4 and XM8. We are a rare breed. Welcome to the boards!



I forgot to show the smilie faces...sorry.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 2:03:30 PM EST
Personally I feel a new upper for the AmericanRifle is a good thing no matter who or what made it. The M16/AR blows dirty gas back into the bolt. It makes a mess. Why not have an upper that works differently?

For 'good' soldiers, law enforcement, and citizens who clean their weapons all the time it really does not matter. Since after a few hundred rounds you clean it.

What about the soldier or person who does not have the time/desire/ whatever reason to clean the action of his rifle. Not blowing dirty gas back into bolt is a good thing.

Besides, Olympic and ZM already make uppers that are configured like this. The fact that the "prestigious" HK want to make M16/AR's is a compliment to any American and Mr. Stoener himself.

hug.gif
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 2:43:02 PM EST


What about the soldier or person who does not have the time/desire/ whatever reason to clean the action of his rifle. Not blowing dirty gas back into bolt is a good thing.





This person you describe is a filthy, non-disciplined slob who shouldnt be around a rifle in the first place. Sounds like someone who lacks the will to live if he is in a combat environment. Im proud to say no soldier under me has been allowed to do anything like that.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 7:06:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 7:11:12 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By beerbarron:
Personally I feel a new upper for the AmericanRifle is a good thing no matter who or what made it. The M16/AR blows dirty gas back into the bolt. It makes a mess. Why not have an upper that works differently?

For 'good' soldiers, law enforcement, and citizens who clean their weapons all the time it really does not matter. Since after a few hundred rounds you clean it.

What about the soldier or person who does not have the time/desire/ whatever reason to clean the action of his rifle. Not blowing dirty gas back into bolt is a good thing.

Besides, Olympic and ZM already make uppers that are configured like this. The fact that the "prestigious" HK want to make M16/AR's is a compliment to any American and Mr. Stoener himself.




Olympic and ZM do it 'right'

Their systems HAVE NO PISTON, and simply moves the recoil spring forward to allow for a folding stock... Both are still direct gas. The difference is that ZM places their recoil spring around the gas tube, Olympic has a 'recoil spring tube' above the normal gas tube, which looks like a 'piston gas tube' but is not connected to gas....

So if you want a folder, that works... Otherwise, there's no reason...

And the 'dirty gas' thing is BS -> it doesn't cause any problems, your gun will jam from environmental conditions LONG before it jams from 'carbon fouling'...

We're talking 5,000-6,000 rounds here... And no professional is going to go that long without taking the 5-10 minutes (7 on average) to do the quick field cleaning needed to maintain reliable function...

'Dirty gas in the upper' contributing to an AR jamming is like saying the 416 or M14 will jam from 'dirty gas in the gas tube' binding the free-floating piston (it just degrades accuracy if you don't clean the gas system on a floating-piston weapon, a/o causing a jam)...
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:25:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By GorkoSan:
First, I'd like to point out that I'm a great fan of the Armaleite design. But to be totaly honest it lacks reliability big time. I know it might hurt someones pride, that a german company improved an american product, but let's face it. One can claim that the original Armalite M16/AR15 design is superior, but that is just plain stupid to say. The HKM416 (as the H&K M4 is officialy called now) is a derivate of the G36 series of H&K rifles, whoch again are mostly a derivate (...much improved but still) of the AK-47, whoch beats reliability of almost any rifle in existance (...although, like any gun it can be jamed) The H&K took the M4 design (...yeah it's a colt trademark and their design) and improved it to the point that it can hold it's ground on pair with any Galil, AK or any other reliable assault or battle rifle. To call it bastardized products is somewhat hipocritical, for it's true that they want to make money of it, but they are also offering to upgrade current weapons so american fighting men will no longer need to fear rhar their colt made unreliable guns will jam when they least need it. In my opinion, the HKM416 is all I've evr wanted in a gun. The great, design of Eugene Stoner combined with the reliability of the AK by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov. I'm not gonna claim these are facts that are undesputed but I will say this, not all that is american is good just because it is american, many things are, but many are not. I hope I did not offend anyone, but I really belive H&K at this time, makes the bes military weapons available (...in general speaking)



......ohh brother are you off big time
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:22:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/5/2004 7:24:48 AM EST by Rem700PSS]
Okay...everyone, stop the argueing. Whenever we get into a thread about HK's XM8 or M4 it turns out like this.

I'd like to make the following statements.

1. The HK M4 beats the Colt M4 in relieablity.
2. The HK XM8 beats the Colt M4 in relieability.
3. The HK M4 and XM8 are easier to clean and maintain than the Colt M4.
4. The HK M4 and XM8 have a far superior design than that of the Colt M4.
5. The HK M4 and XM8 can handle more rounds between cleanings than the entire service life of the Colt M4.
6. The gas short-stroke piston is a far superior design than the direct gas blowback design.

No one can honestly sit here and say the Colt M4 or M16 is more relieable than the HK M4 or XM8. You may say it but deep down you know that simply is not true. It isn't. Not in any way, shape, or form. I understand that you AR15 guys are pissed at HK because their are going make the M16 and M4 obsolete but face the facts, the HK's are both MUCH better systems. So get off of your high horses and accept it.

This was suppose to be a post about the availability of the HK M4 Uppers now that the AWB has ended. It is not a discussion about which one is better (because deep down, we all know the answer).
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:42:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 2:44:33 AM EST by samcan]
Why do I only get 600 hundred to 800 hundred rounds out of my colt AR's befor they jam? hinking.gif
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 5:34:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By nf9648:


What about the soldier or person who does not have the time/desire/ whatever reason to clean the action of his rifle. Not blowing dirty gas back into bolt is a good thing.





This person you describe is a filthy, non-disciplined slob who shouldnt be around a rifle in the first place. Sounds like someone who lacks the will to live if he is in a combat environment. Im proud to say no soldier under me has been allowed to do anything like that.



Military equipment has to be made for the lowest common denominator.

You think too highly of soldiers. The fact is, allot of soldiers are simply too lazy to clean their weapons like they should. Right or wrong, it’s just a fact of life. Their NCOs might be just as lazy, or not simply have the time to make sure they do it.

However, I fail to see how a gas piston would help reduce stoppages due to sand, dirt, etc. The bolt carrier/upper will still have the same close tolerances and will jam if sand ends up in there. The AK is reliable because it has such loose tolerances.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 7:05:16 PM EST
I think it's premature to pass judgement on HK's M4's but if they're M4 mags are any indicator they'll be overpriced, shiny, and less-reliable.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 7:29:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 7:31:10 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Stottman:

Originally Posted By nf9648:


What about the soldier or person who does not have the time/desire/ whatever reason to clean the action of his rifle. Not blowing dirty gas back into bolt is a good thing.





This person you describe is a filthy, non-disciplined slob who shouldnt be around a rifle in the first place. Sounds like someone who lacks the will to live if he is in a combat environment. Im proud to say no soldier under me has been allowed to do anything like that.



Military equipment has to be made for the lowest common denominator.

You think too highly of soldiers. The fact is, allot of soldiers are simply too lazy to clean their weapons like they should. Right or wrong, it’s just a fact of life. Their NCOs might be just as lazy, or not simply have the time to make sure they do it.

However, I fail to see how a gas piston would help reduce stoppages due to sand, dirt, etc. The bolt carrier/upper will still have the same close tolerances and will jam if sand ends up in there. The AK is reliable because it has such loose tolerances.



That's the Russian way...

The US way is to make military equipment for a properly trained professional soldier, and expect your troops to perform well enough to utilize the equipment properly...

ALL of our military equipment is designed around the fact that it will be operated by competant professionals, with the presumption that the 'least common denominator' will be shaped up or shipped out... While it may not do well for the few LCDs who stay, it's the reason why less than 100 Marine riflemen can take on 300 enemy 'Least Common Denominators' with AKs & whip them soundly, at a cost of 3 Marines wounded (none severely enough to take them out of the fight)....

The AK doesn't have 'loose tolerances', but rather wide clearances. And for all the myth & legend, they jam up tighter than a drum in Iraq, just like any other gun... Don't believe me, ask the guys here who have been responsible for training Iraqi troops, or who's men carried AKs because M4s were not available in quantity...

Link Posted: 10/11/2004 7:38:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 7:38:34 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
Okay...everyone, stop the argueing. Whenever we get into a thread about HK's XM8 or M4 it turns out like this.

I'd like to make the following statements.

1. The HK M4 beats the Colt M4 in relieablity. Debatable
2. The HK XM8 beats the Colt M4 in relieability. Debatable
3. The HK M4 and XM8 are easier to clean and maintain than the Colt M4. OOOH, we save 1-2 minutes!!! I think that's worth the money... NOT!
4. The HK M4 and XM8 have a far superior design than that of the Colt M4. No, It's not
5. The HK M4 and XM8 can handle more rounds between cleanings than the entire service life of the Colt M4. False
6. The gas short-stroke piston is a far superior design than the direct gas blowback design. ARs don't use blowback. Direct Impingement, however, is the best operating system available for semi-auto rifles

No one can honestly sit here and say the Colt M4 or M16 is more relieable than the HK M4 or XM8. You may say it but deep down you know that simply is not true. It isn't. Not in any way, shape, or form. I understand that you AR15 guys are pissed at HK because their are going make the M16 and M4 obsolete but face the facts, the HK's are both MUCH better systems. So get off of your high horses and accept it. No, they're not. The fact is, you don't know jack about what you're talking about. We, on our 'high horses' do... You're quoting a bunch of strung-together bullshit & marketing propaganda, we have 40 years of experience on our side...

You can't say the HK M4 or XM-8 is more reliable, as HK refuses to submit to a head-to-head test

You can't say it's a better or more advanced system, it's been in use long before the AR design was laid down, but for *some reason* wasn't used... Maybe because Stoner managed to create a BETTER system?

For all the reliablility stats you can post, the fact is that (A) the 2 guns have never been put thru a side-by-side comparison, (B) The XM-8 melts & may possibly crack due to it's polymer construction, and (C) you are essentially one of those folks who would praise a gold-plated pile of dogshit if it had the HK logo on it... Further, the HK SM-8 cannot be free-floated, cannot ever reach the level of modularity the AR has, and will NEVER even APPROACH AR accuracy levels. You have a 2MOA weapon here, AT BEST, and you're calling it 'superior'? HAH


This was suppose to be a post about the availability of the HK M4 Uppers now that the AWB has ended. It is not a discussion about which one is better (because deep down, we all know the answer). Apparently, you don't

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:41:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 5:42:31 AM EST by _DR]
Critics, Just accept the fact that:

1. Some of us like the gas piston design and believe it to be superior.
2. Some of us believe HK makes a superior product.
3. This doesn't mean we do not like and appreciate the current AR15 type design.
4. You can argue all day long, the fact is both systems have their drawbacks and advantages.
5. Those of us who appreciate the HK gas piston system AND have hands on experience with HK gas piston rifles (SL8, G36) will not be dissuaded by anything less than hands-on experience with the HKM4.


Anything else is a moot point.

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:30:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
Okay...everyone, stop the argueing. Whenever we get into a thread about HK's XM8 or M4 it turns out like this.

I'd like to make the following statements.

1. The HK M4 beats the Colt M4 in relieablity. Debatable
2. The HK XM8 beats the Colt M4 in relieability. Debatable
3. The HK M4 and XM8 are easier to clean and maintain than the Colt M4. OOOH, we save 1-2 minutes!!! I think that's worth the money... NOT!
4. The HK M4 and XM8 have a far superior design than that of the Colt M4. No, It's not
5. The HK M4 and XM8 can handle more rounds between cleanings than the entire service life of the Colt M4. False
6. The gas short-stroke piston is a far superior design than the direct gas blowback design. ARs don't use blowback. Direct Impingement, however, is the best operating system available for semi-auto rifles

No one can honestly sit here and say the Colt M4 or M16 is more relieable than the HK M4 or XM8. You may say it but deep down you know that simply is not true. It isn't. Not in any way, shape, or form. I understand that you AR15 guys are pissed at HK because their are going make the M16 and M4 obsolete but face the facts, the HK's are both MUCH better systems. So get off of your high horses and accept it. No, they're not. The fact is, you don't know jack about what you're talking about. We, on our 'high horses' do... You're quoting a bunch of strung-together bullshit & marketing propaganda, we have 40 years of experience on our side...

You can't say the HK M4 or XM-8 is more reliable, as HK refuses to submit to a head-to-head test

You can't say it's a better or more advanced system, it's been in use long before the AR design was laid down, but for *some reason* wasn't used... Maybe because Stoner managed to create a BETTER system?

For all the reliablility stats you can post, the fact is that (A) the 2 guns have never been put thru a side-by-side comparison, (B) The XM-8 melts & may possibly crack due to it's polymer construction, and (C) you are essentially one of those folks who would praise a gold-plated pile of dogshit if it had the HK logo on it... Further, the HK SM-8 cannot be free-floated, cannot ever reach the level of modularity the AR has, and will NEVER even APPROACH AR accuracy levels. You have a 2MOA weapon here, AT BEST, and you're calling it 'superior'? HAH


This was suppose to be a post about the availability of the HK M4 Uppers now that the AWB has ended. It is not a discussion about which one is better (because deep down, we all know the answer). Apparently, you don't




Dear Lord...I'm not even going to go back and fix all the things wrong there. The XM8 and HKM4 are far more relieable than the Colt M4...you are just plain ignorant if you think otherwise.

XM8 vs M4 Check out the relieablity and service life part...20,000 vs. 8,000...at the cost of a fucking rail for your flashlight! You ignorant POS...

In testing the XM8 had more than 8,000 rounds put through it and its still running fine. None of those arguments are debateable. To say that the Colt M4 is just as relieable as the XM8 or HK M4 is just balderdash, AND YOU KNOW IT! I get it though, you guys are pissed that your Colt's are now only 2nd best behind HK. I understand and I know it sucks...but move on. If you truely support our troops, you'll let them adopt the XM8.

HK has a much better track record than Colt, my friend. And this won't be the first weapon Colt has been replaced by HK with...need we forget the Mk23 OHWS? Who competed there...oh yeah, Colt and HK...who won...fudge, thats right HK...and guess what...ITS HAPPENING AGAIN!
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:02:18 PM EST
I hope HK used a different polymer for the XM8...

Thread 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:13:41 PM EST
There is a better player in the field, but my lips are sealed.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:40:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:59:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 3:01:20 PM EST by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:06:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 4:37:13 PM EST by Rem700PSS]

Originally Posted By nf9648:
I hope HK used a different polymer for the XM8...

Thread 1
Link 2
Link 3



Theres a HUGE difference between the SL8 and the XM8 there pal. If you read, the crack was pretty much due to user error. Its just the way the full stock receiver was built. HK has fixed the problems though with their new stock structure. XM8 uses a stronger/different materal anyway, so no problems.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:09:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
There is a better player in the field, but my lips are sealed.



I know of a guy who makes a similar system to the HK system for the M4 that is about 1/3 the price of HK's unit.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:43:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
There is a better player in the field, but my lips are sealed.



I know of a guy who makes a similar system to the HK system for the M4 that is about 1/3 the price of HK's unit.



If you don't tell us we will torture it out of you.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:54:32 PM EST


Go to the website for more great pics.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 7:23:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By nf9648:
www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/Misc/M9M4Exposed.jpg

Go to the website for more great pics.



Jesus H...You'd trust that over an HK? Would you trust a SW5 over a MP5?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:31:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:

Originally Posted By nf9648:
www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/Misc/M9M4Exposed.jpg

Go to the website for more great pics.



Jesus H...You'd trust that over an HK? Would you trust a SW5 over a MP5?



I dont trust anything I cant afford...
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:37:46 AM EST
Yeah, I know about Kurt's system. I've been waiting for him to make it available for some time.

I do believe Kurt is a master craftsman, but he will never be a serious player in the AR market if he doesn't get some kind of mass production going. He is excruciatingly slow.

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 7:25:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 7:34:25 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
Okay...everyone, stop the argueing. Whenever we get into a thread about HK's XM8 or M4 it turns out like this.

I'd like to make the following statements.

1. The HK M4 beats the Colt M4 in relieablity. Debatable
2. The HK XM8 beats the Colt M4 in relieability. Debatable
3. The HK M4 and XM8 are easier to clean and maintain than the Colt M4. OOOH, we save 1-2 minutes!!! I think that's worth the money... NOT!
4. The HK M4 and XM8 have a far superior design than that of the Colt M4. No, It's not
5. The HK M4 and XM8 can handle more rounds between cleanings than the entire service life of the Colt M4. False
6. The gas short-stroke piston is a far superior design than the direct gas blowback design. ARs don't use blowback. Direct Impingement, however, is the best operating system available for semi-auto rifles

No one can honestly sit here and say the Colt M4 or M16 is more relieable than the HK M4 or XM8. You may say it but deep down you know that simply is not true. It isn't. Not in any way, shape, or form. I understand that you AR15 guys are pissed at HK because their are going make the M16 and M4 obsolete but face the facts, the HK's are both MUCH better systems. So get off of your high horses and accept it. No, they're not. The fact is, you don't know jack about what you're talking about. We, on our 'high horses' do... You're quoting a bunch of strung-together bullshit & marketing propaganda, we have 40 years of experience on our side...

You can't say the HK M4 or XM-8 is more reliable, as HK refuses to submit to a head-to-head test

You can't say it's a better or more advanced system, it's been in use long before the AR design was laid down, but for *some reason* wasn't used... Maybe because Stoner managed to create a BETTER system?

For all the reliablility stats you can post, the fact is that (A) the 2 guns have never been put thru a side-by-side comparison, (B) The XM-8 melts & may possibly crack due to it's polymer construction, and (C) you are essentially one of those folks who would praise a gold-plated pile of dogshit if it had the HK logo on it... Further, the HK SM-8 cannot be free-floated, cannot ever reach the level of modularity the AR has, and will NEVER even APPROACH AR accuracy levels. You have a 2MOA weapon here, AT BEST, and you're calling it 'superior'? HAH


This was suppose to be a post about the availability of the HK M4 Uppers now that the AWB has ended. It is not a discussion about which one is better (because deep down, we all know the answer). Apparently, you don't




Dear Lord...I'm not even going to go back and fix all the things wrong there. The XM8 and HKM4 are far more relieable than the Colt M4...you are just plain ignorant if you think otherwise.

XM8 vs M4 Check out the relieablity and service life part...20,000 vs. 8,000...at the cost of a fucking rail for your flashlight! You ignorant POS... First, personal attacks are against the COC. You can call a weapons system a POS, but calling members POSes will give you a VERY short lifespan on this board!

Second, HK's marketing literature is BULLSHIT. Your blind love of the company has apparently reached the point where you consider their word gospel...

This is a company that outright LIED to the US government in their XM-8 promotional materials, on SEVERAL occasions. Think about that... Do you still wonder why I don't believe THEIR marketing materials as proof of anything?


In testing the XM8 had more than 8,000 rounds put through it and its still running fine. None of those arguments are debateable. To say that the Colt M4 is just as relieable as the XM8 or HK M4 is just balderdash, AND YOU KNOW IT! I get it though, you guys are pissed that your Colt's are now only 2nd best behind HK. I understand and I know it sucks...but move on. If you truely support our troops, you'll let them adopt the XM8.

1) There you go again.. This time you're questioning my patriotisim.. Well, Sir, I am within a month or two of BEING one of 'our troops', thankyou very much...

2) I know that numerous people have gotten M16s to fire 6,000-8,000 rounds. Our own CampyBob has fired over 6,000 full-auto rounds thru an M16 without cleaning, and without a jam... He could have gone further, but didn't...

I *KNOW* very well that the AR platform is reliable to the point of functional irrelevance. I also KNOW that even a cheap, low-end Olympic Arms AR-15 will outshoot any of your darling company's products EXCEPT the PSG-1, and the SR-25 will 'handle' a PSG-1 quite nicely.

So, you have a product with NO functional advantage, which has NEVER been independantly tested to verfiy anh of HK's claims, based on a system that is KNOWN to be less accurate than the AR (the G36).

As for your reliability claims, go ahead & buy an HK upper if you wish... But for $1500 each, I would be FURIOUS if the government wasted one red cent on them...

That $1500 could buy alot of stuff our troops really need, instead of an INFERIOR product that DECREASES the lethality of their weaposn system (by worsening accuracy), all for a WORTHLESS 'reliability gain' (since NO ONE will ever go that far without cleaning their weapon, and EVEN IF THEY DO, that's a soldier/chain-of-command problem, not a rifle problem. You don't fix a problem of sloppy, inept weapons maintanance by giving them a sloppy weapon. You fix it by FORCING PROPER WEAPONS MAINTANANCE) that has yet to be proven valid anyhow...



HK has a much better track record than Colt, my friend. HK has almost NO track record... What wars have HK rifles been the main weapons in? Waiting, waiting...

ArmaLite/Colt weapons have been the primary weapons in Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Gulf 1, Afganhistan, Gulf 2, and the latter portion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The AR system is the #2 most deployed weapons system IN THE WORLD, behind the crude-but-cheap-to-make AKM (which is 'widely deployed' because it is the bottom-dollar cheapest assault weapons system available, and thus the choice of 3rd-world despots everywhere).


And this won't be the first weapon Colt has been replaced by HK with...need we forget the Mk23 OHWS? Who competed there...oh yeah, Colt and HK...who won...fudge, thats right HK...and guess what...ITS HAPPENING AGAIN! 1) Colt wasn't replaced by HK, BERETTA replaced Colt, and in return was replaced by HK in specialized situations where a .45ACP weapon was desired. The 1911 was out of service long before the MK23 came into service.

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:06:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
If you truely support our troops, you'll let them adopt the XM8.




I served in Iraq, I will stick with my regular old M16A2, you can keep the HK.
The most rounds I ever fired in combat was 200 rounds out of my SAW, and I and everyone in my unit cleaned our weapons every night (I was the gunner, I had to clean three weapon systems, SAW, MK-19 and M9)

If you truely support our troops, you'd be urging congress to be buying me body armor and armored HUMVEEs, maybe even giving me a pay raise so I am not one of the lowest paid professions on this planet before they would waste a ton of money on a weapon system that we don't need.

And, I trained a lot at Camp Williams, UT. I am not special forces, but I did participate training with them (mostly as the opfor armed with simunition rounds). Let me say that the Special Forces guys were some of the baddest, most hardcore, mofos I have ever seen. They trained hard, and could do shit that I wouldn't believe was possible (like get to the third story of a building on the outside, using no ropes or grappling hooks). It usually took four of us armed with simunition uppers to take out one SF guy, our losses were 4 to 1. They all were armed with pistols, saw a lot of SIGs, one or two 1911s, no HK MK23 pistols. These guys could choose what they want and not one carried the "official" pistol of the Special Forces (they all said it was because it was a huge pistol, they all wanted something smaller)
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:16:24 AM EST
Dave_A,

Before I go through and defend everything I just said to what you said, let me first ask you an honest question, and the rest of you.

What do you honestly have against the XM8 and HKM4?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:27:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rem700PSS:
Dave_A,

Before I go through and defend everything I just said to what you said, let me first ask you an honest question, and the rest of you.

What do you honestly have against the XM8 and HKM4?



I know I am not Dave_A but here goes,

It's a solution looking for a problem.

The thing I don't like about the XM8 is we need the money for other things. I drove around Iraq and especially Fallujah for a year. I was in an unarmored humvee and for half of the year all I had for protection was a flak vest that's worthless. I was more concerned about armor and other things than to replace the M16A2 that worked fine for us.
True, sometimes they jammed. But my unit ran the police acadamy in Ramadi, and we saw some jammed AKs there too. In Iraq, weapons will jam, especially if they are not cleaned (and I don't care what weapon it is, be it the M4, AK, or XM8)

What does the XM8 give over the M4 besides the optics (which we can fix easily and more cheaply)?
(although I do like the HK grenade launcher that comes with the XM8 better than the M203)
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:12:48 PM EST

What does the XM8 give over the M4 besides the optics (which we can fix easily and more cheaply)?



I'm going to have to disagree there. The XM8 roughly costs $600 w/o optics and $1800 with optics, where as the equivelent M4 costs $900 w/o optics and $2500 with the eqivelent optic set up.

Believe me, I agree we need better armor over there too. But I also think it is time to get a more modern platform that doesn't rely on Vietnam era technology.

I'd like to make it clear that I have nothing against the M16 and M4, I think they are fine weapons. However, I just feel that the XM8 is a better weapon to be issueing to our troops. In the longer run its going to be cheaper having the M8 than the M4 and in turn the saved money can be put towards something else, ie. armor.
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