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Posted: 8/5/2011 8:21:44 PM EST
What do they do that actually that takes 2-3 months before signing off on a F4 or F1? I'm just curious what they're process or protocol is.
VP
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 3:31:54 AM EST
[#1]
a big part of the wait is the fingerprint cards.  as I understand it, they go over to the FBI, and until they come back, your paperwork sits there gathering dust.  Thats why Trusts are so quick.
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 3:43:31 AM EST
[#2]
The biggest part of the wait is the stack of forms ahead of yours.
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 4:32:21 AM EST
[#3]
Quoted:
What do they do that actually that takes 2-3 months before signing off on a F4 or F1? I'm just curious what they're process or protocol is.


Think that's bad try getting a high level security clearance.  It can take 2+ years before someone is adjudicated.
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 4:34:26 AM EST
[#4]
Quoted:
a big part of the wait is the fingerprint cards.  as I understand it, they go over to the FBI, and until they come back, your paperwork sits there gathering dust.  Thats why Trusts are so quick.


I've done the trust route and I'm 4 months in and not stamps.
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 6:17:24 AM EST
[#5]
Quoted:
The biggest part of the wait is the stack of forms ahead of yours.


Yep. Sheer volume.
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 10:10:26 AM EST
[#6]
i've been looking on GemTechs facebook page and they post pics of the POUNDS of forms they send in at once, as in 500+ forms in one or five boxes to the ATF.  This is just one... ONE manufacturer, just think what AAC or SF looks like.  This is also a big part of the wait.


form 3s and 5s


form 4s




more 3s and 5s


and even more form 3s




(these pics are from GemTechs Facebook page, hope you guys don't mind me posting them here)
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 11:21:33 AM EST
[#7]
It's the all the mandated Coffee Breaks, Smoke Breaks (out of Doors), Excersize (cardio-time) break, Lunch break, Afternoon Coffee break, Supreme leader/propaganda pep-rally hour, etc.etc.
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 2:58:44 PM EST
[#8]
Quoted:
i've been looking on GemTechs facebook page and they post pics of the POUNDS of forms they send in at once, as in 500+ forms in one or five boxes to the ATF.  This is just one... ONE manufacturer, just think what AAC or SF looks like.  This is also a big part of the wait.


form 3s and 5s
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/164857_478109755918_95700145918_6339639_5648302_n.jpg

form 4s
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/36358_405585990918_95700145918_4891089_5011271_n.jpg



more 3s and 5s
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/19354_326201250918_95700145918_4106034_2717791_n.jpg

and even more form 3s
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/283096_10150255488835919_95700145918_8003209_7344653_n.jpg



(these pics are from GemTechs Facebook page, hope you guys don't mind me posting them here)


Those asshole are jam'n up the system.

Link Posted: 8/6/2011 5:39:25 PM EST
[#9]
Quoted:
a big part of the wait is the fingerprint cards.  as I understand it, they go over to the FBI, and until they come back, your paperwork sits there gathering dust.  Thats why Trusts are so quick.


They do the fingerprint cards in house now, been a couple years since they farmed those out according to my examiner, I'm pretty sure it's just sheer volume as many have said. A lot of forms go through the NFA branch for less than a dozen people to process, for the amount of staff they have they do a good job IMHO. What would be nice is an examiner or two per state, but unfortunately our hobbies are not very high on ATF's or anyone else's list of priorities
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 6:55:43 PM EST
[#10]
Quoted:
The biggest part of the wait is the stack of forms ahead of yours.


This is the truth. And the number of problems they run into with forms ahead of yours.
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 7:07:34 PM EST
[#11]
Say they're no other forms ahead of you or behind you, how long do you guys think it takes to process a single form 4 on a trust?
Link Posted: 8/6/2011 11:12:17 PM EST
[#12]
30-60 minutes at most if I had to guess, but I have absolutely no factual evidence to base that guess on, might even be as quick as 10-15 minutes
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 4:46:05 AM EST
[#13]
Quoted:
What do they do that actually that takes 2-3 months before signing off on a F4 or F1?


They sit around and make fun of your picture.  They scan it, make copies and draw mustaches, throw darts at it and then shred when done.

Link Posted: 8/7/2011 7:02:55 AM EST
[#14]
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 7:35:20 AM EST
[#15]
Quoted:
Well, let's do the math:

Examiners process all the Forms 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 and 20. Currently the total of these arriving at NFA Branch is bordering 120,000 per year.

There currently are 10 –– yes, ten! ––examiners. That's 1,000 applications per examiner per month, or 250 per week, or 50 applications per examiner per day.

But: Don't forget they are federal employees. Between vacation and federal holidays, they lose about a month per year (and you'd better pray they don't get sick or, heavens!, pregnant). So there's at least an extra 1,000 applications per year on top of the above rate.

So to keep up, even if they work five days a week, 52 weeks a year, they must process (each day's 50 divided by 8 hours =) one application every 6.25 minutes.

Now, what happens when an application is incorrectly filled out, or the documentation is incomplete, or printed on one-sided paper, or someone tries a "multi", or the trust does not meet legal standards as decreed by ATF Legal Branch?

That six minutes goes out the window as they figure out whether it can be corrected by phone (and try to reach the applicant), or they fill out the rejection slip, attached it to the application, stuff it in an envelope and put it in the outgoing mail. And that means the other 49 they had planned to process that day get pushed back.

Obviously, we need more examiners. But that is not going to happen, because ATF's budget is set by the openly antigun Justice Department and approved by the antigun Congress. It serves the federal government's goal for the NFA approval to take as long as possible.

A few years ago, the ATF honchos testified before a Congressional subcommittee on many subjects, but one question posed by a Congresscritter was: On average, how long does it take you to process an NFA application? ATF's answer: Six months. Congress's response: That's good enough.

Guys, the villains here are not the NFA Branch examiners. It's their bosses, who do not give them adequate staffing and funding.

YMMV.


Excellent post.
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 12:37:17 PM EST
[#16]
Thank you, that is exactly the info I was looking for.
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 3:52:22 PM EST
[#17]
Tony you forgot the work from home time loss.
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 5:02:40 PM EST
[#18]
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 7:16:44 PM EST
[#19]
Wait, what about the home thing, they are now allowed to take forms home and work on them from there?
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 7:33:35 PM EST
[#20]
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 7:39:07 PM EST
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wait, what about the home thing, they are now allowed to take forms home and work on them from there?

Yes. The majority of the examiners work from home two or three days a week.

Would you prefer that they go back dragging their butts to the office five days a week, and having approval turnaround drop by 15%? Because that's how much things speeded up when they were allowed to work from home.

As far as I'm concerned, if working naked in a hot tub on Mars decreased turnaround time by 15%, that would be fine by me.

Your Mileage May Vary.


Agreed.
Link Posted: 8/7/2011 8:34:49 PM EST
[#22]
Quoted:
It's the all the mandated Coffee Breaks, Smoke Breaks (out of Doors), Excersize (cardio-time) break, Lunch break, Afternoon Coffee break, Supreme leader/propaganda pep-rally hour, etc.etc.


Dont forget queer day, too.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 11:18:55 AM EST
[#23]
Quoted:
Well, let's do the math:

Examiners process all the Forms 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 and 20. Currently the total of these arriving at NFA Branch is bordering 120,000 per year.

There currently are 10 –– yes, ten! ––examiners. That's 1,000 applications per examiner per month, or 250 per week, or 50 applications per examiner per day.

But: Don't forget they are federal employees. Between vacation and federal holidays, they lose about a month per year (and you'd better pray they don't get sick or, heavens!, pregnant). So there's at least an extra 1,000 applications per year on top of the above rate.

So to keep up, even if they work five days a week, 52 weeks a year, they must process (each day's 50 divided by 8 hours =) one application every 6.25 minutes.

Now, what happens when an application is incorrectly filled out, or the documentation is incomplete, or printed on one-sided paper, or someone tries a "multi", or the trust does not meet legal standards as decreed by ATF Legal Branch?

That six minutes goes out the window as they figure out whether it can be corrected by phone (and try to reach the applicant), or they fill out the rejection slip, attached it to the application, stuff it in an envelope and put it in the outgoing mail. And that means the other 49 they had planned to process that day get pushed back.

Obviously, we need more examiners. But that is not going to happen, because ATF's budget is set by the openly antigun Justice Department and approved by the antigun Congress. It serves the federal government's goal for the NFA approval to take as long as possible.

A few years ago, the ATF honchos testified before a Congressional subcommittee on many subjects, but one question posed by a Congresscritter was: On average, how long does it take you to process an NFA application? ATF's answer: Six months. Congress's response: That's good enough.

Guys, the villains here are not the NFA Branch examiners. It's their bosses, who do not give them adequate staffing and funding.

YMMV.


this post should be added to the other stickied threads or stickied by itself somewhere.
when I was first getting into the game, this info would have been VERY helpful in understanding why it took so damn long to get my stamp back, and eased some of that frustration.
as always tony, thanks for the excellent info.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 11:31:13 AM EST
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wait, what about the home thing, they are now allowed to take forms home and work on them from there?

Yes. The majority of the examiners work from home two or three days a week.

Would you prefer that they go back dragging their butts to the office five days a week, and having approval turnaround drop by 15%? Because that's how much things speeded up when they were allowed to work from home.

As far as I'm concerned, if working naked in a hot tub on Mars decreased turnaround time by 15%, that would be fine by me.

Your Mileage May Vary.

Oh no I wasn't saying that's a bad idea I just herd it as a rumor a while back then didn't know if they are still doing it.  That's a great idea, if It works then keep it up.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 5:53:51 PM EST
[#25]
Quoted:
a big part of the wait is the fingerprint cards.  as I understand it, they go over to the FBI, and until they come back, your paperwork sits there gathering dust.  Thats why Trusts are so quick.


Uh my trust form 4 for a suppressor took 4+ months. It's no faster.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 6:33:00 PM EST
[#26]
My friend did the individual route with CLEO sign off ect.... It took him 10 months. It sounds twice as fast to me.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 6:52:35 PM EST
[#27]
Quoted:
My friend did the individual route with CLEO sign off ect.... It took him 10 months. It sounds twice as fast to me.


Uhhhhmm.  This isn't a legit set in stone system of processing them, the 90 days is just a guess so just cause yours took for ever dosnt mean it's broke.   I sent in a form 4 the 2nd week of feb for an SBR on a trust....  Finally got a letter July 15 saying I had improper trust documents when I had sent in a certificate of trust.  That works as my lawyer made them and I already have 4 things approved with that type of trust doc.  The system is set up to take forever so it's pretty much WORKING PERFECT when you think about it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 7:20:58 PM EST
[#28]



Quoted:


My friend did the individual route with CLEO sign off ect.... It took him 10 months. It sounds twice as fast to me.
I've done trust and individual, they both take about the same amount of time.  Sometimes people get lucky and get their stuff back quicker, other times people crap out, and it takes forever.





 
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 9:05:30 PM EST
[#29]
I just submitted 1 can as an individual and then another can and a sbr as a trust all at the same time.... I'll post my results
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 10:40:54 PM EST
[#30]
I've had LLC transfers take a month, i've had them take 9 months.

It all depends on who gets the form and how back logged they are and if there are any errors.


It also depends on if your dealer sits on the form for a while.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 10:50:12 PM EST
[#31]
After waiting for 4 stamps I know just accept that it will take as long as it takes, I try to do my part and send in my Forms correct so that my examiner won't have to waste any more time trying to correct my mistakes.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 11:19:02 PM EST
[#32]
You ever thing one of them ever reads these threads?



Link Posted: 8/8/2011 11:25:57 PM EST
[#33]
Quoted:
You ever thing one of them ever reads these threads?



Yes.

We have at least one verified NFA examiner that is an active member here. Last I heard he's moved on to other jobs within the company, though.
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 11:50:29 PM EST
[#34]




Quoted:



Quoted:

You ever thing one of them ever reads these threads?







Yes.



We have at least one verified NFA examiner that is an active member here. Last I heard he's moved on to other jobs within the company, though.




He would be a NFA God/Mod
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 4:59:20 AM EST
[#35]
^That's why our applications take so long. All that bitching and moaning we do they know about
Link Posted: 8/9/2011 5:08:49 AM EST
[#36]
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