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Link Posted: 10/13/2020 10:32:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/14/2020 10:44:48 PM EDT by Harlikwin]
LOFL...

I've been sayin stuff like this for years.

Bottom line is some NV is better than none. And two NVG's are better than one. Buy something thats not total garbage (i.e. gen2 mono or a PVS-5 etc), keep it as your hand-out unit or backup if you upgrade. If you don't you'll still be better off than 99% of people that have nothing or at best a big honking flashlight. For years I kept a dogshit Gen1 mono in my GHB due to the fact I worried it would be stolen or break due to heat/cold cycling at some point. But if I ever needed to use it, I'd have it and it was good enough to use for nav to get me home. Sure some guy with gucci gen3 gear would see me if I used it with the illuminator, but he would see the guy with 8 billion lumen flashlight first. At this point I keep a cheap Gen2 in my kit, yeah I'll cry a bit more if I loose it or it breaks, but its also more useful and passive. I've got shiny top end kit at home that honestly gets less use, cuz it happens to be at home not there when I need it. And the ol gen1 or 2 works well enough for everything I've had to use it for.

IMO, way too many people buy into the marketing and hype and wanting to be some NV LARPER or needing to show off with the best of the best sir BS and end up spending tons of money for a unit that they will be too afraid to really use and abuse in the real world. But they'll be comforted that their spec sheet says they have 18% better unit than some other guy, which of course won't matter worth a fuck in the real world because they've never really used their unit, and the guy with the crappier one has cuz he cares less about loosing or breaking it.
Link Posted: 10/14/2020 10:35:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By wjoutlaw:


I've never really placed an emphasis on end gear. Training is the most important factor and will make you effective. The gear is just icing on the cake.

We go to war with the gear we have, not what we want. Train with the gear you have and stop obsessing over the Gucci big money gear.

I'll take a squad of pipe hitters with PVS-5s over a squad of cherries with the high end $10,000 binos any day.

I had a friend that was like that, he had all the high end gear, NVGs, weapons, and not a clue on how to effectively use any of it.
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Yup, lota truth here. Someone that knows how to actually use their gear and its limitations and actually uses it is gonna beat the tactifool everyday.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 9:23:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 9:32:06 AM EDT
Thanks OP good info.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 12:04:00 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin:
LOFL...

I've been sayin stuff like this for years.

Bottom line is some NV is better than none. And two NVG's are better than one. Buy something thats not total garbage (i.e. gen2 mono or a PVS-5 etc), keep it as your hand-out unit or backup if you upgrade. If you don't you'll still be better off than 99% of people that have nothing or at best a big honking flashlight. For years I kept a dogshit Gen1 mono in my GHB due to the fact I worried it would be stolen or break due to heat/cold cycling at some point. But if I ever needed to use it, I'd have it and it was good enough to use for nav to get me home. Sure some guy with gucci gen3 gear would see me if I used it with the illuminator, but he would see the guy with 8 billion lumen flashlight first. At this point I keep a cheap Gen2 in my kit, yeah I'll cry a bit more if I loose it or it breaks, but its also more useful and passive. I've got shiny top end kit at home that honestly gets less use, cuz it happens to be at home not there when I need it. And the ol gen1 or 2 works well enough for everything I've had to use it for.

IMO, way too many people buy into the marketing and hype and wanting to be some NV LARPER or needing to show off with the best of the best sir BS and end up spending tons of money for a unit that they will be too afraid to really use and abuse in the real world. But they'll be comforted that their spec sheet says they have 18% better unit than some other guy, which of course won't matter worth a fuck in the real world because they've never really used their unit, and the guy with the crappier one has cuz he cares less about loosing or breaking it.
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That can be said for any hobby.

If people can afford and want to LARP with the best shit then who cares? I grew up road racing 2&4 wheels and see guys/friends buying cars and bikes with crazy track potential ... and guess what they'll never see the track. They'll be on their social media, cruising down the highway when the weather is nice and that is it. But I don't look down on them or tell them you need "training", why didn't you buy a beater and sign up for track days? Their money and all that, and I think it's awesome that we Americans have the opportunity to buy cool shit.

I actually like those people as I got some great Trackbikes back in the day from those people for cheap, maybe I can pay it forward with NODS some day and do the same
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 1:18:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2020 1:19:46 PM EDT by will-1]
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Originally Posted By Blackhalo:


That can be said for any hobby.

If people can afford and want to LARP with the best shit then who cares? I grew up road racing 2&4 wheels and see guys/friends buying cars and bikes with crazy track potential ... and guess what they'll never see the track. They'll be on their social media, cruising down the highway when the weather is nice and that is it. But I don't look down on them or tell them you need "training", why didn't you buy a beater and sign up for track days? Their money and all that, and I think it's awesome that we Americans have the opportunity to buy cool shit.

I actually like those people as I got some great Trackbikes back in the day from those people for cheap, maybe I can pay it forward with NODS some day and do the same
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As someone who's spent most of my life on bikes and in jeeps & fast cars - GREAT ANALOGY! The good ole, "I'm a real (insert whatever - rider/off-roader/etc) and you're just a poser" lol. Human nature.    

I'll admit that I used to get caught up in that mindset too (especially with Jeeps) but I eventually came around to not being an asshole about it. All of these buyers are great for the industry. Some will stay, some will go, and some will get deep into the hobby.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 1:50:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2020 1:51:18 PM EDT by Blackhalo]
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Originally Posted By will-1:


As someone who's spent most of my life on bikes and in jeeps & fast cars - GREAT ANALOGY! The good ole, "I'm a real (insert whatever - rider/off-roader/etc) and you're just a poser" lol. Human nature.    

I'll admit that I used to get caught up in that mindset too (especially with Jeeps) but I eventually came around to not being an asshole about it. All of these buyers are great for the industry. Some will stay, some will go, and some will get deep into the hobby.
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Heh. There are assholes no matter what. It goes both ways for sure. I've seen my fair share of newbs at the track with high end setups/trailers that have been straight assholes. Almost like they have something to prove, but I still try to be nice and helpful. Most lose the chip on their shoulder fairly quick and warm up, and then I've got a new buddy with nice stuff I can use


Link Posted: 10/15/2020 1:51:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2020 1:52:27 PM EDT by SIASL]
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Originally Posted By will-1:


As someone who's spent most of my life on bikes and in jeeps & fast cars - GREAT ANALOGY! The good ole, "I'm a real (insert whatever - rider/off-roader/etc) and you're just a poser" lol. Human nature.    

I'll admit that I used to get caught up in that mindset too (especially with Jeeps) but I eventually came around to not being an asshole about it. All of these buyers are great for the industry. Some will stay, some will go, and some will get deep into the hobby.
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Originally Posted By will-1:
Originally Posted By Blackhalo:


That can be said for any hobby.

If people can afford and want to LARP with the best shit then who cares? I grew up road racing 2&4 wheels and see guys/friends buying cars and bikes with crazy track potential ... and guess what they'll never see the track. They'll be on their social media, cruising down the highway when the weather is nice and that is it. But I don't look down on them or tell them you need "training", why didn't you buy a beater and sign up for track days? Their money and all that, and I think it's awesome that we Americans have the opportunity to buy cool shit.

I actually like those people as I got some great Trackbikes back in the day from those people for cheap, maybe I can pay it forward with NODS some day and do the same


As someone who's spent most of my life on bikes and in jeeps & fast cars - GREAT ANALOGY! The good ole, "I'm a real (insert whatever - rider/off-roader/etc) and you're just a poser" lol. Human nature.    

I'll admit that I used to get caught up in that mindset too (especially with Jeeps) but I eventually came around to not being an asshole about it. All of these buyers are great for the industry. Some will stay, some will go, and some will get deep into the hobby.

That outlook is what I associate with Mountain Dew Extremism

ETA: To the **Xtreme!!!**
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 2:15:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Blackhalo:


Heh. There are assholes no matter what. It goes both ways for sure. I've seen my fair share of newbs at the track with high end setups/trailers that have been straight assholes. Almost like they have something to prove, but I still try to be nice and helpful. Most lose the chip on their shoulder fairly quick and warm up, and then I've got a new buddy with nice stuff I can use

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Oh yeah. First track day I did I was super cocky but got humbled real quick with a low side in the first corner pretending to be #46. Luckily didn't take me out for the day, lol. Or another time at the drag strip when I drove around the box, backed in, did the burn out in reverse, and then backed up. Staff was screaming at me and I could hear everyone laughing in the stands LOL.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 2:19:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By will-1:


Oh yeah. First track day I did I was super cocky but got humbled real quick with a low side in the first corner pretending to be #46. Luckily didn't take me out for the day, lol. Or another time at the drag strip when I drove around the box, backed in, did the burn out in reverse, and then backed up. Staff was screaming at me and I could hear everyone laughing in the stands LOL.
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Well then! At least you didn’t let the engine bog out trying to power brake...

That’s a little embarrassing in front of a crowd.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 2:25:29 PM EDT
One can always take it further. "Why didnt you join (insert branch) if you want to use that stuff?" And then "Why were you not a part of USASOC?".  I dont feel like training class or service record or whatever count matters, so long as the end user has a proper estimation of their situation. An example is medical. If you have taken a BLS/First Aid course, good on you! Heck, if your parents taught you to call 911, cool! But dont go thinking you're a trauma surgeon. Just know your limits and be realistic and either change them if they don't encompass your wants or needs, or don't.

I'll be the first to admit I have a ton of stuff I cannot use to full potential. Back in the day, I drove a z06 on fair days. Yes, I tracked cars like that in a several day training session GM sent me to, and I learned a lot. Made a tiny scratch I  the surface of it. But tires on a Z were $2200/4. I was content not being a pro, and just enjoying the car casually.

I think it would take a monumental amount of lawyering to actually use NODS in a life or death scenario, as a civilian, that you could justify/wouldn't greatly weaken your case. Casual larping about is likely not gonna get you kilt in the skreetz as a result, imo. It's not in the same league as refusing to shoot your carry piece.

Again, the. 02 of a noob.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 3:18:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2020 3:31:14 PM EDT by Diz]
Good thread.

Well yeah this is arfcom.  If we wuz at socom r us, then yeah, it is understood the focus is on real world applications.  A quick aside, when I first got on line and found all these guys talking shit about tactical stuff I was like oh wow, this is cool, until I realize that the vast majority were not vets talking about their own experiences.  That kinda set me back, like oh wow, who are all these people.  But I'm past that as well, although I still prefer to stick with potential real world use.  However small(?) the possibility.

But my best estimate is the "tactical" community is 90% game and 10% real world.  So while I still keep my original focus, I don't Mike-Foxtrot all the rest, who, as a matter of fact, are paying the freight for the industry.  So rock on with it one time.

The most telling comment here was the idea that we all want to be out-fitted like some JSOC bad-ass on the ground in Shitholistan.  And that is true probably more than most of us want to admit.

Another telling comment was that some have figured out the game and have gotten kit a gen or two back, which fits into their estimate of the situation, where gear may have to be expendable, and/or multiple items are needed.

These two opposing ideas shape the arguments.  When you leave that point where your actual needs are, you are then into gamer country.  Which is fine, as long as you are willing to admit that, at least to yourself.  Where it gets fuzzy is when guys try to justify purchases as a requirement versus a nice to have.  Then we go 'round and 'round and end up at you'll probably never need that.

And again this is strictly speaking as someone prepping for hard times.  All other end-users, carry on.                      

BTW the comments on training are pretty funny, but...

Go to a fucking class.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 6:54:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Diz:
Good thread.

Well yeah this is arfcom.  If we wuz at socom r us, then yeah, it is understood the focus is on real world applications.  A quick aside, when I first got on line and found all these guys talking shit about tactical stuff I was like oh wow, this is cool, until I realize that the vast majority were not vets talking about their own experiences.  That kinda set me back, like oh wow, who are all these people.  But I'm past that as well, although I still prefer to stick with potential real world use.  However small(?) the possibility.

But my best estimate is the "tactical" community is 90% game and 10% real world.  So while I still keep my original focus, I don't Mike-Foxtrot all the rest, who, as a matter of fact, are paying the freight for the industry.  So rock on with it one time.

The most telling comment here was the idea that we all want to be out-fitted like some JSOC bad-ass on the ground in Shitholistan.  And that is true probably more than most of us want to admit.

Another telling comment was that some have figured out the game and have gotten kit a gen or two back, which fits into their estimate of the situation, where gear may have to be expendable, and/or multiple items are needed.

These two opposing ideas shape the arguments.  When you leave that point where your actual needs are, you are then into gamer country.  Which is fine, as long as you are willing to admit that, at least to yourself.  Where it gets fuzzy is when guys try to justify purchases as a requirement versus a nice to have.  Then we go 'round and 'round and end up at you'll probably never need that.

And again this is strictly speaking as someone prepping for hard times.  All other end-users, carry on.                      

BTW the comments on training are pretty funny, but...

Go to a fucking class.
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Go to a fucking class. That just pisses me off. I'm offering to teach those guys some valuable skills and still got told to take a class. I've seen that guy shoot on video and it was mediocre at best. Hell, if that guy were in the same situation as Kyle Rittenhouse, I'm pretty sure he would have gotten his ass smoked. Not saying I'd have done any better at that specific point in time, but that shooting opened my eyes the need for even more training under more extreme pressure.

When I first hooked up with that group, the guy that brought us all together is a solid guy with great skills and so are the rest of them. The one we're talking about sucked all the fun out of it. No matter what information was trying to be put out for mutual support' he'd shit on it. When asked to come up with an alternative plan, he had nothing to offer. I eventually bowed out of the group and let the guy that started our group know why.

When I was deployed, I wasn't some Tier 1 badass and kitted out with $80,000 worth of gear. Shit most of the gear I saw when I was running missions in ETT alongside some of those Tier 1 guys, I would have ditched. I've always felt it was better to be minimal on gear, carry a double basic load, stay light and move quickly. Speed is a security all it's own.

Body armor is great and all and it is heavy. Yeah it covers your vital organs, but it is not the protective force field the Instagram Operators like to believe. What happens if you get shot in the pelvis or abdomen because you couldn't get behind cover quick enough? You're still fucked. Plus in addition to the weight of the plates, guys want to hang another 30lbs of gear off their plate carrier. Fuck that noise. Maybe if I never left the FOB, I'd have some heavy armor if I was on guard duty and was a walking target.

I still run plates just because it's better to have them than the alternative. I have a way to ditch the heavy ass plate carrier and kit and still have reloads. I'd still rather be light and mobile.

Link Posted: 10/15/2020 7:39:53 PM EDT
Ha yeah I hear ya man but that comment is for all the civilians that have never had any training what-so-ever.  

You should be teaching classes.

But yeah I hear ya, if you don't have the big name, nobody gives a shit.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 9:09:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnDough:

I think it would take a monumental amount of lawyering to actually use NODS in a life or death scenario, as a civilian, that you could justify/wouldn't greatly weaken your case. Casual larping about is likely not gonna get you kilt in the skreetz as a result, imo. It's not in the same league as refusing to shoot your carry piece.
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Actually you're half right and half wrong.

You're wrong that buying NVG's is gonna turn you into some SF super soldier. Its not, most of the 300lb dipshits taking classes are there so they can feel good about themselves.

The actual scenario where you use NVG's as civilian IMO is this mythical SHTF event, where you use them to move at night to avoid contact with folks that you don't want to interact with. Thats my GHB and plan. I have to move X miles through a potentially shitty environment, maybe in a blacked out car, possibly on foot. At no point does it involve doing derring doo-doo and 1 man swat raids against hot looking damsels in distress like you read about in the jerk-off "prepper" literature.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 10:12:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2020 10:12:45 PM EDT by JohnDough]
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin:


Actually you're half right and half wrong.

You're wrong that buying NVG's is gonna turn you into some SF super soldier. Its not, most of the 300lb dipshits taking classes are there so they can feel good about themselves.

The actual scenario where you use NVG's as civilian IMO is this mythical SHTF event, where you use them to move at night to avoid contact with folks that you don't want to interact with. Thats my GHB and plan. I have to move X miles through a potentially shitty environment, maybe in a blacked out car, possibly on foot. At no point does it involve doing derring doo-doo and 1 man swat raids against hot looking damsels in distress like you read about in the jerk-off "prepper" literature.
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Running on the regular is so much cheaper and such a better idea for survival SHTF when all the diabetes meds are gone, though, as far as many "preppers" are concerned.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 10:21:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2020 11:26:06 PM EDT by will-1]
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin:


Actually you're half right and half wrong.

You're wrong that buying NVG's is gonna turn you into some SF super soldier. Its not, most of the 300lb dipshits taking classes are there so they can feel good about themselves.

The actual scenario where you use NVG's as civilian IMO is this mythical SHTF event, where you use them to move at night to avoid contact with folks that you don't want to interact with. Thats my GHB and plan. I have to move X miles through a potentially shitty environment, maybe in a blacked out car, possibly on foot. At no point does it involve doing derring doo-doo and 1 man swat raids against hot looking damsels in distress like you read about in the jerk-off "prepper" literature.
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+1 on figuring out realistic situations specific to you and how you’ll most likely be using your gear including night vision and train / practice accordingly. I’m no expert whatsoever and just do what I think is best for my situation.

In my situation we live in literally BFE. I’m not going to be doing the same stuff as people in populated areas. I focus mainly on moving as quickly & quietly as possible, knowing the land around me like the back of my hand, and using the terrain to my advantage day or night. Relying on NV only matters if whatever hypothetical situation happens is at night. All of that expensive NV stuff won’t mean squat if it’s daytime.

We focus on two likely situations (in hypothetical SHTF).

1. We are stuck inside the house because people surprised us. That means either defending from inside or fighting our way out to either try to gain the advantage or to escape.

2. We hear people coming and have time to get outside and set up in one of our hides where can observe. If it’s bad we split. If we can handle it then we take care of business. If we need to split that means hiking quietly & efficiently. You can’t hide because it’ll be obvious that you just ran out and they could start looking for you.

This is a big reason I love hiking off trail with and without NV. When we lived in a big city we’d get up early and time our hikes to get out under NV and head back when the sun came up with our gear in our packs. It’s easier now that we can go whenever we want without driving but it loses its luster because it was fun before when we made a trip out of it. It’s a lot of fun and I highly recommend trying it. It’s also a great way to get your pack sorted.

The hypothetical gotta run the hell out of the house and boogie situation is one reason I like dual -14’s on a QD bridge. If we gotta split out of the house without time to grab helmets, etc. we can take just the -14’s and stick them in a jacket or backpack.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 10:29:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin:


Actually you're half right and half wrong.

You're wrong that buying NVG's is gonna turn you into some SF super soldier. Its not, most of the 300lb dipshits taking classes are there so they can feel good about themselves.

The actual scenario where you use NVG's as civilian IMO is this mythical SHTF event, where you use them to move at night to avoid contact with folks that you don't want to interact with. Thats my GHB and plan. I have to move X miles through a potentially shitty environment, maybe in a blacked out car, possibly on foot. At no point does it involve doing derring doo-doo and 1 man swat raids against hot looking damsels in distress like you read about in the jerk-off "prepper" literature.
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My night vision has come in very handy in the past. The ability to stand in the shadows, invisible to everyone and observe like it's daytime is an invaluable ability to have.

I've had to do that a few times to assess situations. Is it a burglar, someone breaking into cars or a neighbor being an asshole banging on shit in his garage at 3am.

My night vision in a SHTF event is pretty much going to be used for avoiding shit and people I don't want to deal with unless absolutely necessary. The best fight is no fight at all. Most of the time it's best to hunker down and let them move on.

Don't get me wrong, I have the ability to effectively fight at night with LAMs on my pistols and rifles. I'm pretty decent at engaging targets at night, but I'd prefer not to if at all possible.

As far as using those tools to engage someone at night in a not-SHTF situation, you'd probably not win that legal battle.
Link Posted: 10/15/2020 11:03:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Diz:
Good thread.

Another telling comment was that some have figured out the game and have gotten kit a gen or two back, which fits into their estimate of the situation, where gear may have to be expendable, and/or multiple items are needed.

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This is pretty accurate for so many reasons - for example if you travel internationally, to carry out various work related functions, then in many circumstances ITAR can come into play.  This leaves options like sub 1400 FOM units and or the much less obvious SIOnyx aurora.  Likewise know your thermals (definitely leave at home unless on government related contract and are carrying your end user agreement) and lasers, equally IR torches especially anything above 850nm wavelength.  

In fact there are places I would take the SIOnyx over anything else, particularly if you are conducting a solo or two man review of a remote site - you can clearly demonstrate its a video camera and it looks like a video camera.  

In civvy land its all about de-escalation and disengagement, if you end up in a peacock situation then you either know what to do or you don't.  Personally I consider NOD use in an engagement an extreme end - member scenario for most (non-active duty/non-leo).  

Training to be effective is great (at most endeavours) but training in how to de-escalate and disengage from a tricky situation is equally valuable.  

Horses for courses and grey is better than Gucci..........
Link Posted: 10/16/2020 10:10:08 AM EDT
Yeah and herin lies the rub.  In times past, talking about pure civilian use of this stuff, was pretty much a stretch.  Although these days I would submit that might be rapidly changing.  But even now, I agree, your most likely sceanrio is probably E&E to get somewhere else, not to "save the day" in an active shooter event.  Although again that is now in the realm of possibility, however remote.

And yeah, "contract" work might be a gray area that some of us find ourselves in.  Especially international travel and all that.  I have a few friends in various countires, as many of us do, and it does change what you might carry. Especially if you have to ditch everything to cross a border.        

On training.  I didn't expect this to be such a contentous issue.  Although there is much BS involved, as anything else, my point being is that we should all be getting regular sustainment training, regardless of past experience or skill.  Ideally we would all be doing an annual training schedule, where all your skill sets are being constantly honed.  It is not a slight in my mind to suggest someone, anyone, should go train.  This should just be a continous process, IMHO.  The concept of it being a slight to suggest training under someone else is just a distractor.  The point being, get past all that crap, and go train.  If personalities or what-not are getting in the way, go somewhere else.  

Back to NODs.  The question is: what do you really need to perform your mission, whatever that might be.  And this thread has been a breath of fresh air in that regard.  The downside of such a broad base, as we have here, is the dillution of purpose.  You get into the high-end, technical aspects of it, purely as an end unto itself, which clouds the issue.  It has been refreshing to see guys like me that don't have state of the art, but then again realize that for our purposes, it may not be required.  

But how does the new guy figure this out, without going through the whole process as we have done.  Forums like this can help, although you walk a fine line.  Vendors pay a lot of money to be here, and you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you, but you also want to know the difference, if any, between what they're selling you, and what you really need.  And that's not a dig on them; they are merely doing what they need to do, to be a sucessful business.  And from what I've seen, they do make the effort to educate the public, especially if you get off your ass and attend a class.  You can rent all sorts of gear and see for yourself.  And truth be told, a lot of us like to be up-sold.  That's part of their job, and you have to be the decision-maker there.    

I like these new intitiatives, where guys are having competitions, and NV is being incorporated into that.  Another great way to see and try out this stuff.      
Link Posted: 10/16/2020 12:43:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Diz:
Yeah and herin lies the rub.  In times past, talking about pure civilian use of this stuff, was pretty much a stretch.  Although these days I would submit that might be rapidly changing.  But even now, I agree, your most likely sceanrio is probably E&E to get somewhere else, not to "save the day" in an active shooter event.  Although again that is now in the realm of possibility, however remote.

And yeah, "contract" work might be a gray area that some of us find ourselves in.  Especially international travel and all that.  I have a few friends in various countires, as many of us do, and it does change what you might carry. Especially if you have to ditch everything to cross a border.        

On training.  I didn't expect this to be such a contentous issue.  Although there is much BS involved, as anything else, my point being is that we should all be getting regular sustainment training, regardless of past experience or skill.  Ideally we would all be doing an annual training schedule, where all your skill sets are being constantly honed.  It is not a slight in my mind to suggest someone, anyone, should go train.  This should just be a continous process, IMHO.  The concept of it being a slight to suggest training under someone else is just a distractor.  The point being, get past all that crap, and go train.  If personalities or what-not are getting in the way, go somewhere else.  

Back to NODs.  The question is: what do you really need to perform your mission, whatever that might be.  And this thread has been a breath of fresh air in that regard.  The downside of such a broad base, as we have here, is the dillution of purpose.  You get into the high-end, technical aspects of it, purely as an end unto itself, which clouds the issue.  It has been refreshing to see guys like me that don't have state of the art, but then again realize that for our purposes, it may not be required.  

But how does the new guy figure this out, without going through the whole process as we have done.  Forums like this can help, although you walk a fine line.  Vendors pay a lot of money to be here, and you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you, but you also want to know the difference, if any, between what they're selling you, and what you really need.  And that's not a dig on them; they are merely doing what they need to do, to be a sucessful business.  And from what I've seen, they do make the effort to educate the public, especially if you get off your ass and attend a class.  You can rent all sorts of gear and see for yourself.  And truth be told, a lot of us like to be up-sold.  That's part of their job, and you have to be the decision-maker there.    

I like these new intitiatives, where guys are having competitions, and NV is being incorporated into that.  Another great way to see and try out this stuff.      
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+1
People will be better off being 100% realistic about what their requirements are and go from there.

To be clear, the stuff I mentioned about defending our property, etc. is what "could" happen. Hell, anything "could" happen, lol. The most likely threats we focus on are things like wildfires, etc.

It doesn't drive everything I do regarding NV so I focus on my gear mainly for fun & enjoyment while making sure it checks the boxes I need for the most likely situations that "could" happen. The hypothetical situation of bushwacking it on foot on a dark ass night using zero IR, etc. is one of the reasons I prefer higher performing tubes but more importantly it's something I like to do.

I guess what I'm saying is don't get yourself lost in the SHTF rabbit hole.
Link Posted: 10/16/2020 1:05:50 PM EDT
I'm a newb with a PVS-14.

I purchased a Matbock Tarsier Eclipse. I discovered that the back lip of it slightly obstructed the built in IR light on my PVS14 (Carson body).  The slight obstruction blocked the IR light such that from about 1pm to 3pm position it was darker than the rest of my image.   So, that was interesting. Great device though, works awesome outdoors under good conditions, and offers some nice protection.  Not knocking the device at all, but nobody else had brought up that little tid bid in the reviews I've read and seen.  Just one of those things you have to learn on your own.

Also, it takes practice just to be able to take the PVS14 out of a pouch and put on your helmet while wearing the helmet, but I will say once you do it enough it gets better. The other thing that takes practice is clipping my Wilcox lanyard onto the PVS14 once I have it on my helmet.  

Also, maybe it's just me, but outdoors my depth perception issue doesn't seem nearly as bad as it is indoors. I can move around just fine outdoors, but when I get indoors I have to really be conscious of my lack of depth perception.  

If you get night vision plan on just doing mundane and normal stuff with it out in your backyard at night and indoors around your house just to get used to it. I think I'm going to want to take it out for a night hike soon in order to get some time with it outdoors in the woods at night.  I'm going to want to get used to it under these normal unarmed conditions before I start doing anything with it at a night vision course. I still haven't tried it on with my Gas Mask yet either so that's another item I have to try it out with.  

Link Posted: 10/16/2020 1:25:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/16/2020 1:26:21 PM EDT by KaerMorhenResident]
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Originally Posted By will-1:


+1
People will be better off being 100% realistic about what their requirements are and go from there.
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Absolutely, well said. Be well rounded too. If you want to be prepared for a situation there is a lot more to it than just night vision.  Plus, remember you can always upgrade and most do.  Besides, a guy with a PVS14 gen 3 device is still in a small minority of people in the USA.  Don't get caught up in the "I have to have duals" thing to the point where you're excluding or significantly delaying other important purchases or good financial preps.
Link Posted: 10/16/2020 1:26:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By wjoutlaw:

As far as using those tools to engage someone at night in a not-SHTF situation, you'd probably not win that legal battle.
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I mean unless you are talking about the end of civilization, your number 1 use of NV should be to avoid those situations. That being said, plenty of dudes hunt at night with it. So not everyone is tacticool tommy. And really I don't care one way or the other if people take classes, at least they have more of a clue than they did before about how to properly employ the tools. But I do question some peoples motivations in those regards.

Link Posted: 10/16/2020 1:52:19 PM EDT
Well I'm sure there are plenty of guys that just like to play dress-up on the square range, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as we aren't kidding ourselves about what is going on.  Lots of these places line you up at 5-7 m and blast away all day.  Which is a great ego-stroke but not really accomplishing much.  Yes, you can look down your nose at them if you wish but they drive the industry gravy train.   Which may or may not concern you.  

I suppose you could loosely call that training.  I would call that fam-fire at best, entertainment at worst.  So I guess it comes down to what we consider training.  The missing link, IMHO, is the follow-on training you do with your mates once you've attended a formal class.  That's were the reps get burned in.

And yeah that is a good point about NV being both a hobby, and a serious tool when required.
Link Posted: 10/16/2020 2:02:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By will-1:


Oh yeah. First track day I did I was super cocky but got humbled real quick with a low side in the first corner pretending to be #46.
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'The Doctor' Valentino Rossi?

WERA National Endurance Series - The 90's
Link Posted: 10/16/2020 2:05:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mickdonaldson:


'The Doctor' Valentino Rossi?

WERA National Endurance Series - The 90's
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You know it

If it's any indication, our last dog before our current GSD was a gigantic American Akita and his name was Rossi
Link Posted: 10/16/2020 2:21:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Harlikwin:

That being said, plenty of dudes hunt at night with it. So not everyone is tacticool tommy.

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Yup. Hunters are probably, per capita, the most experienced NV users out there - they live, eat, and breathe that sh*t, and do it as much as possible. The Texas Hog guys are off the chain. The second group (not saying anything about skill levels) are the Airsoft guys - force on force - gear is cheap (baseline guns are what, $200?), ammo is pennies, and anywhere can be a training area. "We" generally need to pay max bucks to go force on force with Sims or UTM at a course (unless just 'going airsoft') = less time doing it. Even NV flat range stuff takes planning (location/noise, safety) and money for much more expensive ammo.
Link Posted: 10/16/2020 2:24:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By will-1:


You know it

If it's any indication, our last dog before our current GSD was a gigantic American Akita and his name was Rossi
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Nice! I'm a bit older - I'm the Gardner/Doohan/Schwantz/Rainey generation, although I kept up until they pulled it all off TV (Speed Vision).
Link Posted: 10/18/2020 1:11:43 PM EDT
It's funny but all my "hobbies" have always been tied to a tactical purpose: either jumping, diving, climbing, etc.  I suppose "mobility" would qualify for you guys as well.  

We have been discussing the "levels" of NV performance here, and in the past, we've seen various opinions on this, and some good comments here as well.  Someone will always show up here with what kind of NV can I get for 500 bucks, and the responses will show up, and their conclusion being something is better than nothing.  Then you have guys with decent gen II stuff.  Then you have guys with decent gen III stuff.  Then you have guys with really good gen III stuff, which here shortly may well be called gen IV stuff.  

I think Clasky attempted to set some kind of minimum std, at least for LEO work, with his excellent monograph on the subject.  With his conclusion being good gen III is a minimum std.  Although dated, I think his conclusion still stands, even though time (and performance) has moved on.  It's a matter of whether just the minimum std will work for you or if something better (or possibly lower performance) is required.

To the OP, what I have learned:

Something is probably better than nothing.  You fight with what you have.  Upgrade as possible.  

Gen I, and most gen II will need active IR.  Not to mention a laser pointer.  

Gen III of at least Omni V, and the newer gen II "+" are the minimum std for use without illum.  Also with illum, and laser pointer.  Or passive.  

Gen III "+" as it were, really good passive, especially in really low light, plus illum and pointer.  

Mono is better than nothing.  May even work better in some circumstances.  

Bino is usually preferred.  Depth perception.  Easier passive viewing.  Better at dynamic, moving engagements.

Green Phosphor still works just fine.  

White Phosphor is supposedly better, especially for extended use.  

Thin-filmed still works fine.

"Un-filmed"/Filmless" is probably superior.

US-made NV still rules the roost.  But foreign NV continues to improve and challenge.

Vendors are here to make money.  They also want to help educate you about NV.  Ideally these two overlap.

Vendors are also in competition with each other.  This can add friction and confusion to the issue.  

You have to sort through it all and find the little nuggets here and there.  

We are still lucky to have access to a forum like this and to purchase NV equipment.
Link Posted: 10/18/2020 2:58:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2020 2:58:53 PM EDT by Harlikwin]
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Originally Posted By Diz:


To the OP, what I have learned:

Something is probably better than nothing.  You fight with what you have.  Upgrade as possible.  

Gen I, and most gen II will need active IR.  Not to mention a laser pointer.  

Gen III of at least Omni V, and the newer gen II "+" are the minimum std for use without illum.  Also with illum, and laser pointer.  Or passive.  
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I agree with like 90% of what you said. Aside the ilum comments.

The issue with it is context. If you are talking about really low light conditions, then yes Gen2 will certainly need help. But if there is some moon out, you are likely fine (and in my neck of the woods thats usually the case). Or if you are near civilization with sky glow, you are again likely fine. Plus the spectral "matching" of illumination of Gen2 vs Gen3 is worth noting. So basically most visible light will help gen2 (i.e. moonlight/skyglow) whereas stuff more in the IR will help Gen3 more (i.e. starlight). But really even OG gen2 PVS-5's were specced to work down to visible starlight conditions (no moon) and if they are relatively new tubes, they do just that.

The other thing to consider is how much wear and tear that old tube has on it. I've seen the spectrum of PVS-5's with basically new old stock tubes, that worked great, and still do for me. All the way to the third tier 90's rebuilds using used up surplus tubes that, lets be generous in saying weren't/aren't very good. Or even "new" ITT tubes in crap units like the old night mariners/enforcer whatever they were called. So there is alot of variables as to the "minimum" needed.

IMO the main thing you are paying for with Gen2 is generally decent gain, and a non-distorted image compared to gen1 devices. And really thats why I consider a decent gen2 the bare minimum for most people for use under most conditions and use cases, which do vary quite a bit. Of course you're gonna do better with gen3 or higher end gen3 so if you can afford it go that way.
Link Posted: 10/18/2020 8:07:22 PM EDT
Yeah two good points here.  First gen II was a quantum leap forward from gen I.  I thought that "starlight scope" wasn't worth the weight of humping it through the bush.  Fun novelty though.  Out on the boat dock with a case of beer on a full moon night.  Some gen II  stuff IS highly under-rated.  The good stuff was perhaps just separated from the next gen by a significantly shorter MTTF (maybe more on that later?).  

Then there is price.  Yes indeed, IF you can afford it, then get the bloody gen III stuff.    

Link Posted: 10/18/2020 9:57:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Diz:
Yeah two good points here.  First gen II was a quantum leap forward from gen I.  I thought that "starlight scope" wasn't worth the weight of humping it through the bush.  Fun novelty though.  Out on the boat dock with a case of beer on a full moon night.  Some gen II  stuff IS highly under-rated.  The good stuff was perhaps just separated from the next gen by a significantly shorter MTTF (maybe more on that later?).  

Then there is price.  Yes indeed, IF you can afford it, then get the bloody gen III stuff.    

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Yup agreed. Though really some gen1 stuff was pretty underrated, the PVS-2 was kinda shit compared to the Euro and even later russian gen1 though.

Link Posted: 10/19/2020 7:55:58 AM EDT
You mean our lowest bidder didn't beat out the commies?  Scandalous.

Here's another thing.  What about MTTF?  What is it on the newer Photonis stuff?  Is it closer to legacy gen II or gen III?  

And the larger question: if 10K MTTF on gen III is something most folks will never see, then is shorter MTTF on gen II really an issue?  I used to think why would you buy gen II when the tube life is so much shorter.  But much like a lot of other gear, did it become obsolete before it wore out, and is now a good deal, if you don't have to stay in fashion?  

Link Posted: 10/19/2020 1:35:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2020 1:37:30 PM EDT by KaerMorhenResident]
We should all take a minute to thank Elbit for their amazing GEN III XLS tubes, which now put Gen III night vision into the realm of possibility for a lot of folks that may have been on the fence.

2020 has motivated a lot of people to finally get into Night Vision.  This increase of users will hopefully translate into more courses being offered in more states. Since the shift in the firearms industry from hunting to tactical we've slowly seen some firearms ranges become places where you can do more than bench rest a hunting rifle.  Perhaps, in time we'll see firearms ranges that will cater to night vision folks?  One can dream anyways right?

The biggest hurdle for night vision guys is finding a place to use their night vision in conjunction with their firearms.  Courses are awesome, but being able to reinforce what you've learned with follow-up practice would be more ideal.  My entry into night vision combined with the rising costs of ammunition (fire 2 rounds and there goes a $1) has led me to taking a harder and serious look at things like Airsoft guns and MILSIM events just to get some more experience with night vision.  

I'm also  hoping that all the civilian night vision consumption in 2020 is not going unnoticed by the industry. Would be nice for example if L3 said "huh, maybe we should do a civilian version of our NGAL in 2021?"
Link Posted: 10/19/2020 2:17:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident:
We should all take a minute to thank Elbit for their amazing GEN III XLS tubes, which now put Gen III night vision into the realm of possibility for a lot of folks that may have been on the fence.

2020 has motivated a lot of people to finally get into Night Vision.  This increase of users will hopefully translate into more courses being offered in more states. Since the shift in the firearms industry from hunting to tactical we've slowly seen some firearms ranges become places where you can do more than bench rest a hunting rifle.  Perhaps, in time we'll see firearms ranges that will cater to night vision folks?  One can dream anyways right?

The biggest hurdle for night vision guys is finding a place to use their night vision in conjunction with their firearms.  Courses are awesome, but being able to reinforce what you've learned with follow-up practice would be more ideal.  My entry into night vision combined with the rising costs of ammunition (fire 2 rounds and there goes a $1) has led me to taking a harder and serious look at things like Airsoft guns and MILSIM events just to get some more experience with night vision.  

I'm also  hoping that all the civilian night vision consumption in 2020 is not going unnoticed by the industry. Would be nice for example if L3 said "huh, maybe we should do a civilian version of our NGAL in 2021?"
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I agree 2020 has been nuts for nvg industry growth on the civ side.

Elbit has brought gen3 wp to the masses but there has been cheap gp gen3 for a while now. Those prices haven't dropped..

Civilian ngal? No thanks lol that sounds like an l3 version of the holosun 321g for 4k lol
Link Posted: 10/20/2020 9:57:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2020 9:57:46 AM EDT by Diz]
Well OK if we want to thank the corporate ding-dongs for selling us their mil-spec fall-outs; but that has been going on, in one form or the other, for a long time.  But to your point, sure, this has allowed many others access to NV.  

On LAMs; I prefer a Perst-3; in a way, what you want is already out there.  Of course, opinions vary.  

On the current market, well, yes, this has been the biggest bubble in history.  How the training market responds is anybody's guess.  But I would bet cans are gonna become a requirement for late-night work.
Link Posted: 10/20/2020 10:24:30 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident:

The biggest hurdle for night vision guys is finding a place to use their night vision in conjunction with their firearms.  Courses are awesome, but being able to reinforce what you've learned with follow-up practice would be more ideal.  My entry into night vision combined with the rising costs of ammunition (fire 2 rounds and there goes a $1) has led me to taking a harder and serious look at things like Airsoft guns and MILSIM events just to get some more experience with night vision.  
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I had the same conversation with myself a couple weeks ago and this was my solution to NVD training until I'm proficient enough to switch to the real deal.

Glock 19 BB

DPMS SBR BB

Shout out to NightWalker for his YouTube video.
Link Posted: 10/20/2020 4:38:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/20/2020 10:24:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lowdown3:



There is an actual airsoft version (plastic airsoft BBs) of the Glock you can find at Airsoft Atlanta. We use those for force on force training a lot. Steel BBs are frowned upon for FOF training. Also the mag looks more like a standard Glock mag as well. They are about $50. more than the one you listed, but it would probably be better bet long term- you could take this other one to FOF classes later if you decide to do that sort of training.

Ditto with the gas powered airsofts from KWA, the "professional training" guns. They operate, feel and weigh the same as your AR, AK, etc. magazines feed both the gas and the airsoft BBs and the mags hold around 40 rounds- so no 400 round hollywood magazine non sense- you have to actually change magazines, etc. We have about 8 of these for FOF and gun combatives classes and haven't seen any failures on them.
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Already own Glock green gas airsofts and Glock 17 simmunition FOF trainers.  The BB guns are cheaper alternative to my 22LR trainers and don’t require bullet traps & berms.  Paper silhouette targets on black fiberboard with plywood backer stop the BBs just fine and won’t get a visit from PD for nighttime noise ordinance complaints.  


Link Posted: 10/20/2020 11:30:18 PM EDT
I’m suddenly interested in NVGs since I sold my motorcycle last week, and this thread is relevant to my interests. There is a nice set of PVS-7s in the EE that appeals to me, but the only person I know who personally owns NODs uses 7s due to extreme vertigo when using a 14 as a monocular.

Link Posted: 10/21/2020 8:32:08 AM EDT
Ha methinks there's been a lot of that going on these days.  

Yeah, airsoft is a viable training tool, IF you do it right.  It's actually a good solution to training in denied areas, where they don't want any of those dang militias running around.  In fact, probably 90% of your training could be be done with airsoft, and probably should.  It's just that most guys never get off the square range and do it.  

FOF can be done safely and without the expense of "professional" grade marker rounds.  Long patrols can be done, in shitty circumstances, and no hours of weapon's cleaning after exercise.  Rangers won't shit a brick when they stumble over you in the forest.  And in this case, you can get some time under NV before you shoot yourself in the dick.  Happy days.
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 8:36:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/21/2020 8:40:20 AM EDT by mickdonaldson]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident:

The biggest hurdle for night vision guys is finding a place to use their night vision in conjunction with their firearms.  Courses are awesome, but being able to reinforce what you've learned with follow-up practice would be more ideal.  
View Quote


You obviously need *some* land, and no state/local ordinances against, but the best thing I did was get a Can, build a .300BO upper, and get a crap ton of Subs. I'm 400 feet away from one guy (Biden supporter as it turns out, ugh), and about 480 from the other guy. I don't know what a Rugged Razor sounds like at 400ft, but zero complaints. I don't stay out there for hours, but with some planning, get in some decent work - and not a ton of ammo consumed.  I did it all by hand with a chain saw, shovel and sand bags - but worth it.


Link Posted: 10/21/2020 9:34:56 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By mickdonaldson:


You obviously need *some* land, and no state/local ordinances against, but the best thing I did was get a Can, build a .300BO upper, and get a crap ton of Subs. I'm 400 feet away from one guy (Biden supporter as it turns out, ugh), and about 480 from the other guy. I don't know what a Rugged Razor sounds like at 400ft, but zero complaints. I don't stay out there for hours, but with some planning, get in some decent work - and not a ton of ammo consumed.  I did it all by hand with a chain saw, shovel and sand bags - but worth it.

https://i.imgur.com/u0lj2jg.jpg
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Yep, suppressed 22 and 9mm works great for keeping the "neighbors" happy when shooting at night. I shot a mag through my tx22 from my bedroom window last night and nobody notices. Loudest part if hitting the steel. My 9mm ar15 is mostly used at night unless I'm showing it off to somebody

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 9:57:36 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish:


Yep, suppressed 22 and 9mm works great for keeping the "neighbors" happy when shooting at night. I shot a mag through my tx22 from my bedroom window last night and nobody notices. Loudest part if hitting the steel. My 9mm ar15 is mostly used at night unless I'm showing it off to somebody

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/488159/20201008_194053_jpg-1646505.JPG
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9mm Can is next, no doubt about it. Then a CMMG Upper - stupid virus
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 10:55:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 2:20:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lowdown3:



Nice!
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Thanks for the referral on the airsoft rifles - sounds like a cheaper alternative than going with sim conversions.  BKR
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 3:23:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 4:40:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish:


Yep, suppressed 22 and 9mm works great for keeping the "neighbors" happy when shooting at night. I shot a mag through my tx22 from my bedroom window last night and nobody notices. Loudest part if hitting the steel. My 9mm ar15 is mostly used at night unless I'm showing it off to somebody

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/488159/20201008_194053_jpg-1646505.JPG
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By SGT-Fish:
Originally Posted By mickdonaldson:


You obviously need *some* land, and no state/local ordinances against, but the best thing I did was get a Can, build a .300BO upper, and get a crap ton of Subs. I'm 400 feet away from one guy (Biden supporter as it turns out, ugh), and about 480 from the other guy. I don't know what a Rugged Razor sounds like at 400ft, but zero complaints. I don't stay out there for hours, but with some planning, get in some decent work - and not a ton of ammo consumed.  I did it all by hand with a chain saw, shovel and sand bags - but worth it.

https://i.imgur.com/u0lj2jg.jpg


Yep, suppressed 22 and 9mm works great for keeping the "neighbors" happy when shooting at night. I shot a mag through my tx22 from my bedroom window last night and nobody notices. Loudest part if hitting the steel. My 9mm ar15 is mostly used at night unless I'm showing it off to somebody

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/488159/20201008_194053_jpg-1646505.JPG



@SGT-Fish


I have a TX22 and my aac prodigy lives on it


very fun gun


What light/laser is that?
Link Posted: 10/21/2020 8:26:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kbi:



@SGT-Fish


I have a TX22 and my aac prodigy lives on it


very fun gun


What light/laser is that?
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Its the tlr-vir2. My wife got it for me along with the gun. Originally I was planning on keeping it on my glock or 9mm ar15. But I just shoot the tx22 so much and keep it handy for pests that it has stayed on it. I may swap it later if I get a cheaper Chinese pistol laser from ebay. The light cost more than the gun
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