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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 6/8/2002 5:41:47 PM EDT
Question to NightHawk and others,

You said the government already knows what guns you have. I'm not doubting your statement, but how do they know that??

I know that when a purchase is made through a store, that store must retain a record. But how would the government know that record exists unless they went to each store and examined the files. Do they do that for every gunstore and keep files on all of us?

Rob
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 6:57:30 PM EDT
Yes. They bring their own xerox machines.

Ever heard of Operation Forward Trace? Supposedly to test the system, to make sure tracing works, yada yada. What they do in reality is go to the manufacturer of guns they do not like, for example Ruger re the Mini-14, or DPMS, or Armalite, etc. They get a list of guns made, where shipped to. Then they go to those distributors, do the same. And from there, to the stores. And they see who those guns were sold to, of course, to make sure they did not fall into criminal hand. After all, they are criminal type guns. And they copy the 4473's and Bound Book at the store.

Then they go back to the office, and eventually all those copies are fed into scanners, despite being ordered not to by the Congress, as it is illegal for the ATF to make a registration list. But they do it anyway.

And now there is this huge database, which they share with anti-gun local governments, such as Chicago... so they can cross reference FOID cards with 4473's, etc, and see who has bad guns.

So, just because you are paranoid it does not mean they are not out to get you.
Link Posted: 6/8/2002 9:07:28 PM EDT
That's interesting.

I'm surprised that this happens and that more people don't respond to this thread. Gun registration is something every gun owner should be against, and if it is going on right now, why aren't more people outraged and why doesn't the NRA make this occurrence more known?

A_Free_Man - I'm not questioning what you said, but can the BATF really check everywhere? Do they just hit a few stores doing or do they extensively?

Rob
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 12:07:58 AM EDT
Who do you reckon gets the bound books when a shop goes out of business?

Scott

Link Posted: 6/9/2002 12:45:11 AM EDT
Heck if the state of oregon can create a data base for weapons bought, then the ATF can also.

In the state of Oregon, for every gun purchased wether it is a long gun, or hand gun, that purchase is entered into a database and is held for 5 years. Supposedly when 5 years is up they are supposed to dump you out of the database. YA Right!

Just a little information: In Oregon there is no gunshow loophole either. Every FFl Dealer, Or private party sale, has to have NICS, and Oregon state background check done before transfer of firearm, Oregon's background check consists of a check with the Oregon State Police data base,Oregon Mental Health Data Base,and the Oregon Criminal Database, this has been the law for I think 3-4 years know, and for private party sales, the firearm has to be checked through the oregon state database to make sure the firearm is not stolen, hmm wonder how they got the serial numbers to track a stolen firearm. Serial number DATA Base that is how, contributed not only through firearm's sales, but from people who give there serial numbers to the law enforcement when they report the firearm stolen. So private party sales are traceable in the State of oregon.

So basically the FEDS and state officials know what kind of firearms people have.

There are already Data bases on the State level. I would not put it past the feds if there is already a federal database.

Do you or should we really trust the government not to have a database already?

I think most can answer that one realistically!

Since when have politicians told the truth,and
have some moral integrity?

Be ready for 2004 for Hilary to be in office, because the way Mr. Bush is going, he is going to burn just about every bridge that got him elected into office.

The questioning of weather the Assault weapons ban sunsetting will be the least of our worries if a democrat gets into office in 2004!

Data Bases you bet are in full operation, the feds just wont admit to it, because it would be illegal.


Link Posted: 6/9/2002 1:02:16 AM EDT
In Colorado, when you purchase a firearm, you must fill out the yellow form for the background check. I believe it is a federal form. After the background check, the dealer keeps the form on file. Colorado has a law against firearm registration, so when they call in for the background check, they state either long gun or hand gun.

I have purchased 3 Imble FAL receivers from a local shop and the owner is a friend. I have asked him if he is ever required to turn over his forms to the feds (BATF or FBI). He told me that in 10 years of doing business, he has never been asked to do so, but that he understood that they have the right to ask for copies of them at any time.

He also verified that if he were to go out of business that he is required to turn the forms over to the Feds.

I do not think that this would be considered firearm registration, but it sounded like the BATF & FBI have a pretty good handle on who owns what, even in Colorado where registration is "supposedly" illegal.

For what it's worth!!
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 1:23:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DScottHewitt:
Who do you reckon gets the bound books when a shop goes out of business?

Scott




Exactly. My local dealer told me that all gunshops hold their Form #4473's until they go out of business, then they turn them over to the BATF.

If they really want to trace a firearm, they damn sure can. They start at the manufacturer, then through the distributor, then through the shop that sold it to the public. Then they will find out who that person sold it to, and check with the rest of the people on down the line until they come to the firearm.
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 1:30:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/9/2002 1:35:13 PM EDT by schapman43]
I'm not at liberty to say how I know but take my word for it, they do and its been proven to me.

Edited because I dont care

There was an ivestigation into a stolen firearm and someone I know knew about it. I'm the only person that this person knows that owns a decent number of firearms. The ATF questioned him about me and mentioned specificly some of the firearms that I own. They went as far as mentioning some of the accessories that I have ordered for them. Only way they would have known about the accessories is if they tapped my phone or watched my checking account. I was less than impressed as you can imaging. So I hope you all learn a little something hear. It doesnt matter if you've done something wrong or not. They know what you have, believe me!
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 2:56:02 PM EDT
Sooo, all those guns I have bought from buddies and such...no paperwork, no paper trail. Well, unless they 'squeal'. Did I say 'all those'? Uh, I meant 'that one gun'.

ByteTheBullet (-:
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 5:26:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By robtheman:
Question to NightHawk and others,

You said the government already knows what guns you have. I'm not doubting your statement, but how do they know that??

I know that when a purchase is made through a store, that store must retain a record. But how would the government know that record exists unless they went to each store and examined the files. Do they do that for every gunstore and keep files on all of us?

Rob



See this one:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=123263
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 10:38:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MinuteMan3:

Just a little information: In Oregon there is no gunshow loophole either. Every FFl Dealer, Or private party sale, has to have NICS, and Oregon state background check done before transfer of firearm, Oregon's background check consists of a check with the Oregon State Police data base,Oregon Mental Health Data Base,and the Oregon Criminal Database, this has been the law for I think 3-4 years know, and for private party sales,





WRONG


Private Party sales require NOTHING. That is right - NOTHING.

If you acquire it or sell it - no records of any kind need be kept and more importantly no information needs to be provided to the State. Although if you are buying from an unknown seller I would get a bill of sale such that can not claim theft.

Don't believe it? Call OSP. Some of us will not buy unless it is through private party sales.

Link Posted: 6/10/2002 1:48:44 PM EDT
I will agree with schapman43. It gets a little harder if you pay with cash. Then they have to go searching. HAs soon as you yse a credit card for a gun shop or a sporting good store that sells guns you are in the system. I use only one credit card for gun and other firearm related things.

I know that these are flagged and checked. I know one of the guys who job it is to do that. Now 99% of us have nothing to worry about. I know I am going to get FLAMED for this.

What is the big deal if they know who you are. If they want to know where that firearm went they could find out.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 1:59:48 PM EDT
Schapman43 - so since the cat is outta the bag with big brother - what weapon is it that they were so interested in?

Was it class 3? Or was it something that many of us here would likely have?

Thank you
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 2:53:39 PM EDT
The feds can't keep track of known terrorists who get drivers licenses, credit cards, etc. all under their real name. I'm to believe that they are associating all of this *paper* all over the country together secretly with no apparent purpose?

The UPS who may one day get tired of lugging my ammo around I'm worried about... the feds... they're too busy getting their priorities readjusted.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 5:14:54 PM EDT
Six your right but it is easier to keep an eye on us then find out who the terrorist's are. Your not seeing the big picture here. Trust me we are easier to watch than the people you think they should be looking for.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 7:40:54 PM EDT
Hmm. Let's see. There are 250,000,000 Americans. Let's say 1% buy ONE gun for the year 2002 and do the required BG check. That's 2,500,000 yellow forms--paper--not electronic records. How many people would it take to file these? How many people would it take to dig thru them to find YOUR records? And you mean to tell me that not one of the thousands of people it would take to track all this info hasn't leaked it to the press? Pleeeeease...
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 9:51:25 PM EDT
Does anyone actually believe the BATF could be so accurate in record acquiring? Do they have that sort of track record? Not hardly. Hell, there's not a single govt agency that hasn't stepped on its yengyang a couple of times. Not to say that they don't want a national registery!
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 5:55:45 AM EDT
OK you guys believe what you want, your right they don't know every person that owns a gun. There is no National Registry that we know about.
Remember we were not in Cambodia, we didn't assassinate people, we didn't keep or spy on Americans against the war. So why should they care if you buy guns and ammo through the mail?
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 8:13:32 AM EDT
The government knows about some of the guns I have. Maybe the government knows about ALL the guns I have. Maybe there are a couple of guns that they don't know about.

To me, its semantics at a certain point. They are all my private property now. Knowing about them is one thing--taking them away is another. MOLON LABE
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 8:31:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Branson:
Knowing about them is one thing--taking them away is another. MOLON LABE

Exactly.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 8:35:01 AM EDT
Who cares. The gov't knows I have guns. It's obvious.
I have a CCW, a member of NRA, GOA. Member of 2 ranges. Filled out lots of yellow forms. My typical credit card bill consists of about 43 charges from Midway, Wideners, ammostore, SWFA, Sportsmansguide, Scharch, Gunthis, Gunthat, and 1 charge from Walmart, and a few gas station charges.
It is obvious that I am a gunnut. If the UPS guy can figure it out, then I'm sure all those ABC agencies know it.
As Branson said "They are all my private property now."
I ain't hurtin nobody.
So leave me alone or I will sue you!
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 8:36:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 8:45:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ByteTheBullet:
Sooo, all those guns I have bought from buddies and such...no paperwork, no paper trail. Well, unless they 'squeal'. Did I say 'all those'? Uh, I meant 'that one gun'.

ByteTheBullet (-:



This is the way to go if you are worried about it.
You just limit yourself sometimes on that really cool gun you may want.
Depends on how long or who you know that is selling it.
I have purchased guns this way, but have bought them at a store and at the gun shows.

I have a modest collection compared to some.
Im not worried about it until the right to have a gun is taken away.
And when that happens...
Well our country will have some problems to face then.
Until then, I will enjoy the right to go down to my local store or show and walk out with whatever I want.
Link Posted: 6/12/2002 7:58:29 AM EDT
Are the Feds really that energetic and efficient? I used to think so too before Sept.11., now I'm not so sure.
Link Posted: 6/12/2002 4:20:46 PM EDT
"Does anyone actually believe the BATF could be so accurate in record acquiring? Do they have that sort of track record?"

On the other hand... the ATF can't even keep track of its own weapons. They seem to have a lot missing, according to news accounts.
Link Posted: 6/12/2002 6:39:35 PM EDT

You guys give the ATF WAAAAY too much credit. They aren't nearly as efficient and nosey as you think.

My dealer sent in his FFL license renewal form over one year ago, and the ATF has YET to get him his new license. He is currently on his THIRD six month waiver to continue selling.

Not only that, he has so many form 4473's (seems like over 100,000) that he has trouble finding room for them.

Oh, one more thing, the ATF hasn't bothered to visit in years. And when they run a criminal weapon check thru his shop, they phone in the request. And this is a shop 20 miles from Chicago.
Link Posted: 6/13/2002 1:04:41 AM EDT
Reply to Six:

You are right, I got the so called "Gun Show loophole revised statuet mixed up with the private party revised statuet mixed up. This is the statuet:

166.433 Findings regarding transfers of firearms. The people of this state find that:

(1) The laws of Oregon regulating the sale of firearms contain a loophole that allows people other than gun dealers to sell firearms at gun shows without first conducting criminal background checks;

(2) It is necessary for the safety of the people of Oregon that any person who transfers a firearm at a gun show be required to request a criminal background check before completing the transfer of the firearm; and

(3) It is in the best interests of the people of Oregon that any person who transfers a firearm at any location other than a gun show be allowed to voluntarily request a criminal background check before completing the transfer of the firearm. [2001 c.1 §1]

This is the the one for private party sales:

166.436 Firearm transfers by persons other than gun dealers; criminal background checks authorized; liability. (1) The Department of State Police shall make the telephone number established under ORS 166.412 (5) available for requests from persons other than gun dealers for criminal background checks under this section.

(2) Prior to transferring a firearm, a transferor other than a gun dealer may request by telephone that the department conduct a criminal background check on the recipient and shall provide the following information to the department:


It seems to be voluntary unless conducted at a gun show, my bad.
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