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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 12/16/2003 6:45:16 AM EDT
What do you think of this?

www.patternmaster.com/chokes.html


"How Chokes Really "Work"

Contrary to popular belief, chokes do not work as the old theory supposes, by "funneling" shot pellets down from a bore-size group into a narrower stream. We've discovered that - in reality - chokes work by slowing down the wad, keeping it and the expanding gasses behind it from blowing the pattern, disrupting it. Think about it: every high-speed photo you've ever seen of a shotgun charge leaving the muzzle shows the shot ahead of the wad. How can that be, when the wad is pushing the shot charge,the gasses are pushing the wad, and the wad is lighter than the shot charge? The wad should should be going faster than the shot charge, and if the photo showed the charge three feet from the muzzle, you'd see the wad catching up and going through the center of the shot charge, along with all the expanding gasses.

How The Patternmaster™ Works.

The secret is the post inside Patternmaster™. These posts slow the wad for a fraction of a second and allow the shot to go ahead and leave the barrel undisturbed. It is literally that simple, but revolutionary enough to warrant U.S. Patent #5452535 and #6128846."


Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:13:42 AM EDT
[Blazing saddles/Madeline Kahn] "it's trooo, it's trooo"

Only I use these. They match the choke to the actual bore of the gun.
www.angleport.com/chokes3.asp?C=88006

They do slow the wad, increase the density of the pattern and reduce flyers.

I have used them in a Beretta for about 3-4 years, for hunting and sporting clays/skeet. The difference is if normally you break a bird hard, using their choke tubes, you will turn it to black dust. If you were to miss or have a weak hit, now you might break it.

One of these days I plan to get one in IC for tactical use in my 870. As I said in another post. I am convinced barrel porting on my 870 tightend up my buck groups.

These choke tubes have porting and also small sharp, pointy "fingers" inside the tube. They just barely slow the wad down.

Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 4:50:09 PM EDT
If you really want to dust some clays trying a different wad like a Windjammer it has eight petals instead of four. Man they spread quick.Every wad is not the same. Everything makes a differnce in shotgun shooting.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 10:09:49 PM EDT
Wads are not as aerodynamic as shot, which makes them slow down very quickly.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 1:09:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 6:53:05 AM EDT by Dano523]

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
What do you think of this?

www.patternmaster.com/chokes.html


"How Chokes Really "Work"

Contrary to popular belief, chokes do not work as the old theory supposes, by "funneling" shot pellets down from a bore-size group into a narrower stream. We've discovered that - in reality - chokes work by slowing down the wad, keeping it and the expanding gasses behind it from blowing the pattern, disrupting it. Think about it: every high-speed photo you've ever seen of a shotgun charge leaving the muzzle shows the shot ahead of the wad. How can that be, when the wad is pushing the shot charge,the gasses are pushing the wad, and the wad is lighter than the shot charge? The wad should should be going faster than the shot charge, and if the photo showed the charge three feet from the muzzle, you'd see the wad catching up and going through the center of the shot charge, along with all the expanding gasses.

How The Patternmaster™ Works.

The secret is the post inside Patternmaster™. These posts slow the wad for a fraction of a second and allow the shot to go ahead and leave the barrel undisturbed. It is literally that simple, but revolutionary enough to warrant U.S. Patent #5452535 and #6128846."



Total bullshit.

If you take a picture of a straight walled barrel (zero choke), as even the tips of the wad leave the muzzle, the resistence of the air is opening up the wad, and the back of the cup is creating a parasute that is causing the wad to be drawn off the forward moving shot.

Remember, there is pressure behind the wad, and unless the choke bleeds off all the gun powder driving rear pressure before the wad gets to the ribbed section of the choke, The ribbed section will have no effect on slowing the wad.


Or, Thats like saying that a Ribbed condom will slow your penatration rate more than if you used a smooth condom.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:18:07 AM EDT
I can't argue with the results of the Patternmaster chokes, from all reports they work great. But I am suspicious of the claim about slowing down the wad is all that is required to tighten patterns not the constriction of the choke. If this was true then why did choking the barrel work before wads were invented? Riddle me that Batman! MIKE.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:35:21 AM EDT
Dano, it reduces flyers and concentrates more shot in the pattern by slowing the wad down even quicker BEFORE it ever leaves the muzzle, not after. As you said, the wad starts to spread after it has left the barrel. The damage to your pattern was done before that event ever took place.

I am also convinced by grabbing the wad in this way it also causes it to open quicker as it leaves the barrel.

I have never handled the Pattern master chokes, but the angle porting chokes actually have sharp projections you can feel with your finger tip, not ribs. Obvioulsy the small ports also offer help in slowing it down too.

The simple fact is, this was driven by guys who shoot for money competitively. That is how I learned about it. I was skeptical at first. I tested it on paper, the range and the field and found it to be true.

It goes right along with the same and very odd fact that you can put a cheap $30 .410 chamber insert (not a full length barrel insert) in a 12 gauge and still get the same choke results. In other words in a 12 gauge with IC the .410 will pattern like a .410 IC. Change the 12 gauge choke to Full and now the .410 patterns like .410 with Full. They don't know exactly why it works, but it always does. And that is for any insert of any gauge in any 12 or 20 gauge.

This is hard to beleive too because how in the hell does a .410 going down a 12 gauge barrel react to a change in choke at all?

Like I said I have not tested it on buck shot yet, but I have read where people got the same results with buck, tighter patterns. The holes in the paper show it.

Sometime this winter, if I get time I will try to do some pattern testing again and take pics to post.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:01:42 AM EDT
Ok, Lets just put an end to this Magic Pattering that no one has a clue how it works.

1. On a choke, the constriction of the choke (end of barrel) over the running bore will determine the amount of constriction/tightness that the pattern will be concentrated down range. This means that as shot is driven done the barrel, the wad/shot conforms to the barrel and any restrictions in the end of barrel (even a 410 down a 12 gauge bore) will be conformed accordingly.

2. If you bleed out some/all of the barrel pressure before the wad has left the muzzle, then the amount of gasses that may blow out the pattern are demised. This barrel venting of pressure can be done by either porting the barrel, or porting the choke to reduce the amount of gases that are expelled to the wads rear and sides and around the shot into the front of it.

3. The shot/wad is driven by gas pressure until it leaves the barrel. At 1200FPS, the ribbed section, or porting sections, will not slow the wad, or allow the cup to be stopped with the shot “just flung out of the wad”. These ribs/holes mar the outside of the wad, which creates more surface tension on the outside surface of the wad. As the wad/shot enters open air, the rougher the wad surface, the more drag that it will have and will fall away (slowed down) from the shot pattern faster. The faster the entire shot pattern is exposed to air resistances (not just the front of the pattern), the faster that the shot pattern is going to open up.

So to break it down, don’t blow the shit out of the wad/pattern as it leaves the barrel. Either load down, or port the choke/barrel so the excess barrel pressure is vented to the sides instead of the back of the wad as it leaves the muzzle.
If you want a wad to be released from the shot even faster to increase the patterning size (caused by air resistance), roughen the outer surfaces of the wad before it leaves the end of barrel. This creates more surface tension on the wad, and opens the wad pedestals faster for the wad to have a faster parachute effect.

Now if you what the pattern to be as round/shot evenly distributed as possible, without voids in the pattern, straight rifle the bore to keep the wad/shot from rotating as if travels down the bore and threw the choke into open air resistance.


If I have lost anyone, I can get out a crayon and draw a picture on the wall.

Fucking magic patterns, sometimes I think you guys will fall for anything, including the Shrike scam.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:43:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 10:59:55 AM EDT by Zoub]
Dano, when I read point number 3 it seems like you just made the case for why these tubes work.

The small, very sharp pinpoints grab hold of the wad on the outside edges. Whether it slows the wad or scuffs it, the result is the wad seperates faster from the shot column. Causing less shot to be distorted and it reduces flyers and stringers which increases shot density in the pattern, regardless of choke size being used. The porting of the tubes also helps to achieve this.

Angle porting also states they use a parallel section up to 1 inch long in their tubes. Basically similar to what you described doing. This would stop the wad from rotating?

When I look at the Angle Porting site, the tubes I own, they never mention slowing the wad down. I must have picked that up when I read the pattern master info? It seems their tubes do what Dano describes in point #3.

Another thought, perhaps the sharp points on my tubes are designed to stop the wad from rotating by grabbing the wad?

On the other issue of the inserts, I still find it interesting that a .410 shot column does not just blow to hell when going down a 12 gauge barrel.
www.chambermates.com/background.htm
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:49:37 AM EDT
OK, this is starting to make sense.

The magic to Vang barrels shooting such tight groups is due to the barrel porting he does.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:15:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dano523:
I can get out a crayon and draw a picture on the wall.


OK, but write slow, I am taking notes.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:48:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 12:43:50 PM EDT by Dano523]
You have to prevent the shot column from rotating down the barrel in the first place. Even if you stop the wad rotation at the end of the barrel, the shot colum is still in rotation, and will spiral disperse once it exists the wad/muzzle. Run a shot shell down a rifled shotgun barrel, and you will you see that the pattern opens up way too fast.

Also, I never said that the chokes don't work, I just said bull shit to the fact that the tube is going to delay the wad, when the wad is being driven out of the barrel by 18,000 PSI of pressure. Instead of buying special chokes at $60 a pop, have the barrels ported for $120. This will reduce the amount that the barrels will rise/recoil, and will help bleed off the barrel pressure before the wad exits the muzzle (pattern blow out).

P.S. I run Mag-Na-Port porting on a few shotguns (in line porting) and really prefer it to the cluster type of porting. Granted both types of porting make the shotguns louder, the Mag-Na-port “Holds” the barrel down, while the cluster type seems to “Push” the muzzle back down. Also the ports are EDM cut, so in regards to stopping wad rotation, the ports have no sharp edge into the bore and will not affect the wad to stop rotation.

To add, running ribbed chokes may work for a while. But in sports that require long strings of shooting, the ribs can build up with plastic fouling, which will affect the shot pattern (clean choke to fouled choke).

For some of you guys, keeping the chokes clean may not be a problem, for some of use (myself included) we tend to no clean our barrels for days (thousands of rounds). Hell, I even left my barrels so plastic fouled that when cleaned, I just shove solid plastic tubes of fouling (3 mil thick) out to the barrels.

If you spend any amount of time at the skeet range, you will see this from a lot of guys, and were not talking cheap shotguns. The plastic fouled tubes scuff up the wad, and causes surface tension on the cup, which opens up the pattern faster than a clean bore. Works great for incoming short shots, but makes getting the second shot on a set of doubles off 3 and 5 a real bitch.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 12:16:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 12:46:47 PM EDT by Dano523]

Originally Posted By Zoub:
On the other issue of the inserts, I still find it interesting that a .410 shot column does not just blow to hell when going down a 12 gauge barrel.
www.chambermates.com/background.htm



When any shot/shell is fired threw a shotgun barrel, the shot column will flatten out to fill the barrel width/bore. Granted that the sealing cup (base) of the .410 wad may not fill/flair the width of the bore, but the shot/upper cup pedestals will (read wad cup flared out). If you were to check the barrel on these rifles that used the short inserts, you will see lead traces down the barrel, like when you fill a wad with more shot that it can hold and the shot sticks up past the wad cup and scraps down the bore, instead of being contained in the wad cup during the bore travel. For this reason, skeet shooter use full-length sub tubes to prevent the lead from building up on the bore/tubes surfaces, and distorting the shot/ velocities of the patterns.

Again, nothing magic about it, and is the simple reason that lengthen a forcing cone, or over-boring allows the shot column to be reduce father down the barrel/or less reduction when it hits the straight of the bore, which decreases perceived recoil.
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