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Posted: 11/9/2012 5:20:27 AM EST
I found some pics last night on a weapon that seems to be a mystery as to who made it, I think you guys would like to see it:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/caveat-emptor-stg45-prototype/





Link Posted: 11/9/2012 7:46:29 AM EST
The Trigger and the stock seem to be the only difference from the STG45 pics I've seen before.

Maybe this was THE prototype?
Link Posted: 11/9/2012 9:58:00 AM EST
No doubt where the FAL came from. This should be in the FAL forum instead of HK.
Link Posted: 11/9/2012 10:15:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/9/2012 10:16:04 AM EST by wtwining]
Originally Posted By Gamma762:
No doubt where the FAL came from. This should be in the FAL forum instead of HK.


from the link:

It really is a gun, and a registered transferable machine gun at that – but it’s not an StG45. It’s not German at all. The first clue that something is wrong is the magazine (which I’m sure any one reading this noticed right away). The mag is not an MP44 magazine, it’s too long front to back. Given that the every single other known German late-war prototype stuck with the MP44 mag and the 7.92×33 cartridge, one would have to wonder why this gun would be the lone exception. Next up, the bakelite stock. Pretty much all the late German stuff was stamped.

This thing is definitely not what the seller has claimed it to be. So what is it? Almost certainly Swiss – they experimented with a lot of German-inspired arms ideas (like this one, for instance) in the years following WWII. It’s a legitimately interesting prototype, just not worth anything near the insane asking price (especially given it being chambered in an unknown and thus unavailable cartridge). Well, we just happen to have some photos of it disassembled, in case you are curious
Link Posted: 11/10/2012 2:54:18 PM EST
This paticular gun was at the SAR gunshow in Pheonix a few years ago. It is a german gun and was captured during the last days of WWII.
Link Posted: 11/10/2012 3:29:39 PM EST
To me, this gun's action is very similar to the SVT-38/40 Tokarev action.


The tilting bolt, bolt cam cutouts on the carrier and the fixed rear support for the return spring guide are a dead giveaway.
Of course the Germans would have had a great deal of exposure to the SVT system at the time.
Link Posted: 11/10/2012 3:49:07 PM EST
What suggests that the gun is of Swiss origin? The majority of the gun (externally) looks pretty distinctly German to me, with the magazine and the crude sights looking of Soviet origin.
Link Posted: 11/10/2012 8:14:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By redrook101:
What suggests that the gun is of Swiss origin? The majority of the gun (externally) looks pretty distinctly German to me, with the magazine and the crude sights looking of Soviet origin.


It was becuase of the magazine, its not from a MP44, its believed that the Germans would have made it round the MP44 mag and also the magazine release was also differeint from both the stg44/45
Link Posted: 11/10/2012 8:16:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gamma762:
No doubt where the FAL came from. This should be in the FAL forum instead of HK.


This is what I got from the FAL guys:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_7/383103_Hey_FAL_guys__take_a_look_at_this_.html


No, not a proto FAL. Dieudonne Saive barely even had the FN-49 designed at that point.

Certainly *LOOKS* like a German design?

ETA: Looks like a German attempt to create an STG-44 in the form factor of a subgun, ala MP38/40. They may have scaled the round down as 7.92 Kurz may not have been as controllable in something that size.

Dieudonne Saive had the FN49 designed by 1938; he escaped Belgium with the plans and tried to convince the British to adopt the design during WWII. If memory serves, they even tested some prototypes.


Link Posted: 11/10/2012 8:17:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ronzo:
This paticular gun was at the SAR gunshow in Pheonix a few years ago. It is a german gun and was captured during the last days of WWII.


wow, I wish I could find info on this!

Link Posted: 11/10/2012 10:04:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By wtwining:
Originally Posted By redrook101:
What suggests that the gun is of Swiss origin? The majority of the gun (externally) looks pretty distinctly German to me, with the magazine and the crude sights looking of Soviet origin.


It was becuase of the magazine, its not from a MP44, its believed that the Germans would have made it round the MP44 mag and also the magazine release was also differeint from both the stg44/45


Possibly a post-war project from one of the USSR states? I am not familiar with anything Swiss that uses a magazine with a spine shaped like that, or a sliding trigger rather than a hinged trigger; Com-bloc weapons come to mind for that magazine style though.
Link Posted: 11/10/2012 11:52:11 PM EST
Very interesting!
Link Posted: 11/11/2012 12:04:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/11/2012 12:05:06 AM EST by osprey21]
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:42:07 PM EST
OK, as not to let this thread die.Robert Starer of Historic Arms does or did bring an example of this gun to the SAR show in Phoenix in 2010. Starer stated that he bought this gun from an auction from an anonymous seller in the Seventies.The gun was registered in the 1968 amnesty and whowever registered it attatched STG45 on the original amnesty papers.Email :HistoricArms@verizon.net.
You can try e-mailing Robert and see if you can get a hold of him. If you do get more info on this I would hope you would share any details in this thread or PM,email me and Osprey. Thanks,Ronnie.
Link Posted: 11/20/2012 11:05:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2012 11:11:01 AM EST by arheart]
its a prototype folding stock STG45. There....happy


technically the mauser stg45 kurtz SMG, youd do better looking at the lineage of the emp44 and mp40 and how this was "born" during those endevours and designs. Its essentially mp40 Smg in different caliber.
Link Posted: 11/20/2012 4:05:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By arheart:
its a prototype folding stock STG45. There....happy


technically the mauser stg45 kurtz SMG, youd do better looking at the lineage of the emp44 and mp40 and how this was "born" during those endevours and designs. Its essentially mp40 Smg in different caliber.


So, this is the Mauser STG45 before the roller lock?
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 5:59:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/21/2012 6:00:45 AM EST by arheart]
check out an mp38 as well. I believe this is where the M3 "grease gun", PPsh's, and others derived from as well. Things were really cooking in firearms development at this time.
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