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Posted: 1/12/2011 2:38:09 PM EDT
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Wow! I never realized there were so many disagreements regarding gun safes...it's almost like beans/no beans in GD. So I have some questions:
1. Since Champion, Liberty, Cannon, Browning, Sturdy, Fort Knox, and most others are crap, what is a good gun safe that offers fire and theft protection? 2. Since there are no standards for fire ratings, how do you guys determine what is legitimate and what is marketing hooey? 3. Is there a safe under $10k that is more difficult to break into than another since most safes mentioned above can be breached with a flathead screwdriver, a pry bar, or a roofing hammer in the amount of time it takes to warm up cheese dip? Seriously, there have to be safes out there that I have not heard of that are quality products, because I really don't see where any safe mentioned above or others that I have heard of are universally accepted as being a quality safe. Surely, there is a Toyota Tacoma of gun safes out there, and I'd like to find it. Disclaimer: In another thread, somebody posted pics of Mosler Safes, and those do actually look very good, but their website for those types of safes is under construction. I'd love a link to a dealer...if they still make safes like the ones pictured...but they may have been safes that were made years ago, and would be difficult to find. Not trying to start a shitstorm, but there has to be some common ground that most can agree on that doesn't cost as much as a 4-wheeler. If I'm the only one who thinks this way, then we can let this thread die before it gets started. But if there are others who have similar thoughts, and knowledgeable people who can give somewhat objective opinions, let the discussion begin. |
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Liberty, Browning, Fort Knox, and Sturdy all make safes worth owning. In my opinion only their entry level safes are crap. All of Cannon and Champions safes are crap in my opinion.
Graffunder is top Dog in the Gun safe market, they make plenty of safes under $10k worth owning. To determine what is a good safe and what is not, you should visit a safe store and talk to someone who specializes in selling safes. |
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Liberty, Browning, Fort Knox, and Sturdy all make safes worth owning. In my opinion only their entry level safes are crap. All of Cannon and Champions safes are crap in my opinion. Graffunder is top Dog in the Gun safe market, they make plenty of safes under $10k worth owning. To determine what is a good safe and what is not, you should visit a safe store and talk to someone who specializes in selling safes. I appreciate the dialogue, but what objective information do you have that leads you to say Cannon and Champion are crap? On the contrary, I have heard the Cannon Safari Series is very good. My personal experience, as posted in another thread, is that Champion is a great safe, and the fire rating for 2011 for the Triumph Series is 2 hours at 1500 degrees, while the Crown is even better. The top two Fort Knox safes are superior, but none of the others you mentioned are close. Is this all marketing BS? I have been to a safe store and spoken with a dealer who sells Fort Knox and Champion. Other than the top two tiers of Fort Knox, the Champions are on par according to him, and far more bang for the buck while still being a great safe. I may wind up buying a Fort Knox Legend safe, but I might not, and I'm not convinced that Champion is a mistake...far from it. I'm not convinced the others are junk either, but I don't see how they are superior to anything else from what I can see on their websites. So I'll ask for again for objective reasons rather than unspecific personal opinion...and I'm not dismissing you in any way, I'm just trying to make some headway here. I'll look into Graffunder, and no, I had not heard of them. Thanks. |
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If you have read the other threads on the main page of the safe forum, then you would have the answers to your questions about cannon and Champion. It gets old answering the same question over and over every day.
Also, read the Michael Bane blog if you want to know more about cannon. |
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If you have read the other threads on the main page of the safe forum, then you would have the answers to your questions about cannon and Champion. It gets old answering the same question over and over every day. Also, read the Michael Bane blog if you want to know more about cannon. I have, and I also did an archive search, and other than something about not sending in a warranty card and a vague comment on fit and finish, I can't see where you have ever offered anything other than an opinion based on hearsay. I'll look into the Bane article, but Cannon, for me, is out because I think there are better safes out there for the same or less money based on my research...but that in no way means that I think Cannon is junk. Do you, by chance, work in the business of selling or manufacturing safes? I'm just curious where you have gotten your education that makes you so certain in your opinion. If you have obtained this opinion based on research, then perhaps we just disagree, because my research leads me to believe otherwise. By the way, Graffunder does look to be very good. Anyone else? |
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Liberty.....crap???? I beg to differ. I love my Liberties! Built tough and affordable. My point exactly...I think Liberty is a good safe also...I was being facetious with my OP. The point of this thread is to see if there is really any merit to those who are anti-Liberty, or anti-Cannon, or anti-Browning, or anti-Champion, etc...or if the anti-whatevers are simply being that way because of opinion only. AND, to see if there are characteristics that make an RSC safe "good", and exactly what those are. If a safe prevents the average thief from getting in, then it did its job, and it is as good as anything out there. If a safe prevents the belongings in it from being burned up in a fire until the FD can get there to put out the blaze, then it did its job and is as good as anything out there. Is there any objective evidence to suggest that any brand does one or both of these tasks better than another? Or, is there any objective evidence to suggest that any brand does an inferior job compared to others? I think a professional is going to be able to get into most safes in a short amount of time...that's what insurance is for. Again, sorry if my post in any way insinuated that Liberty is junk. |
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Don't rule out getting an actual UL listed, tool rated safe (e.g., TL30).
If you talk to a safe dealer, you may be able to pick up a used one for less than the cost of a four-wheeler  .
Buy a TL30 and no one will bitch about what you bought. It's a real safe. Get an alarm and forget about it. |
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If you have read the other threads on the main page of the safe forum, then you would have the answers to your questions about cannon and Champion. It gets old answering the same question over and over every day. Also, read the Michael Bane blog if you want to know more about cannon. I have, and I also did an archive search, and other than something about not sending in a warranty card and a vague comment on fit and finish, I can't see where you have ever offered anything other than an opinion based on hearsay. I'll look into the Bane article, but Cannon, for me, is out because I think there are better safes out there for the same or less money based on my research...but that in no way means that I think Cannon is junk. Do you, by chance, work in the business of selling or manufacturing safes? I'm just curious where you have gotten your education that makes you so certain in your opinion. If you have obtained this opinion based on research, then perhaps we just disagree, because my research leads me to believe otherwise. By the way, Graffunder does look to be very good. Anyone else? No disrespect but it doesn't seem like you've done any research otherwise you'd have the answers to many of your questions. 1) Yes, he works in the safe biz 2) He's posted plenty of pics and real world experience concerning many of the safes you mention 3) No one said all those safes were crap. I do have a Liberty that's crap but I also have a Sturdy that I think is excellent for the money. Also if you look at posts from the last week I posted a link to a TL30x6 safe that can be had for way less then 10K. |
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No disrespect but it doesn't seem like you've done any research otherwise you'd have the answers to many of your questions. 1) Yes, he works in the safe biz 2) He's posted plenty of pics and real world experience concerning many of the safes you mention 3) No one said all those safes were crap. I do have a Liberty that's crap but I also have a Sturdy that I think is excellent for the money. Also if you look at posts from the last week I posted a link to a TL30x6 safe that can be had for way less then 10K. Actually, that is a safe I had not heard of...and I can't search it if I haven't heard of it. No one person said all of the safes I mentioned were crap, but it seems as if every safe has a critic (or a few) who says that it's crap...case in point, this thread...one poster is VERY happy with Liberty...you say it's crap. I'm sure someone could come along with a story of a Lackasafe or a Sturdy that was cracked in a matter of minutes, or of an instance in which all of the contents were destroyed in a fire that lasted less than 45 minutes, or something else... So far, the points I have gathered from the posts on this forum regarding this topic are: 1. There is no safe that is "safe" from a professional attack. 2. Some safes, not clear on which ones, are prone to breach by a petty thief with a couple of common hand tools. 3. Nobody really knows how resistant to fire any safe is since there are no standards in fire testing. 4. There are two camps in this forum...those who are happy with typical quality RSC safes such as Champion, Liberty, Cannon, Browning, and several others, and the group who says "get a real safe." 5. The obvious...have an alarm system, and delay the ease with which an attacker can get into your safe. Again, nobody seems to be able to point out objective specifics on why to go one way over the other outside of opinion. Sure, a 5000 lb safe seems to be a logical choice, and it may in fact be more resistant to petty attack than an 1800 lb safe...but is it any better in terms of fire resistance? Two hours at 350 degrees indicates "no", but then again, what testing standards did they employ? There really is a point/counterpoint to every consideration. I would think there would be some insurance data somewhere to indicate which safes have more reports of fire breaches or burlglary breaches. But then again, that would be skewed based on sales numbers. Has there ever been a test, in which manufacturers subjected their safes to independent analysis to test for the questions I'm asking? If not, then nobody REALLY knows. All points well taken, let's let the conversation continue. |
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Pinned 3rd thread down in the main section of the safe forum.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=46&t=265373 Some of the pictures in the thread are of Graffunders and are from Graffunders website. I find it hard to believe that you looked around in the forum and never heard of graffunder (if you actually searched around in it). Liberty makes some excellent safes, but they also make some I wouldn't own as well. You always get what you pay for in a retail market, or if your buying from someone who is not stupid or desperate. I saw a Liberty Presidential 40 Gloss sell on CL near me last night for $1,950.00! That is less than half what they retail for. He didn't pay $5,900 for it, but hey thats how they make stuff look like a good deal on CL. New, that safe would go for about $4,000-$4,400 http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/spo/2150811977.html |
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I have a B rated Brown that I bought the same time as my Sturdy and the Sturdy is a much better safe. My assumption is that the Browns are better made as you get to C rated and above.
And to the OP I never said all Liberty's are crap, I said MY Liberty is. And I've never heard anyone say that Sturdy is. |
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Don't rule out getting an actual UL listed, tool rated safe (e.g., TL30). If you talk to a safe dealer, you may be able to pick up a used one for less than the cost of a four-wheeler .
Buy a TL30 and no one will bitch about what you bought. It's a real safe. Get an alarm and forget about it. BINGO! If you are serious about 10K being the limit, you can find plenty of real safes TL-30 rated and up in that range. WorldWide Safe is what I have. TL-30, and 2 hour fire rating at 1800 degrees. Under 4k delivered. As you said, the fire rating is not consistent across manufacturers, but if you compare similar construction, you will begin to get a feel for what you are looking at. Concrete composite >> drywall boards >> just steel. |
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Browns are nice safes, have good construction, and have some neat options. I am a Graffunder believer when your looking at high end product, there isn't much better for value or quality construction.
Let's take a look at something here real quick. OP what city or zipcode in Tenesse are you in? |
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You mentioned Mosler. If I remember right Mosler went out many years ago. Someone may have bought the name. All the old ones I have seen look like good safes, and can usually be picked up pretty cheap.
For 10k you can get a brand new burglary rated safe. Call Worldwide Safe & Vault. Fire rated safes will not necessarily save your guns. Fires often burn hotter than the ratings on the safe and the insides may heat up even if nothing inside catches fire. A local gun store burned around here several years back. The guns in the safe were damaged some were salvaged but had to be refinished. If you are worried about fire your safe should be surrounded by concrete in a basement. |
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Browns are nice safes, have good construction, and have some neat options. I am a Graffunder believer when your looking at high end product, there isn't much better for value or quality construction.
My uncle has a Graffunder and I absolutely agree, it's a very well made safe. The only person I've spoken with who has a Brown is btn and he seems to be saying the same thing as you on the quality, 'very good but not the level of quality and craftsmanship of Graffunder or even Sturdy. |
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Browns are nice safes, have good construction, and have some neat options. I am a Graffunder believer when your looking at high end product, there isn't much better for value or quality construction. Let's take a look at something here real quick. OP what city or zipcode in Tenesse are you in? 37934 There are dealers 3+ hours away or more...one of the ones listed is in fact NOT a dealer. I called the one in Lawrenceville, and that guy didn't know his ass from his elbow...he had never heard of Graffunder, so I told him to look up Sage and that finally rang a bell. For the B7248=$7,600.00...the C7248=$9,600.00...OUCH!!!  The problem is I need a big safe, and for a Graffunder, that means big $$$. Now, those are definitely badass safes.
I have some other options I may look into...not ruling it out, but there may be a more efficient way to achieve the same thing. |
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There is a Liberty Platinum Dealer 48 miles from you in Crossville Tenesse. I hope that is not a 3 hour travel time. There is another platinum dealer in Corbin, KY that is 73 miles away.
There are also endless browning dealers near you. http://www.browning.com/dealerlocator/resultszip.asp?zip=37934&distance=100&submit_geo_search=Locate+Dealer You need to use the dealer locators on the manufacturer websites. |
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I do and did use the dealer locators. There is a Fort Knox and Champion dealer 15 minutes away. I like Liberty, and Cannon, and Browning, and most others in that category...and if I stick with this type of safe, I'll either go with Fort Knox or another Champion...there is a Champion warehouse/manufacturing facility in Knoxville. I do like Graffunders...just don't know how the hell I would get one here. And I REALLY like the Moslers pictured in another thread.
In all fairness, I will say that I did look more closely at the gaps between the door and frame on my Champion, and I can easily get a pry bar in there, and from the pictures I have seen as I look around more in this forum, that is a concern to me regardless of the number of bolts a safe has. |
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I'll either go with Fort Knox or another Champion...there is a Champion warehouse/manufacturing facility in Knoxville. I do like Graffunders...just don't know how the hell I would get one here. And I REALLY like the Moslers pictured in another thread.
In all fairness, I will say that I did look more closely at the gaps between the door and frame on my Champion, and I can easily get a pry bar in there, and from the pictures I have seen as I look around more in this forum, that is a concern to me regardless of the number of bolts a safe has. If you are not considering a Graffunder which is certainly the premier gun safe in the industry, then I really think you should take a closer look at Sturdy. It's no coincidence that there are so many fans and owners here on a sub-forum devoted to safes and security, we've all went through a similar process and found that they make a great safe for the money. The gap between the door and the body on a Sturdy is every bit as tight as a Graffunder, photo of mine here. When looking at those others, really take a close look at the door gap especially if the door isn't recessed. 
The door is recessed too 
And an incredibly strong door frame with active bolts that are fully supported at all times 
All of which make the Sturdy safe door virtually impossible to pry open As for fire protection, I don't think there is any gun safe company with better fire protection than Sturdy safe has. They use a ceramic fiber plus high temperature glass fiber which are both dry thermal barrier specifically designed for low mass (heat storing capacity) and great thermal resistance. In fact, many furnace and kiln companies have replaced the traditional use of refractory bricks to using these high performance fiber materials to improve efficiency due to less heat loss and better temperature control for sensitive heat treat applications. Gypsum (dry wall) and even concrete release steam when exposed to high heat which is good in the sense of stabilizing the temperature while this process occurs and raising the flash-point but bad in that the pressure will rise inside the sealed safe which makes insulation less effective and also boils the contents of the safe with superheated steam that likely will destroy the finish on the guns. As evidence, three similar fires involving three safes mentioned here photos from each companies website: First is a B-rated Graffunder that is fire rated that uses a composite concrete fire insulation: complete burn down of a shop in the winter months: 
 
Guns survived but most of them appear to need re-bluing of the metal and re-finishing the wood which would suck if you have a collection of original "correct" fire arms. From Liberty, the Fatboy using dry wall insulation, complete burn of a garage:  
As you can see, the damage is similar to what's shown on the Graffunder but it's interesting to see the charring on the shelf on the upper right corner. Now for Sturdy, complete burndown of a residence. The contents had no damage at all and it's clear that the paper is un-charred (interior less than 350F) and also no steam to ruin the finish on the guns: 
   
Also what's nice about Sturdy, you can enhance common areas of attack like adding additional 7ga plates to the sides for 3/8" of steel thickness to cut through and also a stainless steel plate can be added over the locking area to make a torch attack or any attack to the lock more difficult. All of this at a reasonable price, free shipping, great customer service, and lifetime warranty. So anyway, you might want to take another look at Sturdy if you are considering those others. |
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That graffunder safe was sitting across from a steel shelf that I believe had 21 lbs of black powder on it, and the fire got hot enough to completely torch a steel pole building. Now I dont know what the fire rating on a sturdy is, but the graffunder in a "B" rate was furnace tested at 1700 degrees for an hour and only got up to 235 degrees inside.
I don't think these pictures show enough specifics to draw conclusions between any of them. I see what I believe is damage to the items in all 3 sets of pictures. Without descriptions of what they were or what we we are looking at from the manufacturers, I don't think it is fair to post them and draw conclusions. Something as simple as leaving the safe locked up for a week after the fire will ruin guns, where is if it had been opened within a day or two the guns would look great. It is not fair to make statements about these pictures without knowing about them directly from the people who host them. Now I do have pictures of some safes where I was present and actually saw them enter and exit the furnace on a fire test. They put guns and money in them, and I know what kind of shape they were in as they came out, and the stuff looked ok, but it definitely wasn't perfect. |
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Snop,
You're probably right I really shouldn't say too much about the Graffunder and Fat Boy case because I don't have all the details. I can say though because we just had the conversation in another forum, that the Sturdy safes contents had no damage at all; here is a quote from them after someone said the contents were damaged: Quote: "Franky" If you compare these photos to others where "shadows" are claimed to be causing the color distortion, you can draw your own conclusions. Quote: Sturdy Safe: Lol, It is what we say it is Franky. No damage. Perfect condition. Stan (the owner of the safe) as well as a few firemen from that blaze can testify to that. Indeed, I have more names and numbers for you, and anyone else who wants them. We have nothing to hide, and we are more than willing to prove it's the truth. It's ok thou, keep stating otherwise. We feel, your not helping yourself out by doing so. Actually my comment is really based on my years of experience working in the metals industry with heat treat furnaces as an engineer and based on the properties of the materials. Also, from the other discussion mentioned above, the guy "Franky" kept quoting UL and making statements that were more based on his opinion than theirs. Here's what was said: Quote: "Franky"
a1abdj#42: Cast insulations do a better job of protecting contents against fire. It's not just my opinion. It's the opinion of UL, the major safe manufacturers, and although I can't speak for everybody, most of us in the business. Quote: Sturdy Safe: When it comes to fire protection in safes, we feel, ceramic is way more effective than cast insulations . UL AGREES WITH US. Spreading misinformation on UL's behalf to sell safes (seeing as how your a 30 yr old safe salemen) will get you in deep trouble with UL, and they don't take these things lightly. No one needs to take our word, or any other salesmans word for it, just contact people who would know. In this case, it would be Michael B. Koepke (Customer Service Engineer Elements with Underwriters Laboratories Inc. aka "the man to actually ask these questions to"). 877-854-3577 ext. 42902 When I asked Michael if he thought your statement quoted above is true when it came to cast vs. ceramic insulations, he said NO. I asked Michael if there really are safes lined with ceramic with a UL Fire/Class# rating on them, and he said YES. When I asked Michael if he could give the name and other details of these UL Fire/Class# safes lined with ceramic, he said he couldn't give out that info, and said I would need to contact the safe manufacturers direct so they could tell me what they used. |
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I have a Browning safe and it is hardly crap. If you want to talk crap, check out StackOn or the cheap safes sold at Lowes or Home Depot. Browning is a descent safe for the money. Not top end, but not crap either. I know...read the thread...I don't think Browning is crap either...it was sarcasm. |
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Here's what it really boils down to regarding MOST people who are happy with their safes, and think they are not crap. Those people have never had an attempted break in, not to mention never had an attack on their safe. So, sure it isn't crap. It is pretty, keeps the kids out, and guns and valuables are organized. It looks cool.
My guess is that most people who have had attacks on their 12 -16 gauge safes now think their cool safes are crap. There are too many pictures and videos floating around of thin-gauged steel "safes" that have been broken into. When you can take a pry bar or a sledge hammer and get the safe open in a matter of minutes, I consider that crap from a security standpoint. That includes just about all RSC-designated "safes". Listen to the pros. They see this stuff everyday. Most of them aren't trying to sell you something. They aren't making any money off your purchase decision. Just sharing experiences that most of the time aren't posted all over the internet. Don't make decisions based off of manufactures claims, pictures, and videos. They are affected by your purchase decisions, therefore they are only going to show you the good cases. Bottom line is that a RSC/safe is the last line of defense in what should be a multi-tiered security structure. Buy what you are comfortable with when taking into account all the other factors in your security structure and life. |
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Here's what it really boils down to regarding MOST people who are happy with their safes, and think they are not crap. Those people have never had an attempted break in, not to mention never had an attack on their safe. So, sure it isn't crap. It is pretty, keeps the kids out, and guns and valuables are organized. It looks cool. My guess is that most people who have had attacks on their 12 -16 gauge safes now think their cool safes are crap. There are too many pictures and videos floating around of thin-gauged steel "safes" that have been broken into. When you can take a pry bar or a sledge hammer and get the safe open in a matter of minutes, I consider that crap from a security standpoint. That includes just about all RSC-designated "safes". Listen to the pros. They see this stuff everyday. Most of them aren't trying to sell you something. They aren't making any money off your purchase decision. Just sharing experiences that most of the time aren't posted all over the internet. Don't make decisions based off of manufactures claims, pictures, and videos. They are affected by your purchase decisions, therefore they are only going to show you the good cases. Bottom line is that a RSC/safe is the last line of defense in what should be a multi-tiered security structure. Buy what you are comfortable with when taking into account all the other factors in your security structure and life. Only about half of the RSC-Designated safes are what I would consider crap. |
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