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Posted: 8/13/2009 3:35:10 AM EDT
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Is it posible to take a class three weapon and deregister them to make it a non NFA weapon. My three examples would be:
1 Taking a SBS and adding 18" barrel to it. 2 Taking a silencer, gut it and weld in a solid tube, re-finish. 3 Taking a HK 416 (full auto) and removing the full auto guts and installing semi guts and the have the auto sear holes welded up and re finished. |
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Quoted:
Is it posible to take a class three weapon and deregister them to make it a non NFA weapon. My three examples would be: 1 Taking a SBS and adding 18" barrel to it. 2 Taking a silencer, gut it and weld in a solid tube, re-finish. 3 Taking a HK 416 (full auto) and removing the full auto guts and installing semi guts and the have the auto sear holes welded up and re finished. 1. Yes, you could put a longer barrel on a SBR or SBS, and send a letter to the BATFE and have them reclassify the weapon as title 1. However the weapon does remain on the registery with a note that it was a NFA weapon. 2. No, Suppressors have to be destroyed to be demilled. 3. No, "Once a machine gun, always a machine gun". You could take the 416 upper, and slap it on any semi AR15 lower. |
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Why can't people just answer the OP's question without asking WHY he would want to do that? The question is, is it possible and the answer is yes, at least for #1 that I know of. I got a tax stamp for a rifle that I turned into an SBR. I never used it and wanted to sell it. Nobody would buy it as an SBR because they did not want or were not able to own an SBR. I put the 16" barrel back on it, documented the change and had the NFA Registry ammended to show the rifle was a Title1 gun again. When I got the letter saying so from BATFE, I sold it as a title1 gun for more than what I paid including the cost of the now worthless tax stamp.
ETA: A class3 item is never taken out of the NFA Registry, it is just ammended to show the current status of the item. MadDog 
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Is it posible to take a class three weapon and deregister them to make it a non NFA weapon. My three examples would be: 1 Taking a SBS and adding 18" barrel to it. adding an over 16" barrel doesn't UNmake the SBR. it would be an SBR with a long barrel. you can have the registry changed though by sending them a letter and telling them it will no longer be configured as an SBR. they will note it, and your gun will effectively be a title 1 gun again. be sure you've already rid yourself of the short barrel though... 2 Taking a silencer, gut it and weld in a solid tube, re-finish. i suppose this could be done the same as above, but i have no idea why you would do it. you can buy fake cans for cheap money. doing it this way means you are buying the can, paying the tax, waiting for the transfer, destroying the suppressor, making new fake internals, and then buttoning the whole thing up again. there is no reason in the world to do that. 3 Taking a HK 416 (full auto) and removing the full auto guts and installing semi guts and the have the auto sear holes welded up and re finished. the only way you could legally do this, would be to have a dealer get the weapon, and then demill the lower to current ATF guidelines. once demilled, the remaining pieces are just scrap metal. from there, you'd have to find a *very* good welder to jig up the parts, and re-weld them back together, grind and smooth the surfaces, remark, and anodize. i can only imagine the work alone would cost a small fortune. |
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Is it posible to take a class three weapon and deregister them to make it a non NFA weapon. My three examples would be: 1 Taking a SBS and adding 18" barrel to it. If the overall length is also legal, you can send in a request to have it removed from the registry, when that's completed then it would be a title I shotgun. 2 Taking a silencer, gut it and weld in a solid tube, re-finish.
Questionable considering ATF's current position on any part of a silencer, including silencer mounts, being considered silencers. 3 Taking a HK 416 (full auto) and removing the full auto guts and installing semi guts and the have the auto sear holes welded up and re finished.
Absolutely not. ATF's position is that a receiver that's an MG is forever an MG regardless of what is done to it, unless it's completely demilled (torch cut to specifications) and then rewelded sans full auto features. |
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For all of you who keep saying "have it removed from the registry" STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE. You can NEVER remove ANYTHING from the NFA Registry. You can have the Registry ammended to show a different configuration ie: changed from title2 back to a title1 but an item is never removed. BATFE will alsways show the history (ie: ALL of it's configurations and current status) of a weapon once it has been entered.
MadDog 
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For all of you who keep saying "have it removed from the registry" STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE. You can NEVER remove ANYTHING from the NFA Registry. You can have the Registry ammended to show a different configuration ie: changed from title2 back to a title1 but an item is never removed. BATFE will alsways show the history (ie: ALL of it's configurations and current status) of a weapon once it has been entered. MadDog How does this work for crossing state lines. Say moving permanently or visiting. Say I have a lower that has sentimental value to it (I have 2, both Cav, one was a wedding present from my wife, the other was a Cav-Aid) and it's been registered as a SBR. I then move to aa non-sbr state. I should just be able to replace the bbl w/ a >16" bbl and note it in the registry, correct? and it should be good to go. Then what if I move back to an SBR state? because it's in the registry would I still have to pay the tax? |
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For all of you who keep saying "have it removed from the registry" STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE. You can NEVER remove ANYTHING from the NFA Registry. You can have the Registry ammended to show a different configuration ie: changed from title2 back to a title1 but an item is never removed. BATFE will alsways show the history (ie: ALL of it's configurations and current status) of a weapon once it has been entered. MadDog How does this work for crossing state lines. Say moving permanently or visiting. Say I have a lower that has sentimental value to it (I have 2, both Cav, one was a wedding present from my wife, the other was a Cav-Aid) and it's been registered as a SBR. I then move to aa non-sbr state. I should just be able to replace the bbl w/ a >16" bbl and note it in the registry, correct? and it should be good to go. Then what if I move back to an SBR state? because it's in the registry would I still have to pay the tax? Yes, you would still have to pay the tax again. |
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For all of you who keep saying "have it removed from the registry" STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE. You can NEVER remove ANYTHING from the NFA Registry. You can have the Registry ammended to show a different configuration ie: changed from title2 back to a title1 but an item is never removed. BATFE will alsways show the history (ie: ALL of it's configurations and current status) of a weapon once it has been entered. MadDog How about "revert to Title I (non-NFA) status"? Semantics aside, the operative point is in some cases an NFA item can be changed or reverted to non-NFA status, in other cases it can't under current interpretations. |
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For all of you who keep saying "have it removed from the registry" STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE. You can NEVER remove ANYTHING from the NFA Registry. You can have the Registry ammended to show a different configuration ie: changed from title2 back to a title1 but an item is never removed. BATFE will alsways show the history (ie: ALL of it's configurations and current status) of a weapon once it has been entered. MadDog Once status changed, you can sell it as a title one weapon. |
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Quoted: Quoted: For all of you who keep saying "have it removed from the registry" STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE. You can NEVER remove ANYTHING from the NFA Registry. You can have the Registry ammended to show a different configuration ie: changed from title2 back to a title1 but an item is never removed. BATFE will alsways show the history (ie: ALL of it's configurations and current status) of a weapon once it has been entered. MadDog Once status changed, you can sell it as a title one weapon. ...but make sure that you keep secure copies of the notification that you sent to BATFE letting them know that you've permanently altered it to be a Title 1 firearm. (certified mail copy, notary, etc.) As many will attest, the NFA registry is less than perfect and this raises some particular concern if you ever sell a firearm you've converted from Title 2 to Title 1. Example - let's say you permanently attach a fake can to a registered SBR, notify BATFE that it's altered to be Title 1, and then you sell it to Joe Smith. Joe Smith has the gun for a year and then decides that the fake can looks silly and saws it off, creating an illegal SBR. Joe Smith brings his illegal SBR to a range, gets arrested and says, "I didn't cut it off, that's how I bought it." During the investigation, BATFE gets contacted because of the claims and because YOUR name is still engraved on the firearm... what happens if BATFE can't find the letter? All of a sudden it looks a lot like you sold someone a Title 2 firearm. Not good. The easy answer would be that BATFE would provide a return letter stating that they have amended the registry, but of the folks that I know who have contacted BATFE for this purpose, they have not received anything in return. |
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ATF says, in the ATF NFA handbood, that an machine gun reciever (or registered conversion parts) are the only title II weapons that are title II all by themselves... all other are title II by configuration. If they are no longer in a title II configuration, they are non-NFA.
So, if you put a 17 inch barrel on an SBR, it is no longer an SBR. |
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eodinert: If you believe that, then try putting a 16" or longer upper on an SBR'd AR lower and see what happens when you try and sell it as a title1 gun to lets say, a gun shop. I would bet the farm if the shop runs a check on the sereal number with BATFE to see if you are the legal owner it will show up as an SBR even though you just slapped a 16" upper on it. What I was told by BATFE when I sold an SBR as a title 1 firearm (by changing the upper) was that it would revert to a title 1 ONLY AFTER I received my SIGNED request letter back from BATFE. I was also told that once I received my letter from them and the NFA Registry was "ammended" to show the change, if I or anyone else puts a short upper back on the lower it would instantly be an illegal, unregistered SBR without getting another Tax Stamp.
Do what you want, but I prefer to listen to BATFE. MadDog
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So, if you put a 17 inch barrel on an SBR, it is no longer an SBR. Your logic adds up, but in reality the BATF doesnt see it that way, physical configuration is trumped by registration in the NFA registery, you could put a 20 foot long barrel on it but if its a registered SBR its still and SBR, if you like call BATF and let them tell you the same thing. Bottom line is BATF makes the rules and you have to play by them, or you wont be playing at all. |
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Is it posible to take a class three weapon and deregister them to make it a non NFA weapon. My three examples would be: 1 Taking a SBS and adding 18" barrel to it. 2 Taking a silencer, gut it and weld in a solid tube, re-finish. 3 Taking a HK 416 (full auto) and removing the full auto guts and installing semi guts and the have the auto sear holes welded up and re finished. Yes on 1. No on 2 and 3. |
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ATF says, in the ATF NFA handbood, that an machine gun reciever (or registered conversion parts) are the only title II weapons that are title II all by themselves... all other are title II by configuration. If they are no longer in a title II configuration, they are non-NFA. So, if you put a 17 inch barrel on an SBR, it is no longer an SBR. what page? |
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ATF says, in the ATF NFA handbood, that an machine gun reciever (or registered conversion parts) are the only title II weapons that are title II all by themselves... all other are title II by configuration. If they are no longer in a title II configuration, they are non-NFA. So, if you put a 17 inch barrel on an SBR, it is no longer an SBR. what page? I commend you on being open to the possibility that I might actually be right. Page 10 says that a machine gun receiver is the only NFA gun that is NFA as a stripped receiver. Section 2.5, on page 21, discusses removal of a weapon from the scope of the NFA by, in the case of an SBR, putting a long barrel on it. |
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So, if you put a 17 inch barrel on an SBR, it is no longer an SBR. Your logic adds up, but in reality the BATF doesnt see it that way It's not my logic. It's their book. I'm not saying they won't arrest you, and throw you in jail for a million years. I'm saying their book says if you put a long barrel on an SBR, it's not an SBR. |
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eodinert: If you believe that, then try putting a 16" or longer upper on an SBR'd AR lower and see what happens when you try and sell it as a title1 gun to lets say, a gun shop. I would bet the farm if the shop runs a check on the sereal number with BATFE to see if you are the legal owner it will show up as an SBR even though you just slapped a 16" upper on it. What I was told by BATFE when I sold an SBR as a title 1 firearm (by changing the upper) was that it would revert to a title 1 ONLY AFTER I received my SIGNED request letter back from BATFE. I was also told that once I received my letter from them and the NFA Registry was "ammended" to show the change, if I or anyone else puts a short upper back on the lower it would instantly be an illegal, unregistered SBR without getting another Tax Stamp. Do what you want, but I prefer to listen to BATFE. MadDog How would the shop run the Serial number to see if he is the owner? Most states do not have registration. We cannot just call the ATF and run a serial number. The only serial numbers they have are NFA and crime weapons. They will not give out any info on NFA weapons unless it is registered to you. |
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For all of you who keep saying "have it removed from the registry" STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE. You can NEVER remove ANYTHING from the NFA Registry. You can have the Registry ammended to show a different configuration ie: changed from title2 back to a title1 but an item is never removed. BATFE will alsways show the history (ie: ALL of it's configurations and current status) of a weapon once it has been entered. MadDog How does this work for crossing state lines. Say moving permanently or visiting. Say I have a lower that has sentimental value to it (I have 2, both Cav, one was a wedding present from my wife, the other was a Cav-Aid) and it's been registered as a SBR. I then move to aa non-sbr state. I should just be able to replace the bbl w/ a >16" bbl and note it in the registry, correct? and it should be good to go. Then what if I move back to an SBR state? because it's in the registry would I still have to pay the tax? Based on one of the most recent letters, if you have a SBR AR and swap to a >16" barrel, it is not a SBR (since the barrel is >16) but it still is active in the registry. No problem to travel with this since it is a rifle, not a SBR. When in a SBR friendly state, file the 5320.20 for interstate transport of a SBR, then you are free to assemble as a SBR. But you can put a long barrel on it and not have to updated the registry and retax it. in fact, Id argue that even if you did update the registry and reactivated it, that is not a taxed transaction.... Just my best guess on that though. |
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Shizz: I don't get your question (or statement). Please elaborate. If I take any one of my SBR's or SBS across state lines regardless of whether I take the short upper off and put an upper greater that 16" on it, or swap my 14" 870 barrel for an 18" BATFE still considers it an SBR or SBS and I must file a 5320.20 form before thransporting. I also don't understand your comment on "re-taxing" an NFA item. I can change the uppers on my SBR all I want in any length configuration I want as long as I can put it back to the original length that was put down on my Form1. You only pay the NFA tax once, unless you have the Registry ammended to show it is now a title 1 and then at a later date want to SBR it again. In that case you would have to start the process all over again. I have been told this numerous times by agents at BATFE and have also been told "I don't care what our handbook says, unless the NFA Registry is ammended, it is still an NFA item".
Like I said, rather than try to argue what the handbook says, I will listen to BATFE. I have moved and transported a number of my NFA items numerous times and it has never been a hastle. MadDog
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eodinert: If you believe that, then try putting a 16" or longer upper on an SBR'd AR lower and see what happens when you try and sell it as a title1 gun to lets say, a gun shop. I would bet the farm if the shop runs a check on the sereal number with BATFE to see if you are the legal owner it will show up as an SBR even though you just slapped a 16" upper on it. What I was told by BATFE when I sold an SBR as a title 1 firearm (by changing the upper) was that it would revert to a title 1 ONLY AFTER I received my SIGNED request letter back from BATFE. I was also told that once I received my letter from them and the NFA Registry was "ammended" to show the change, if I or anyone else puts a short upper back on the lower it would instantly be an illegal, unregistered SBR without getting another Tax Stamp. Do what you want, but I prefer to listen to BATFE. MadDog Thats NOT what their own printed handbook says..... I go by whats in writing.... |
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