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Posted: 6/17/2014 8:20:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2014 8:22:59 PM EDT by mach1soldier]
Anyone using hodgdon titegroup or cfe pistol to load hot 147gn 9mm rounds.

The reason I ask is this. I am currently shooting a 1911 with match barrel at bowling pin tournaments. The 9mm isn't ideal but I'm not here to debate that. I'm trying to make do with what I have.

So far I have experimented up to 3.7 (over max!!!) grain of titegroup at 1.135 OAL. That is with a precision delta 147 grain bullet FMJ, tula primers, mixed brass. Hodgdon lists max at 3.6. Is hodgdon just really conservative?

The reason I ask is that the recoil is pretty light and the primers look great and supposedly I'm over max. The problem is I am looking for a little more oomph to push the pins off the table.

Any help or better ideas? Buying another gun is out of the question at the moment.

Edit: I have not messed with the CFE Pistol but looks like I may be able to get a little more velocity out of it....
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 5:09:38 AM EDT
I would guess you are OK. most loading manuals never even give loads for +P or certainly not +P+.

I wish there was a book that gave these loads and true 5.56 loads also.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 8:28:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2014 8:47:53 AM EDT by borderpatrol]
Titegroup isn't the best choice for heavier bullets, it's too fast imo. 950 fps is more or less full power loads with these bullets. Unless you have access to or own a chronograph it's impossible to know where you're at and thinking you have a safe maximum load is a long way from knowing it. Velocity variations in handgun ammo is substantial when changing components vs. published data. It's not unusual to be 100 fps +/- difference compared to any manual even when using identical components.

VithaVuori powders have produced the highest speeds published, I would try to locate a source for it.

BTW - Hodgdon data is the hottest published data source I reference, no other source list loads that hot.

edited to add load data from VihtaVuori - Lapua's site;

147 grain fmj
1.142" oal
N350 - 4.7 grains maximum - 1014 fps
3N37 - 4.9 grains maximum - 1008 fps

147 grain Hornady XTP
1,142" oal
N350 - 5.0 grains maximum - 1070 fps
3N37 - 5.1 grains maximum - 1052 fps
N105 - 6.4 grains maximum - 1108 fps
3N38 - 6.9 grains maximum - 1207 fps

I would suggest a heavier weight recoil spring for anything over 1000 fps. The 1100/1200 fps loads will require a heavier spring.

Link Posted: 6/18/2014 10:35:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 3:49:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2014 11:14:15 AM EDT by GarrettJ]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
OP, Google "9mm major", that's what you are trying to do.
View Quote

Except they usually run 124s for 9 Major.

And yes, try running a slower powder. I've gotten some impressive results using Blue Dot, but again with 124 gr. bullets.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 4:04:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 2:13:09 PM EDT
I like AA#7 under a 147gr Hornady as a practice load that equates well with my 147gr carry ammo.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 4:05:54 PM EDT
I am going to try Longshot when I find some. When Hodgdon data says max they mean it in my experience.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 4:29:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AJE:
I wouldn't be pushing the envelope with Titegroup... I wouldn't even try to go "hot" with it. Use fast powders like that for light loads.

Try some Power Pistol or other slower powders (in comparison).
View Quote

This. Titegroup is a great powder and I use it in a great deal of applications, but going for hot is not one of them. It's actually a great powder for light to moderate loads.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 4:48:15 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TeeRex:

This. Titegroup is a great powder and I use it in a great deal of applications, but going for hot is not one of them. It's actually a great powder for light to moderate loads.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TeeRex:
Originally Posted By AJE:
I wouldn't be pushing the envelope with Titegroup... I wouldn't even try to go "hot" with it. Use fast powders like that for light loads.

Try some Power Pistol or other slower powders (in comparison).

This. Titegroup is a great powder and I use it in a great deal of applications, but going for hot is not one of them. It's actually a great powder for light to moderate loads.


Agreed, not much of a spread between min- max loadings in any of the manuals, and can be very easy to go over the edge.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 7:46:40 PM EDT
Thanks guys for the help. I'm going to see what my other powder options are locally and see if I can't make a little hotter load. I will keep the titegroup for plinking loads.

Dryflash,

I checked out 9mm Major and found some really good loads for 147 gn bullets. The trick is going to be finding the powders for them.
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 10:47:56 PM EDT
Power Pistol seems to be the best powder for 147 gr 9mm lead rounds. I'm guessing that would hold true to jacketed also.
Link Posted: 6/20/2014 9:12:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/20/2014 9:33:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2014 9:34:15 AM EDT by MSUICEMAN]
i was going to say power pistol also... though they aren't my cup of tea, you can make one heckuva stout load with it (and quite a bit of muzzle flash(. but when i'm throwing 300+ rounds downrange each trip with my 9mm, I don't go anywhere near hot loads, especially in my sig p938. about mid range is all i ever get to, and I use a fast burning powder accordingly (AA5).
Link Posted: 6/20/2014 9:50:18 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TeeRex:

This. Titegroup is a great powder and I use it in a great deal of applications, but going for hot is not one of them. It's actually a great powder for light to moderate loads.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TeeRex:
Originally Posted By AJE:
I wouldn't be pushing the envelope with Titegroup... I wouldn't even try to go "hot" with it. Use fast powders like that for light loads.

Try some Power Pistol or other slower powders (in comparison).

This. Titegroup is a great powder and I use it in a great deal of applications, but going for hot is not one of them. It's actually a great powder for light to moderate loads.


^ This.
Slower powders tend to be more 'forgiving' with a less drastic rise into pressure spikes. This doesn't mean you can't reach a power factor of 140 or so, which is in the ballpark of most SD loads (~145PF+), but 'hot' is really a vague definition. Can you translate it into velocity or Power factor (bullet wt * velocity / 1000)?

Someone mentioned Major loads - please note 9mm Major loads are absolutely not meant to be shot out of random off the shelf guns and barrels!
Link Posted: 6/20/2014 11:23:48 AM EDT
I use 5.0 grains of Ramshot Silhouette with 147 grain jacketed bullets.

It gives good velocity and is low flash.
Link Posted: 6/20/2014 12:02:53 PM EDT
I have 147 grain loads using 3.7 of titegroup, but that is about as hot as I will go with titegroup.

I saw some cases split (not mine) with a similar load and key holing as well (factory glock barrel).
Link Posted: 6/20/2014 12:34:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/20/2014 12:34:52 PM EDT by mach1soldier]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rtpguy:


^ This.
Slower powders tend to be more 'forgiving' with a less drastic rise into pressure spikes. This doesn't mean you can't reach a power factor of 140 or so, which is in the ballpark of most SD loads (~145PF+), but 'hot' is really a vague definition. Can you translate it into velocity or Power factor (bullet wt * velocity / 1000)?

Someone mentioned Major loads - please note 9mm Major loads are absolutely not meant to be shot out of random off the shelf guns and barrels!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rtpguy:
Originally Posted By TeeRex:
Originally Posted By AJE:
I wouldn't be pushing the envelope with Titegroup... I wouldn't even try to go "hot" with it. Use fast powders like that for light loads.

Try some Power Pistol or other slower powders (in comparison).

This. Titegroup is a great powder and I use it in a great deal of applications, but going for hot is not one of them. It's actually a great powder for light to moderate loads.


^ This.
Slower powders tend to be more 'forgiving' with a less drastic rise into pressure spikes. This doesn't mean you can't reach a power factor of 140 or so, which is in the ballpark of most SD loads (~145PF+), but 'hot' is really a vague definition. Can you translate it into velocity or Power factor (bullet wt * velocity / 1000)?

Someone mentioned Major loads - please note 9mm Major loads are absolutely not meant to be shot out of random off the shelf guns and barrels!


my factory 147 ammo will shoot 950-975 FPS. So ideally a little above that would be great. I know I'm limited by the caliber but it will be at least six months before my .40 and .45 are ready for competition.
Link Posted: 6/20/2014 2:15:54 PM EDT
You could use lead SWC's for the bowling pins.
The sharp edge bites into the pin if hit off center and dumps all the energy into knocking it off, whereas a FMJ glances off because of the round nose.

I just saw a news release from Missouri Bullet Co. saying they have them now in 9mm. I forget what weight they are but you can look at their site.

IMO a SWC is best for bowling pins.
Link Posted: 6/20/2014 3:58:54 PM EDT
Swap the 9mm barrel for a 38 Super barrel... go ramped and you can play easily with 357 Mag type loads..

Or,,,, swap top end of pistol for 40 or 45

My 1911 is 38 Super with NOWLIN ramped barrel,, my 2nd upper is WILSON COMBAT 38 Super with ramped barrel and 2 port comp
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