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Posted: 12/19/2002 6:44:12 PM EST
I've got $1500 (whats left of bonus) to spend on my toys. I want a 5.56/.223 semi-auto that takes high cap mags. I already have a post-ban bushy 20' and RR m4, 4 ak's 7.62 & 5.45, 2 fal's, and a cz75b. I realize that an sar-3 would be a logical choice, but I want something different. Any suggestions would be appreciated to spend my money.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 6:50:47 PM EST
If you want a cool, interesting, and different toy, go for the M96. If you want a pseudo-investment, buy a pre-ban AR.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:07:15 PM EST
I'm going to go ahead and plug my own M96, buy, buy!

gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=6620035
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:22:38 PM EST
Is there something wrong with the DAEWOO's, because it looks like a hell of a weapon( other than its made in KOREA) if it had an optic's rail integrated into the upper reciever. I've never handled one but it looks similar to a GALIL. I know nothing about a GALIL or DAEWOO, but the concept looks somewhat intelligent. Also, can a post-ban DAEWOO be converted to a pistol grip stock via parts count.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:30:44 PM EST
The Daewoo is the natural evolution of the AR design... a wonderful AR/AK hybrid. Great, amazing, awesome firearm. I don't see the point in spending the money on the preban since the prices are so high, but postban deals can be had.

You can put an Ace skeleton stock and a pistol grip on it if you swap a few parts. Easy enough to do since it takes an AR trigger group.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:30:55 PM EST
The Daewoo's are very nice guns, and ACE (www.riflestocks.com) makes a post ban stock and grip set for it with the necessary parts to be legal.

The main problem with any of the Daewoo's is getting parts if they need repair.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 7:47:11 PM EST
Thanks's for the info guys. I might have to look into these DAEWOO guns. The ar-180b with chromed lined barrel and picatinny rail is who knows how many years away. Please don't tell me the DAEWOO's are better than an AR-15 though.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 8:08:34 PM EST
M-96!
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 8:18:29 PM EST


More fun than a Daewoo

Link Posted: 12/20/2002 7:27:31 AM EST
If you're looking for something different how about ZM weapons?
If you could stretch your budget a bit pick up a pre-ban AR lower and get the pre-ban upper?
Or if there is no give in the budget get a post-ban upper and slap it on one of your lowers?
www.zmweapons.com
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 8:18:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By ddc:
If you're looking for something different how about ZM weapons?
If you could stretch your budget a bit pick up a pre-ban AR lower and get the pre-ban upper?
Or if there is no give in the budget get a post-ban upper and slap it on one of your lowers?
www.zmweapons.com



Is it even possible to still buy from ZM? I emailed them a while ago and never got a response. Their webpage hasnt been updated in over a year. I read on here that they were basically out of the civilian market now. If anyone finds out something I would love to know.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 12:01:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By G-CODE:
Thanks's for the info guys. I might have to look into these DAEWOO guns. The ar-180b with chromed lined barrel and picatinny rail is who knows how many years away. Please don't tell me the DAEWOO's are better than an AR-15 though.



I must be one of the few that don't think highly of the Daewoo's. The Front sight sucks and its impossible to get critical spare parts.

They are different - but better? Hardly, if they were they would be outselling the AR15 system... But yes you can get a pistol grip and stock for them (see Ace).

Personally I'd for that M96 Recon Carbine if your'e looking for something differnent

Its a bit heavy compared to the M4, but it balances well. its made of stainless and features a chrome lined barrel (!!). Its a much better execution than the Dawoo design and parts are available.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 2:29:34 PM EST
I shot the M96 before it was banned in Calif. It's a nice piece of equipment. Robinson is adding alot of add-on gizmos for the gee-wizz factor. I would get one except that "Gray-out" Davis and my wife are standing in the way.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 3:17:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
The Daewoo is the natural evolution of the AR design... a wonderful AR/AK hybrid. Great, amazing, awesome firearm. I don't see the point in spending the money on the preban since the prices are so high, but postban deals can be had.

You can put an Ace skeleton stock and a pistol grip on it if you swap a few parts. Easy enough to do since it takes an AR trigger group.




All of whis is true BUT it was Heavy and lacked good fit and finish. The killer for me was the trigger, It felt like a brick being slid endelessly over packed gravel
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 3:20:52 PM EST
Buy an M1A, some USGI mags from Cole Dist, ya can;t go wrong!
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 8:03:18 PM EST
First off, they have not been able to imprt Daewoos into the country for more than a decade if I recall... so guess what, you can't compare it to AR sales as a basis for judging on quality.

Yes, spares are in short supply, then again, haven't heard too many people NEED them.

Factory fire control group may not be the greatest, mine seems ok, but an AR15 FCG will fit in perfectly.

Sights are not as adjustable as the AR, but plenty accurate.

Where the Daewoo kills the AR is in the gas system. Every bit as reliable as the AK.

The only people I have heard speak poorly of them are those who don't own them.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 3:22:50 AM EST
I own a pre-ban Daewoo K2 (the pre-bans are also known as AR100, and Max-2 depending on importer). The trigger on it is far and away better than any AR trigger I've tried. As for strength and durability, it is the standard ROK service rifle. They used the M16A1, which they locally produced under license brom Colt. They proceeded to develop the K2 by combining the AK gas system with M16 technology of forged alloy receivers. I've seen them in use in Korea, and I own one here in the states. They are not a weak rifle by any stretch of the imagination.

Accuracy on mine is better than either of my pre-ban Colt ARs. The sights are actually BETTER than the M16/ARs from the same time frame (e.g. the A1 type) being adjustable for both windage and elevation with range compensation as well. They had an adjustable, range marked rear sight before the M16A2 was adopted. There is an optic rail that fits right on the top of the upper. All uppers are already set-up to take it.

The gas system is straight AK. It also has a gas regulator like the FNC that allows you to "give it more gas" as the rifle gets dirty. You can also shut off the gas completely.

M16 bayonet, bipod, etc work on the rifle. Many AR parts will work straight, some with modifications, and some not at all. If spare parts are an issue with you, then it's an issue. I've never broken an AR, so parts availability hasn't helped me with any of mine.

There's alot of little things I like about the K2 that I prefer over the AR. The side folding stock is one of them. This is a regular feeling stock that folds and locks into place. Both open and closed. It locks strongly and there is no wobble, nor odd feeling. When it's out, it's just like a full stock rifle. When it's folded, the gun fits in a sports bag easily.

I do not own a post-ban, so I can't comment on them. Possibly they are of different quality, but I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one.

Of your choices I think:

Robarm M96-
I think this is a cool set-up, but I still have a hard time seeing how a post-ban can be worth $1400. It doesn't fold, it doesn't hide flash, it doesn't take a bayonet, it doesn't do much of anything that any other post-ban does. Great gun, but I wish it came along earlier before the ban.

Pre-ban AR-15-
For the same cost as the M96 you can at least have a pre-ban. You can check the rest of this board for good reasons to own an AR.

Pre-ban Daewoo-
Costs less than the AR and has more evil features that actually work better (i.e. a stock that truly folds). Shoots WAY cleaner than an AR. Sucks for spare parts.

AR-180B-
Postban gun, but at least the price reflects that. I used to have a pre-ban AR-180 and it was a great gun with a dopey stock system. I actually like the post-ban gun better because it has a solid stock. It's an Armalite, so at least there's a quality factor right there from the get-go. Shoots just as clean as the Daewoo, and probably just as well as the M96. As it takes AR stuff (mags and lower parts) parts is not an issue. Of your four choices, this one is probably the "best bang for teh buck".

$1500 is alot of money. Take a good look around at other guns, and do some shopping once you decide. You should find something you like for that.

Ross
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 6:49:21 AM EST
I have a pre-ban ArmaLite AR-180 with a flat-top, carbine upper. Pretty neat.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 8:25:37 AM EST
kickmyllama,
I'm afraid I know nothing about the status of ZM Weapons. I've always been intrigued by their product but the high price has prevented me from doing any substantive research.
I may be guilty about posting on a topic I'm not up to speed on; my apologies.
I'll start another thread and see if we can get any feedback on what is going on with ZM Weapons.
Good shooting.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 9:48:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By ddc:
kickmyllama,
I'm afraid I know nothing about the status of ZM Weapons. I've always been intrigued by their product but the high price has prevented me from doing any substantive research.
I may be guilty about posting on a topic I'm not up to speed on; my apologies.
I'll start another thread and see if we can get any feedback on what is going on with ZM Weapons.
Good shooting.


No need to apologize. I was hoping you might know something that I didnt. Hopefully your new topic will give us some insight.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 10:30:08 AM EST
The Daewoo DR-200 isn't a pre-ban. Only those marked AR-100, K-1 or K-2 are preban. Here is a copy of an ATF Letter Ruling on the subject. www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter25.txt
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 10:34:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2002 10:53:40 AM EST by Master_Blaster]
Someone once posted here that the ZM's FA performance was somewhat degraded by the fact that the guide rod that the recoil springs ride on gets very hot & affects the springs' temper, changing their k-value (force constant). This, in turn, reduced their reliability. OTOH, semi- wasn't an issue.

Of course, this is 2nd hand info., but that's what was stated.

If the Daewoo K2 had a 4-quad picatinney rail w/ replacable sights, I'd be all over it. Of course, if the AW ban should sunset (I don't believe this will be allowed to occur), the M96 could get coolified in major ways: folding stock, flash hider, etc., etc. Their 7.62 model, w/ its quad rails & AK break looks sweet. I hear there's a folding stock for it, but only if you aren't a member of the peon class.

Link Posted: 12/21/2002 2:18:36 PM EST
When did Armalite start chrome lining the bore on the AR180b? I've read nothing to that effect anywhere. That was one of the reasons it was so reasonably priced and the one reason I wouldn't buy one. But if they stared to chrome line the bore I may start looking for one.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 3:40:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By FALShootist:
When did Armalite start chrome lining the bore on the AR180b? I've read nothing to that effect anywhere. That was one of the reasons it was so reasonably priced and the one reason I wouldn't buy one. But if they stared to chrome line the bore I may start looking for one.



Not yet available - I'm 'guessing' the chrome won't be available until late 2003.
Link Posted: 12/21/2002 10:34:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
The Daewoo DR-200 isn't a pre-ban. Only those marked AR-100, K-1 or K-2 are preban. Here is a copy of an ATF Letter Ruling on the subject. www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter25.txt



Daewoo prebans are marked:
K2
Max-II
AR-100
These three are the same rifle (side folder, AK gas system) from different importers

K1A1
Max-I
AR-110C
These three are the same rifle (telestock, AR gas system) from different importers

The post-bans are:
DR-200
This is a post-ban K2 with thumbhole

DR-300
This is a DR-200 in 7.62x39

Ross

Link Posted: 12/22/2002 4:51:23 AM EST
The Daewoo K1s that I've seen had the Daewoo AK style gas system with a wire type retractable stock. I owned a Daewoo marked AR-100 which had a side folding stock. Haven't seen any with the Max markings. I really liked the AR-100, was just spooked of breaking something like an extractor and not being able to replace it. Kimber in the late 90's was importing parts for them but stopped. I paid $1,000 for it in 98% condition in late 1999.
Link Posted: 12/22/2002 6:11:58 PM EST
I suppose the gas tube may be the "A1" difference then.

I've never seen a K1, nor have I or anyone who's been into Daewoos ever heard of one imported either. Neither has any of the importers that imported them, as they only offered the AR gas tube system with the wire collapsing stock. They may not have advertised them, and I certainly have not seen everything there is to see.

If you've ever see another "K1" with an AK gas system, let me know and I'll buy it on the spot, as it'd be the best variation I could think of.

You can use either upper on either lower oddly enough, but the K2 upper won't allow the K1A1 lower wire stock to collapse. Possibly what you saw was a combination.

The designations are the only differeence in the models imported. The Max-II was exactly the same as the AR-100 and K2, just with a different marking and a different importer. I don't know why they changed it each time. Maybe from some preceived marketing effort. They are all the same and value isn't any difference.

The ROK's use the K2 designation.

The lack of parts does suck, but I haven't broken anything on an AR yet either, so the great availability of AR parts hasn't helped me there. I consider the K2 to be a stronger design. Many people will cite the parts problem as a reason for them to not own the gun, but they don't have any spares on-hand for any of their guns, or they'll own Rugers, etc that have as bad parts availability.

The folding stock is a great feature, and a good reason to own a pre-ban, but unless you really need that feature, it's probably cheaper to go with the DR-200/ACE system.

Ross
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 3:47:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/23/2002 3:50:22 AM EST by Zoomer]
www.world.guns.ru/assault/as32-e.htm I know it's not much,but this is all that I've been able to find on the Daewoo,anybody seen any more?
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 3:56:12 AM EST

This is what I was referring to. I've never owned a K1. Does the rifle in this pic have the AR style gas system? It's labeled as a K1 on the site where the pic came from.
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 9:55:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By W-W:
Buy an M1A, some USGI mags from Cole Dist, ya can;t go wrong!

Gee, what part of

I want a 5.56/.223 semi-auto that takes high cap mags
does an M1A fulfull?
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 1:48:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By W-W:
Buy an M1A, some USGI mags from Cole Dist, ya can;t go wrong!

Gee, what part of

I want a 5.56/.223 semi-auto that takes high cap mags
does an M1A fulfull?



LOL Larry, isn't it funny how people on this board often answer the questions they want to, not the one asked?
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 3:13:15 PM EST
I would probally go with the daewoo.

AK gas, Ar mags, can be found for as little as $600.

Tho them Robarms look really damm sexy.

Link Posted: 12/24/2002 8:45:26 AM EST
Another vote for the M96. I love mine. The barrel interchangeability (not to mention general modularity) is what sold it, for me.



It is definitely something different.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 5:09:28 PM EST
FWIW, for 1500 you could probably get a post ban AR15 AND an AR180, if you looked around.
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 9:37:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By W-W:
Buy an M1A, some USGI mags from Cole Dist, ya can;t go wrong!

Gee, what part of

I want a 5.56/.223 semi-auto that takes high cap mags
does an M1A fulfull?



LOL Larry, isn't it funny how people on this board often answer the questions they want to, not the one asked?

Ain't that the truth. A thread entitled 'Should I get a Sig or an HK or (insert any other brand here)' always has someone say 'get a Glock', when that was not one of the choices. Or, 'Should I buy Rock River, ArmaLite, or (any brand but Bushmaster)' always gets a 'buy a Bushmaster' response. Nothing to do with the question asked, just answering the question that only they heard in their head.
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 1:21:28 PM EST
check out Robinson Armament's site. my next long arm will be either a Recon or VEPR K in .223
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 1:39:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
world.guns.ru/assault/daewoo_k1.jpg
This is what I was referring to. I've never owned a K1. Does the rifle in this pic have the AR style gas system? It's labeled as a K1 on the site where the pic came from.



I looked at the pic and it appears exactly the same as the K1A1, Max-I, AR-110C, that were offered in the US. They have the AR gas system. Have you seen one first-hand with the AK type gas system?

Ross
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 1:58:52 PM EST


I looked at the pic and it appears exactly the same as the K1A1, Max-I, AR-110C, that were offered in the US. They have the AR gas system. Have you seen one first-hand with the AK type gas system?

Ross



How can it have an AR type gas system? Where is the buffer spring? The recoil spring must be mounted over the bolt AK style. I'm guessing there is a piston like the K2 as well. Why do you think it has an AR gas system? What am I missing?
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 6:55:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 1:52:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:


I looked at the pic and it appears exactly the same as the K1A1, Max-I, AR-110C, that were offered in the US. They have the AR gas system. Have you seen one first-hand with the AK type gas system?

Ross



How can it have an AR type gas system? Where is the buffer spring? The recoil spring must be mounted over the bolt AK style. I'm guessing there is a piston like the K2 as well. Why do you think it has an AR gas system? What am I missing?



You're guess is half-right. There IS an AK type return spring on the rear of the bolt carrier. There IS NO piston. It uses an AR type gas tube that runs back to the bolt carrier and operates the gun the same as an AR. Remember that the buffer/return spring system and the gas system are two entirely separate systems. You don't need one to have the other. As long as there's a system for the bolt to go back (AR gas type) and a system for the bolt to go forward (AK return spring type) then that's all you need. You could have an AR type buffer and an AK piston if that's what you wanted, and it would work fine as well (and was done in the 80's with the Rhino conversion on the AR-15).

Why do I think it has an AR gas system? Simply because that's what they have. This is not internet stories and rumor, but comes from my personal experience with Daewoos of all types for over 15years. EVERY K1A1 I have personally examined had an AR type gas system. That's not to say I've seen every K1A1 in the US, but every K1A1 that I've seen had an AR gas tube. How many have you seen disassembled to the point of being able to see the gas system?

Why did Daewoo use a gas tube instead of a piston? One theory is that the shorter K1A1 simply ran better with the gas tube system than a piston. Another theory is that the K1A1 was the first try at their own rifle, and they used the AR gas tube system because they were familiar with it after producing M16A1s for decades under license. It would be natural to go with what you know, and what you know how to do. The ROK Army wanted an AK type gas piston, so the later K2 had that feature.

Either one makes sense, but the bottom line is the K1A1 has a gas tube.

I'll try to find some pics to clarify it.

Ross
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 1:27:00 PM EST
Ross,

Thanks for the clarification. I was ass-uming that the K1(A1) had the same gas system as the Ar-100 (K2) that I owned.
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 2:08:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
Ross,

Thanks for the clarification. I was ass-uming that the K1(A1) had the same gas system as the Ar-100 (K2) that I owned.



I wish! It'd be one kick-ass system then. Sort of a Daewoo Kirnkov...LOL. No one's really been able to make sense out of why they did it that way, but the two theories above as good as any.

There's nothing really wrong with the gas-tube system anyway. It's just dirty. it probably does make for a lighter gun though. The K1A1 is supposed to be just as reliable and accurate as it's "pistoned" sister.

Ross
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 8:26:33 AM EST
I have had a DR200 for about five years now and I love it, accuracy is great, function is flawless. Great rifle!.... But I love may ar every bit as much.
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