Was looking at these on rmr bullets anyone have any experience on reloading these for 223? Cant find much data below 35 gr bullets.

http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/223-32-grain-SS190-Black-Tip-AP-PULLED-1000-count-1000-blacktipss190.htm

I bought some of these. Based on the data I found, I will load the following

H335 27-29gr

TAC  28-30gr

CFE223 28-30gr

I will probably just go in half or full grain increments and watch carefully. The TAC data seems to be the best available, so I will shoot them first and then compare speeds. If things look dicey, I will just hold the rest. I have a rifle with a superbolt that I test loads in that I feel pretty comfortable with as long as the loads are within the realm of reasonableness.


Data I found to work with for powders that I have on hand on which that is based:

TAC 34 VNE HP 27.4 3,636 30.4 3,974 54,960 2.125

36 Varmint Grenade Ramshot TAC 27.5 3,681
Remarks: starting load
36 Varmint Grenade Ramshot TAC 29.5 3,876
Remarks: maximum load

Bullet Hornady
BulletWeight 35 grs
Powder Hodgdon H335
PowderWeight 29 grs
Primer Winchester SR
Brass Make Winchester
Barrel Length 24 (inches)
C.O.L 2.125 (inches)
Velocity 3990 fps
Group 0.295 (inches by 3 shot at 100 yds)
Submitted Date 1/10/2004 11:20:00 AM
Submitted By [email protected]

35 GR. NOS BT LF  Hodgdon  H335  .224"  2.280"  25.7  3647  44,600 PSI  27.9  3885  53,200 PSI

40 GR. NOS BT  Hodgdon  CFE 223  .224"  2.280"  27.5  3457  40,600 PSI  29.0  3667  48,200 PSI

I did some preliminary testing on these today. Nothing too serious, but I wanted to look at velocity and load ranges in the ar. I loaded per the above suggestions in full grain increments with an additional half grain step in between the last two. This gave me a total of 60 rounds (plus a few extra loaded as well). Rifle was a 20" ar with an fn chf ss barrel. 1/7 twist. All brass was mixed LC NATO head stamp processed on 1050 with no additional prep. Primers were wolf kvm223.

This is an Moa shooter, but accuracy on all charges was poor (5-6 Moa). This could be due to the twist rate or it could also be an oal issue. I believe it was most likely a twist rate issue, but don't have a 1/12 gun with optics to compare with. I will have to try to make due with a 1/9 in the future.

I loaded all rounds based on a comparison of the ogives with known loads, and came up with loaded rounds of about 2.22". These bullets have an aluminum core and are dimensionally not far off of 55 fmj bullets.

Control group was Remington umc 55. Mean velocity was 3024. Sd was 42. This should give a reference point for others to use with different rifles/barrels/lengths.

The tac data was in fact the best as I suspected. Coincidentally, my tac data was also the most accurate collected. While a nearly full case, 30 gr also wasn't a max load. In fact, all suggested loads in my earlier post were probably under 50k psi. There is more headroom on all, if you can squeeze it in the case.

TAC
28gr: mean-3685 sd-12
29gr: mean-3794 sd-21
29.5: mean-3826 sd-24
30: mean-3885 sd-28

H335
Major chrono errors with these due to shifting light and a cheap chrono. Best i got was
28gr: 3650
28.5: 3750
29: 3800

Due to density, I may come back to h335.

CFE223
28: errors (all sounded weak)
29: more errors (some read 4000+, some 3500, other 2800)
29.5: velocities consistently in the 3350 fps range?
30: velocities consistently in the 3400 fps range?

Chrono issues clearly cropped up to ruin things later in the afternoon, but tac came away a clear winner. H335 showed promise however due to the fact I think I can get more of it in the Case and I seem to have headroom.

Regardless, my next step is to load additional ladders in between 29.5-31 of tac with some different oals and see if we can't tighten the groups up to around 2-4 Moa, which would make me satisfied.

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Ronn, as you noted and realized, your 1x7 twist is inadequate for that
tiny of  a bullet. 1x12, or even a 1x14 would be optimal.

Know anyone with a .22-250 that reloads?

ETA: What is the length of the bullet?

I'm not too experienced at reloading, so i defer a lot to the books for assistance.  I also got some of these and based on the math stated in ABCs of Reloading (greenhill formula), i came out with a 1-9 twist rate.



.834 (length of bullet) / .224(diameter of bullet) = 3.72 (length of bullet in caliber)
150 / 3.72 = 40.32
40.32 X .224 = 9.03 (twist rate)

Am i doing the math on that incorrectly?

I would be worried about the aluminum base coming apart at high velocity. Did you shoot any at 15 yards to see if the bullet is coming apart? That would explain the chrono issues as well.  I would try something faster burning than Tac.

Go to ramshots website. There is better load data for a lighter bullet.

these are .223 not .224?

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Mine mic at .224

They are not coming apart. My targets got heavily sprayed with spall off of some steel plates that some kids with a PSL and Krink decided to unload on right before I went to take them down so they look generally awful, but the holes themselves look good (except for the pattern).

These bullets are long enough that my swag is that a 1/9 would probably be sufficient. In fact, I think the accuracy at a lower velocity might actually be acceptable with a 1/7, although that would kill my personal interest in the round.

This particular rifle likes loads to be hot before accuracy comes in (e.g. 55 grain hornadys shoot ~3 MOA with 25gr TAC and ~1 MOA above 27.5). I'll load some more for 10 rounds groups off a sled and see what happens. Unfortunately, the only personal rifle that I own that is not a 1/7 twist is an su-16c. It is not an accuracy champion even after putting the Red Lion rail system on it. My father in law has a DPMS sportical that is 1/9 twist also, but it just has an eotech. Short of remounting optics, I don't have access to anything really optimal. I have a friend with an original Colt SP1 -- if he has an optic mount that works, I'll beg to borrow.

Also, for those discussing a 22-250, imagine the barrel burner you could make with that (5000 fps?).

I will measure them out, but as noted in my post, they are very close to a 55 grain FMJ. I believe somewhere around 2.2" - 2.22" seats the bullets correctly, and allows for the full neck of the case to grab the bullet's full bearing surface. They are light due to the primarily aluminum core (they are not like the 165gr m2ap 30 cal bullets you can buy where the steel penetrator comprises everything under the jacket).  I will post up some pictures after I load some more. I would also section one but don't have my tooling set up and won't for some time. I'll mail a couple to anyone who will volunteer.

Ok, so I did some more testing with these today. I used the same rifle (20" FN SS CHF 1/7 barrel, MI SSG215 rail, Geisselle SSA-E, 4-14x mil/mil scope on max power). I had hoped to get a 1/12 Colt SP1 to work with to see if these had any potential, but my buddy who has a few ended up spending an extra day in Disney so we couldn't meet up. I will try to get one this week, stick an ACOG on it (as that's the only optic think I have that will work with them) and try some more of these in the next couple of weekends out of a better host. I also have another friend with a ps90 I could borrow to look at them out of a 5.7, but I have no suitable powder or dies.  

Conditions were 75 degrees, chrono in full sun under partly cloudy skies. Groups were shot off a bench with front and rear bags. Unfortunately, no photos of the set up. Range was fairly crowded, with lots of people just turning money into noise.

For background:

Rounds being loaded (note the relatively normal COAL)



30gr of TAC is a max load because no more will fit in the case!



30gr of H335 still leaves a little room to spare, but not much (and not that it matters since it patterned like a buck shot)





CHRONO CALIBRATION DATA


Wolf 22 (Ruger 10/22, 16" barrel, no suppressor)

1029
1031
1059
ERR
1044

No photo, but not a bad group for a 22 with an aimpoint micro (~3.5" at 100)

Remington UMC 55gr

2898
2930
2904
2886
2956



Ppu 69
2732
2754
2743
2760
2783



Norma 77 (this is great stuff)

2549
2629
2574
2578
2549



Ss190
29.5 tac

3787
3766
3787
3798
3809



30gr TAC

3864
3921
3875
3875
3864



H335

29gr

3820
3921
3875
3820
3875



29.5gr

3875
Err
3898
3898
3887



30gr

3968
Err
3933
3968
3898

Not sure where the photo of this went, but I wrote this down as 7+ MOA in my data book.

Concluding, I shot a second control group of the Norma to ensure I hadn't blown at the groups with the shakes or anything. I also wanted to see if my velocities were being affected by chamber soak. I definitely think this group could have been much better. The far left shot broke right as a piece of hot brass from a neighboring shooter went down the front of my shirt!

Norma Control String 2

2640
2628
(not sure where the other velocity numbers went, but it does show that an increase)



Bonus load data:
64 grain 223  Gold Dot over 26.4 TAC
3093
3053
3072
No group photo but a 10 shot group was about 1.6 MOA (I also didn't record all velocities as this has been a go-to defensive load for me for a couple of years).

factory ss190 muzzle velocity is 2350 fps, correct?

the fn 5.7 pistol has a twist rate of 1:9.

you are running these 50 percent faster? in a faster twist barrel?

and you worked up a ladder in 1 grain increments?

any chance you missed your accuracy node down low where the gun barely functions?

if it were me, that's where I would be looking for a load.

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I'm not really interested in these at a lower velocity after seeing the rather unimpressive gel shots from the 5.7. I was hopeful that they would shoot around 4 MOA regardless of this, which I could call acceptable for pulled bullets with a specialty purpose. I'll try them in a 1/12 when I can, and if those group, then I'll try my own gel test. If they either (a) don't group then or (b) are unimpressive in gel, you'll probably see some come up for sale in the EE.

EDIT: The "ladder" was primarily to see if it was possible to hit a max load with these and, if so, where it was due to the lack of published data. I think this shows you can probably fill up a case full of most standard 223 powder without pressure issues, which was the point I was looking to demonstrate.

I bought 500 of these to see what kind of a load I can work-up for my ps90. I believe these are the original bullets for the P90.

You may need to go with a faster powder. I have been thinking this and after seeing your efforts I am almost sure of it. But, the intent is for close range carbine use for me.

I borrowed the only 1/12 twist upper that I could find, which was from a late 60's Colt SP1 from a friend. The upper had a carry handle, and the only optics mount we could find that might work was ultimately not compatible. Therefore, all groups were shot with irons at 50 yards, which was realistically what I thought my eyesight was capable of sustaining. I am not an iron sight shooter. Further complicating things, I didn't have anything suitable on hand for control loads, so I was forced to rely only on UMC 55 (which is a poor performer in my experience). This cumulatively resulted in accuracy was about the same as my 1/7 with a scope (6 MOA give or take), so I realistically think you can get this to about 3-4 MOA with a suitably built rifle (1/12 twist barrel with optic). I deem that acceptable for something that's true AP if you have some complimenting loads for other purposes. I have some 55 grain TBBC bullets stashed, so I will probably build one of these up at some point in the future and use a combination of AP, TBBC and M193.  

Also, my ultimate conclusion on load workup is that it is probably best to go with a full case of anything on the faster end of the 223 spectrum. I had nothing close to pressure signs with any of these loads.

Thanks for the write ups ronn.

Thought about going backwards and see
what they do at a slower speed?

I may try that when I get some time. Right now I'm disappointed with what I'm getting, so I'm going to spend some time with 77's out of the AR and 150's out of my 308's. I've also got 300 blackout stuff to play with as well.

I'll probably come back to these later when I've got those projects complete.

I was able to get a carry handle mount for the sp1. It looks ridiculous with a target scope mounted about 4 inches over axis, but I'll load some h335 up and shoot them with my other ladders sometime soon.

Someone should try IMR4198 with these bullets

Tag, I just got a few in today. I bought some to play around with.


Anyone know of the internal construction of these? Side by side to 5.56 M995 projectiles they are nearly the same size, but much lighter. I'm assuming the steel penetrator is pretty small.

Aluminum core, copper jacket, small (5 gr?) hardened steel penetrator in the nose.

I shot some more of these through the SP1 without much luck. At the same time, the gun grouped everything like a scatter gun (5-6 MOA) so it may just be an old, shot out barrel. This is still on my radar, but not high.

Well I cut two in half. Forgot to take pictures which im mad about because I actually did a decent job.

Anyway these look exactly like a ss109 but with AL instead of Pb. Looks like it shares the same penetrator.

Kind of dissappoitning and overrated IMHO. Not really AP name worthy.

I think the penetrator is hardened, but I don't know that for certain.

I belive it is, it looks EXACTLY like the M855 penetrators I have cut out. One thing I did notice though, is that my dremel chewed up the steel penetrator on one of them pretty good. And I wasn't dremeling a lot of applying pressure. Which leads me to believe its not as hard.