User Panel
Posted: 11/1/2009 7:08:31 PM EDT
I know very little about lathes but am the kind of guy that just likes to jump in and get my feet wet. If I get good enough I'll send in a check to the ATF and try my hand at a form 1 suppressor.
Is there really any reason to buy one larger then 20" to start out with? What about one with a mill combo? I've been looking at the grizzley and JET ones like this one http://cgi.ebay.com/Jet-321155K-BD-920W-9-X-20-Lathe-With-Stand_W0QQitemZ350272471712QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518dddc2a0# Any recommendations on where to buy? Any advice is very appreciated. Ty- |
|
Ones like that are like the Smithy lathes are are not what you are looking for. They have shit for power. You can not take a depth of cut worth your time. I am a production machinist with almost 15 yrs experience and have experience on modern cnc machines, older engine and turret lathes and a buddies Smithy which I can stop dead in its tracks w/o even trying. If you are serious save your money for something bigger in the $3000 dollar range. Your money.
|
|
For light use, a 9X20 from Harbor Freight will do the job as long as you aren't wanting to work on barrels longer than 16" or so. I use a Jet 9X20 and it does a good job. For a lathe/mill combo I'd probably check out Smithy machines. If you get a cheap machine be sure to check out the replacement tool posts and compounds on Ebay. I've got them made by A2Z Machine and it's made a huge difference.
|
|
Quoted:
Ones like that are like the Smithy lathes are are not what you are looking for. They have shit for power. You can not take a depth of cut worth your time. I am a production machinist with almost 15 yrs experience and have experience on modern cnc machines, older engine and turret lathes and a buddies Smithy which I can stop dead in its tracks w/o even trying. If you are serious save your money for something bigger in the $3000 dollar range. Your money. Grizzley makes a gunsmith lathe for like $6500? I think that's probably going to be a decent machine. If not that, some old engine lathe for like $3500, but those are damn hard to find now that a bunch of people drove them to Mexico by the truckload for a decade or so when Mexico was buying them up. Most of the old engine lathes that filled shop space and needed to be liquidated as CNC equipment replaced them have been sold and finding one now is hard. By the way, it's not just shit for power, it's shit for rigidity also. All that "we use castings so our 300lb machine is comparable to a ton" is a load of bullshit. The light machines will vibrate like hell, break and wear out tools, and make crappy surface finishes. They will require light cuts and like River rat said, they'll have you for $100 worth of time doing $25 worth of work. It's not worth the trouble messing with crappy little import machines. |
|
watch your local craigslist like a hawk and find one that comes with all the extra crap
believe me you're going to want/ need them and finding them after the fact is a nightmare find some old american iron and stay away from the chink bullshit also check out this place just for fun: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/ |
|
The smallest and least expensive that I would go with would be the Enco 9x20. It will run off 115V. The advantage of the Enco over things like the Harbor Freight (Horrible Fright) is that you can order replacement parts, and fix it yourself. Better if you have the room and power to get the 12x36. Again, stay with the brand name stuff and you will have parts availability and support. Some of the India and cheap China made lathes are put together strangely, and if you need to replace broken or worn parts . . . well I hope you have extra skin for your knuckles and large bottles of extra strength patience.
|
|
Little stuff like that has no spindle bore- like.75" - 7/8" spindle bore capacity. That's horrible. You can't even chuck a piece of 1" stock without it being saw cut to a small length.
|
|
We bought a used South Bend Big 10, delivered, with a bunch of tooling and accessories, for $3000. We had to have an inverter installed in the garage to handle three-phase power requirement.
It's not a CNC, but it's a workhorse and gets the jobs done. It's over 50 years old now, and will probably still be running long after we're dead. |
|
Somebody who isn't a machinst, and may only use the lathe a few times a year, probably won't have to figure in the extra time needed because they have to take lighter cuts. I wouldn't waste my time on a china made lathe if I were opening a shop or planning on using it on a regular basis, but if a guy is only planning on making a few cans for his self, I don't see where spending another digit in cost is going to justify the investment. I go out to my shop and start up the Jet lathe a couple times a year, and use a XY table with a vice instead of investing in a mill for my occasional milling functions. When you have a lot more time and flexibility than financial resources, you can end up ahead by selecting the cheaper machine. It seems like there are a lot of people here that have tons of money to toss around on whatever they want, and seem to knock anything less than what they feel is up to their standards. There are some of us here, who on the other hand, have to get by with what we can afford, and put a little more time into using something that will just get the job done. I actually enjoy seeing what I can come up with using my limited resources. I would suggest that if somebody were going to buy a cheap import machine, they should buy it new, since most of the machines I've seen used are not much cheaper than the new ones, and are usually problems that somebody wants to get rid of.
|
|
Quoted:
Somebody who isn't a machinst, and may only use the lathe a few times a year, probably won't have to figure in the extra time needed because they have to take lighter cuts. I wouldn't waste my time on a china made lathe if I were opening a shop or planning on using it on a regular basis, but if a guy is only planning on making a few cans for his self, I don't see where spending another digit in cost is going to justify the investment. I go out to my shop and start up the Jet lathe a couple times a year, and use a XY table with a vice instead of investing in a mill for my occasional milling functions. When you have a lot more time and flexibility than financial resources, you can end up ahead by selecting the cheaper machine. It seems like there are a lot of people here that have tons of money to toss around on whatever they want, and seem to knock anything less than what they feel is up to their standards. There are some of us here, who on the other hand, have to get by with what we can afford, and put a little more time into using something that will just get the job done. I actually enjoy seeing what I can come up with using my limited resources. I would suggest that if somebody were going to buy a cheap import machine, they should buy it new, since most of the machines I've seen used are not much cheaper than the new ones, and are usually problems that somebody wants to get rid of. IMHO the one advantage of a larger lathe is more HP available - specifically to allow the user to run carbide tooling. It is tough enough to learn how to run a lathe - and frikin impossible if you have to grind and harden your own HSS tools with no real guidance. Open the box of carbide and screw one on. Real simple. And light lathes are a curse upon humanity. I ditched a 10"x24" soon after I got it, moved up to some 16x18s, and finally got a keeper in my 21x72" Monarch toolroom lathe. I love running that thing more than the CNCs... It's so sweet. |
|
Quoted:
Somebody who isn't a machinst, and may only use the lathe a few times a year, probably won't have to figure in the extra time needed because they have to take lighter cuts. I wouldn't waste my time on a china made lathe if I were opening a shop or planning on using it on a regular basis, but if a guy is only planning on making a few cans for his self, I don't see where spending another digit in cost is going to justify the investment. I go out to my shop and start up the Jet lathe a couple times a year, and use a XY table with a vice instead of investing in a mill for my occasional milling functions. When you have a lot more time and flexibility than financial resources, you can end up ahead by selecting the cheaper machine. It seems like there are a lot of people here that have tons of money to toss around on whatever they want, and seem to knock anything less than what they feel is up to their standards. There are some of us here, who on the other hand, have to get by with what we can afford, and put a little more time into using something that will just get the job done. I actually enjoy seeing what I can come up with using my limited resources. I would suggest that if somebody were going to buy a cheap import machine, they should buy it new, since most of the machines I've seen used are not much cheaper than the new ones, and are usually problems that somebody wants to get rid of. The problem is that the small cheap machines do not have the runout capability required to make a good can. Nor do they have the ability to handle large enough tooling to do the job correctly with good tooling. Then there is the fact that the tailstock on the cheap machines are literally junk when it comes to true precision. Precision is something I do know about. I regularly run tolerances of .0005" and .0004" almost on a daily basis and on heat treated steels from 1045 to 4140 to forgings. A tolerance of .001" is gravy to me. |
|
I had a CNC hobby lathe once and I found it very marginally adequate for turning aluminum, but parting and grooving operations were ridiculous- it would vibrate and make tons of noise and sometimes even snap brand new carbide inserts from Kennemetal even with aluminum, unless the feed was perfect and flood coolant kept aimed at the tool 100% of the time. The flood coolant of course is not enclosed so you're going to be wearing it, and it's going to be on the floor and the walls and ceiling. Basically without running carbide it was worthless to me, and it would turn stainless but a parting operation would literally stop the spindle, so unless you want to cut off parts with the hack saw and face them on the back side, you're screwed if you plan to cut anything harder than 6061. In stainless it would make a .025" cut on the diameter, and in aluminum .050. So you'd make a part on it in about 7 minutes that a HAAS (A relatively entry level industry CNC turning center) would spit out in 45 seconds. And the HASS part would be held to possibly even .0005" and the part it would make would be held to about .010" even possibly on the diameter where it's most critical.
The backlash on the machines is bad. Like .010" being fairly normal, and that means precision is going to drop off, as well as chatter and broken bits become more common, basically people who are going to use a crappy hobby lathe to make a silencer would be better off buying one from a company in business making quality silencers. If you don't have $3500 and time to wait for a great buy on some old iron in good running order, or $6500 for a grizzley gunsmith lathe, or $4500-$6500 for a running but aged out CNC turning center, my recommendation is to just not get involved. Unfortunately making good parts is going to be damn near impossible on a cheap lathe. You'll have to at best compromise on materials and use something like brass instead of 17-4 PH, and at worst you're going to become frustrated and compromise on part dimensions and end up with a unit that looks like a 75% grade on a technical school shop project. The worst part is after the $750-$1250 hobby lathe and $750-$3500 in fixturing equipment, measuring tools, and cutting tools, you'll have spent enough money to buy good silencers and you'll have crap silencers to show for it. By comparison a buddy of mine has an old crappy American lathe that's huge and it will take .300" on the diameter in steel without chattering. Cutting stainless steel like carving soap and moving the handles like an etch-a-sketch not really even trying to get proper feeds. The HAAS will do .300 in aluminum and .150 in stainless probably. That guy's family owns a company that makes pumping stations and that lathe was used when they bought it 50 years ago, and has turned tens of thousands of impellers to size, and it's ugly as sin, but it's a workhorse, despite abuses of dozens of people not formally trained to operate lathes, it soldiers on making better work than a brand new hobby lathe and cutting like a hobby lathe couldn't dream of cutting. The hobby lathe was really built to "optimistically cut" aluminum. It's more aimed at plastic, delrin, and lighter materials. The larger machines mentioned were designed to cut steels. There is a huge difference there. |
|
Wow, I guess the form 1 cans that I have built on my cheap Jet lathe are flukes? I wouldn't claim that I could keep up with the "big dogs" here, but with my limited vocational school training and a short time working in a machine shop in the early 90's, I've been able to build a few cans that perform about the same as the high dollar commercial cans that I've bought. For me, the time spent in the shop is just a getaway where I'm not being bothered. There is no pressure to get the parts done in metered times, and although I have to spend more time by taking more frequent measurements, I haven't had any issues with building something that meets practical tolerences. For me, it all comes down to the satisfaction I feel when I'm able to use something that I can say that I built, especially with limited resources.
|
|
Quoted:
Wow, I guess the form 1 cans that I have built on my cheap Jet lathe are flukes? I wouldn't claim that I could keep up with the "big dogs" here, but with my limited vocational school training and a short time working in a machine shop in the early 90's, I've been able to build a few cans that perform about the same as the high dollar commercial cans that I've bought. For me, the time spent in the shop is just a getaway where I'm not being bothered. There is no pressure to get the parts done in metered times, and although I have to spend more time by taking more frequent measurements, I haven't had any issues with building something that meets practical tolerences. For me, it all comes down to the satisfaction I feel when I'm able to use something that I can say that I built, especially with limited resources. The OP started with "I know very little about lathes", not "vocational school training and a short time working in a machine shop". If you had no familiaritiy, how long wout it take you playing with a lightweight import lathe and a box of HSS to get discouraged ? |
|
Quoted:
Wow, I guess the form 1 cans that I have built on my cheap Jet lathe are flukes? I wouldn't claim that I could keep up with the "big dogs" here, but with my limited vocational school training and a short time working in a machine shop in the early 90's, I've been able to build a few cans that perform about the same as the high dollar commercial cans that I've bought. For me, the time spent in the shop is just a getaway where I'm not being bothered. There is no pressure to get the parts done in metered times, and although I have to spend more time by taking more frequent measurements, I haven't had any issues with building something that meets practical tolerences. For me, it all comes down to the satisfaction I feel when I'm able to use something that I can say that I built, especially with limited resources. A piece of PVC pipe filled with aluminum screen sounds good. That's not to say it's quality and utility compares to a Gemtech Outback II. If you have 50 hours to make a can, you might be able to do something with similar tolerances (might). You'd have to pay a minimum anodizing fee of like $150 to get the one off anodized though... so all I'm saying is being a tinkerer isn't always promoting more value. I once competed three 80% Ar receivers on a mini mill. But that took like a week of my work, and in the end the result wasn't industry quality, though the receivers did work. Factor even $12 an hour which for machining parts is like minimum wage, and I invested $480 worth of time, $350 worth of tooling, and 3 $405 worth of 80% receivers in the project so they were $411 not industry quality receivers when I finished it. Unless you have the lathe, you need various chucks (maybe collets) some measuring tools (mics, depth mic, caliper, thread mics) a wide assortment of cutting tools etc, by the time you have what you need to make a good go at it, you're into it in thousands of dollars, not just the $1275 Jet mini lathe which is already expensive. Can someone make his own silencer? Of course he can. In the same way I could make my own $411 AR receiver. Now if somebody died and left you a bridgeport and a south bend lathe and $7500-$10K in tooling and you know how to use it- absolutely you can make your own silencer AND save money doing it. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow, I guess the form 1 cans that I have built on my cheap Jet lathe are flukes? I wouldn't claim that I could keep up with the "big dogs" here, but with my limited vocational school training and a short time working in a machine shop in the early 90's, I've been able to build a few cans that perform about the same as the high dollar commercial cans that I've bought. For me, the time spent in the shop is just a getaway where I'm not being bothered. There is no pressure to get the parts done in metered times, and although I have to spend more time by taking more frequent measurements, I haven't had any issues with building something that meets practical tolerences. For me, it all comes down to the satisfaction I feel when I'm able to use something that I can say that I built, especially with limited resources. The OP started with "I know very little about lathes", not "vocational school training and a short time working in a machine shop". If you had no familiaritiy, how long wout it take you playing with a lightweight import lathe and a box of HSS to get discouraged ? Without training, you probably wouldn't know how to grind a cutting tool so that would be a discouraging deal... but if you had indexable cutters, an understanding of the basic theory of operation, and a high tolerance for poor quality designs and garage gunsmithing, you might be perfectly happy with results. In the 60's-70's silencer companies were using cap screws to attach end caps on silencers. That's a less than optimal way to do that, and it's as ugly as it is relatively weak compared to threads or circumferential welding, but it nevertheless has a proven track record for having worked and it is within the skills of someone relatively inexperienced as a machinist. I guess you could build one with less tooling and equipment by designing it around that lack of equipment. With a lathe, two pieces of tubing, a bar of round stock, one outside turning tool, one parting tool, three drill bits, two taps, 8-15 cap screws, an allen wrench, and a hack saw, and some judicious application of elbow grease hacking it all up, you could make a silencer. So I guess I was just thinking in terms of making something market competitive, and not in terms of replicating some 14" long design from the 70's. |
|
Quoted:
With a lathe, two pieces of tubing, a bar of round stock, one outside turning tool, one parting tool, three drill bits, two taps, 8-15 cap screws, an allen wrench, and a hack saw, and some judicious application of elbow grease hacking it all up, you could make a silencer. So I guess I was just thinking in terms of making something market competitive, and not in terms of replicating some 14" long design from the 70's. Wow, it looks like some folks would like people to believe that they can't make anything worth a crap without spending a fortune on equipment. I'm guessing that it could be in hopes that the person considering building their own would be moved to purchase something commercially made. Is it a coincident that some whoe are commenting ARE commercial entities? Here is something I built on a form 1 using an inexpensive lathe. For what it's worth, there are no cap screws in the design, and the entire barrel including the permanent suppressor is 16.2". To make it worse, I used a $7 airbrush to apply the Molyresin (I guess I should have just used Krylon?), but I guess I should have gone out and spent $100 on a Badger since I'm sure there is an airbrush snob here somewhere who doesn't think that a good finish can be applied by anything less. The end caps are interference fit with blind pins as a precaution. The 10/22 is quiet enough that all you here is the bolt and a click when the firing pin strikes. http://home.comcast.net/~tractiongrips/pwpimages/ten22suppressed.jpg You can make a 10/22 sound like a pellet gun with a piece of tubing capped somehow on one end, threaded on the other and some window screen. A hacksaw, hand drill and a couple taps will make one. Not necessarily quality but workable. So what have you actually proved? |
|
Quoted:
I know very little about lathes but am the kind of guy that just likes to jump in and get my feet wet. If I get good enough I'll send in a check to the ATF and try my hand at a form 1 suppressor. Is there really any reason to buy one larger then 20" to start out with? What about one with a mill combo? I've been looking at the grizzley and JET ones like this one..... Exactly what the original post was asking about. The one I showed in the picture was made on a Jet, which was specifically mention by name before all of the comments making it sound like it is impossible. I've seen laughable silencers being used on youtube that were made out of all sorts of crazy things, like pvc pipe and other weird stuff, but I've been able to make cans that look great, and function extremely well. My last project was a removable .22 model and the most difficult thing involved was finding a metric tap. It's not like these things are rocket science, and it's pretty much as easy as copying a design somebody has already proven to work. If you were to see the shop space and equipment that I have you'd probably laugh, but anybody who's gone shooting with me seems impressed with the end product. No super expensive machine, no expensive finishing, and no expensive engraving. A $25 bottle of molyresin will go a long way, and engraving only costs $8 locally. For a larger caliber device I can get a friend to TIG weld a nice bead around the end cap and threaded interface. I won't claim that I can make something as pretty as some of the fancy ones out there, and I'm not comfortable enough with my skill to try rifle calibers right now, but as far as making something useful with the equipment the original post mentioned, it's very much possible regardless of what others may believe. |
|
Tank you guys so much for all the replies. I really did not think it would turn out to be such a heated debate. Seems that people are pretty passionate about their opinions on lathes. One thing no one mentioned (at least I did not see) is size. I would love to have a 40 X 100 shop in my back yard but that is just not the case. I am sort of a jack of many trades and already have a detached shop full to the gills with just about anything you could think of and still have to keep thinks like a sheet metal break and shear (Old heavy american made monsters.. green0 would be proud) at my office because I just have no room at home.
I have been looking for a used lathe suitable for gunsmith duty (I am an 01 FFL) but they seem to be far and few between and really would be overkill for how little it would be used. I think I'll look some more for an old dinosaur (I'd love a 3 phase monster!) but if nothing comes up in the next months I'll probably just buy the Jet...... If I really get into it maybe I start to save up for a big boy that will sit at the office Thanks again Ty- |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.